Uniforms - formal vs. informal?

Hadders · 14 Jul 2019

Getting back to rail uniforms...

I was caught up in the Preston area disruption last night. I had a 6 minute connection at Bolton but the train I was changing to there was cancelled. Failure to get this train would put my connection at Manchester Piccadilly onto the last Virgin service to Euston at serious risk.

I asked the guard what I should do as we approached Bolton, he was excellent in looking up a couple of alternative options. I made it to Piccadilly in time for my train south.

The guard was wearing shorts and a polo shirt. It was quite clear who he was, he didn’t need to be wearing a tie, waistcoat or jacket to do his job.

I’d much rather have substance over style any day.

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8J · 14 Jul 2019

I think that the uniforms need to be less off a miss match. One thing that I find really odd is that some TOCs issue their staff with a smart, quite formal uniform and then issue them with completely over the top steel toe capped ankle boots which make them look like they are about to go off and fight a war. These are simply not a requirement for guards, drivers or operational station staff any more. Fitters and depot staff I can understand the need for them but for train crew and station staff they are well over the top and look out of place plus there has been a number of cases that I'm aware of where company issued footwear has caused damage to people's feet so much so that they've had to have ankle surgery!

On the other hand, my TOC allows me to wear polo shirts and shorts but the issues me with frilly brogues that look totally out of place with the rest of my uniform. They do stipulate that you can wear your own shoes so long as they have a non slip sole and look professional. You just can't win sometimes!

Bennski · 16 Jul 2019

As for station staff I know in my experience that if your wearing a hi-vis it's the most identifiable thing you could possibly wear. Everyone, sees that as the authority figure on the platform and I have seen on-board staff waiting on the platform in full uniform be blanked and ignored either because people think they are not staff or they see the person in hi-vis. So in terms of what is the best uniform? A hi-vis in my experience. I take it off as soon as I'm done with work as you get 20 questions before you reach the exit if I keep it on. Hi-vis with company logo or train dispatcher on the back is the best in my opinion.

Sprinter153 · 16 Jul 2019

That’s an interesting view because for a lot of the agencies that TOCs use for revenue and (increasingly) dispatch roles, the uniform is just a hi-vis and just ‘generic smart’ clothing underneath.

Bennski · 16 Jul 2019

That's how it is at my place. They give you full uniform and suit and tie but its far more comfortable to wear the smart casual stuff they give us and throw a hi-vis over the top. Still looks smart and not scruffy at all and it helps customers far more especially tourists. For customer facing roles I find uniforms which stand out and are easy to spot the best. Virgin and LNER have a good one with their red jackets granted not the best but they do stand out on a platform not as easily as a hi-vis though.

island · 16 Jul 2019

bramling said:
At my location shorts are not permitted to be worn when going on the track, with paper trousers being issued to cover this possibility. Always presumed this was universal, at least for those with live rails?

Yes, I thought so. Wasn’t there a driver who tragically died a few years back whilst inspecting his train in shorts in 3rd rail land because he inadvertently grounded himself on the buffer while contacting the live rail in shorts?

FelixtheCat said:
It's interesting to look at how railways in other countries do uniforms. In France, the conductors and other on-board staff were uniforms (the conductors especially seem to have very strict policies). However, the drivers seem to turn up in pretty much whatever they want (t-shirt and shorts). I assume that they can't wear certain things, but it seems that the policy is very relaxed for drivers in France.

It being France, I imagine if there was a strict or pointless policy enforced it would be everybody out.

tsr · 16 Jul 2019

8J said:
I think that the uniforms need to be less off a miss match. One thing that I find really odd is that some TOCs issue their staff with a smart, quite formal uniform and then issue them with completely over the top steel toe capped ankle boots which make them look like they are about to go off and fight a war. These are simply not a requirement for guards, drivers or operational station staff any more. Fitters and depot staff I can understand the need for them but for train crew and station staff they are well over the top and look out of place plus there has been a number of cases that I'm aware of where company issued footwear has caused damage to people's feet so much so that they've had to have ankle surgery!

On the other hand, my TOC allows me to wear polo shirts and shorts but the issues me with frilly brogues that look totally out of place with the rest of my uniform. They do stipulate that you can wear your own shoes so long as they have a non slip sole and look professional. You just can't win sometimes!

Steel* toe capped boots have saved me from injury on more than a few occasions on trains and stations, and indeed in all sorts of random environments where people have laughed at the need to wear them. In the railway environment, I’ve typically found they do a decent job protecting against wheelchair ramps (which are pretty awkward and heavy depending on the rolling stock concerned) and rogue catering trolleys.

Don’t forget that the standards for protective footwear also mandate other features which are really quite useful. Most boots and shoes used on the railway should be “SRC” category, and they should have a certain level of waterproofing (useful if you work in a traditional yard or depot!) and slip resistance (useful if you ever have to walk on metal surfaces such as cab steps on BR units, or on various types of raised walkways beside sidings).

Personally, I find a decent pair of protective boots to be no less comfortable than your average walking boots, but then I’ve had to use them for a long time. I get a choice of about 12 types when I renew them, which I’m allowed to do whenever I want, and just don’t order ones with a bad press amongst my colleagues.

*composite materials available...

vikingdriver · 16 Jul 2019

island said:
Yes, I thought so. Wasn’t there a driver who tragically died a few years back whilst inspecting his train in shorts in 3rd rail land because he inadvertently grounded himself on the buffer while contacting the live rail in shorts?

If this is even true, company issue trousers wouldn't make any difference to the outcome. The railway likes to learn from its mistakes so if shorts were responsible for the death of an employee, it is unlikely that they would still be worn - yet they still are. SWR, GWR both operate over 3rd rail and both allow drivers to wear shorts.

bramling · 16 Jul 2019

Bennski said:
As for station staff I know in my experience that if your wearing a hi-vis it's the most identifiable thing you could possibly wear. Everyone, sees that as the authority figure on the platform and I have seen on-board staff waiting on the platform in full uniform be blanked and ignored either because people think they are not staff or they see the person in hi-vis. So in terms of what is the best uniform? A hi-vis in my experience. I take it off as soon as I'm done with work as you get 20 questions before you reach the exit if I keep it on. Hi-vis with company logo or train dispatcher on the back is the best in my opinion.

This is so true. It always amazes me how thick some people are in that if some random person in a hi-vi told them to stop breathing for two minutes they probably would.

Bennski · 16 Jul 2019

bramling said:
This is so true. It always amazes me how thick some people are in that if some random person in a hi-vi told them to stop breathing for two minutes they probably would.

Oh yes, its like when you put a hi-vis on in a station you see a whole another side to people. I have never been asked the same question in my time working on the platform which is surprising. And honestly when Im out and about and need to ask someone something I am looking for someone in a hi-vis normally, which is either good or bad habit I dont know...

adrock1976 · 16 Jul 2019

vikingdriver said:
If this is even true, company issue trousers wouldn't make any difference to the outcome. The railway likes to learn from its mistakes so if shorts were responsible for the death of an employee, it is unlikely that they would still be worn - yet they still are. SWR, GWR both operate over 3rd rail and both allow drivers to wear shorts.

Although a slight sideways move into infrastructure, could somebody tell me where exactly is third rail DC electrification on GWR metals?

The only place I can think of is the present day Merseyrail Chester - Liverpool via Birkenhead route, and it has been many years since the Great Western Railway headed in that direction.

Dieseldriver · 16 Jul 2019

adrock1976 said:
Although a slight sideways move into infrastructure, could somebody tell me where exactly is third rail DC electrification on GWR metals?

The only place I can think of is the present day Merseyrail Chester - Liverpool via Birkenhead route, and it has been many years since the Great Western Railway headed in that direction.

Umm Southampton area to Brighton and Portsmouth, Dorchester to Weymouth, Basingstoke, Reading and Gatwick

High Dyke · 16 Jul 2019

The Mem is really looking forward to wearing the new East Midlands Railway uniform...when they change over operator. The Blue EMT wear isn't bad, but no doubt it will come down to the supplier.

It makes little difference to me on many days about uniform. There's only so many ways you can have hi-viz orange.

island · 16 Jul 2019

vikingdriver said:
If this is even true

It is.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/547c9048e5274a42900001bf/R142007_070529_Deal.pdf

A little assumption of good faith in other members goes a long way.

mde · 17 Jul 2019

MotCO said:
I was also unfortunatly in A&E recently. I could not tell who were the doctors and who were the nurses - no two people seemed to wear the same 'uniform'. Surely this should be clear?

In Scotland that particular issue doesn't exist as there is a national uniform (with varying shades of blue for clinical staff [except clinical nurse managers - burgundy], and, non-clinical staff wearing one of two shades of green). If you see someone with a NHS badge who isn't wearing the standard uniform, chances are they are a doctor or another form of specialist; or, the person from IT fixing the computer.

With that being said though, would the average patient necessarily know what the colours mean? Probably not. If in doubt just ask someone - if it's not their job they'll know whose it is.

Spinning this back into a rail context - I present the ridiculous scenario of Network Rail's uniform for the mobility staff at major stations. In some, a new uniform consisting of a dark purple hi-vi tabard is used, in others, a yellow/blue combination hi-vi tabard is used, and, in others - it's yellow or nothing. Far from presenting an easy to locate member of staff, it's a mishmash of confusion, which, is largely unnecessary.

In any case, purple might not be the best choice of colour - will it stick out sufficiently? And, with such a generic title "Network Rail Customer Assistant" printed on the back, will passengers actually know what the person does? Hint - they can't necessarily help you with ticketing! 8-)

philthetube · 17 Jul 2019

bramling said:
If someone can manually secure nine sets of points in a complex area during torrential rain with traction current live whilst happily wearing a shirt and tie then there’s really no excuse on a practical level why passenger-facing staff can’t wear same.

I imagine someone wearing a polo shirt and shorts would look far smarter than someone in a shirt and tie and nicely pressed trousers after having done this work.

LowLevel said:
If I have to work on a class 158 with failed air conditioning I should be able to wear whatever I wish or fail the train. Funnily enough large numbers of our crews in last year's lengthy heat wave were denied the right to wear shorts (unlike sister TOCs previously who had the same uniform because it didn't make the corporate brand) and therefore refused to set foot on any unit with failed air conditioning which caused mass train cancellations. At one point a certain hub station was littered with trains which drivers and guards had flat refused to work on and that was that.

If the company refuses to accept that trains can be failed because of cab temperature always point out to managers on recorded lines that you are finding working in these conditions distracting, and watch the bricks drop as they realise that they would have at least part responsibility for any incidents.

LowLevel said:
I wear steel toe boots because as a guard on occasion I end up on the track or having things dropped on my feet.

Not in third rail area I hope.

/QUOTE]

theironroad said:

Paper? Must be pretty thick to have any insulating properties. Or just so the drivers don't get any of that ballast dust on their manicured legs? Lol

Click to expand...

Paper trousers dont insulate, however they provide an extra layer before the skin, usually with an air gap between the two, so protecting against accidental brushing with live rails. They also provide protection when legs are hairy and sweaty, that combination is a very good conductor or electricity to the skin.

island said:

Yes, I thought so. Wasn’t there a driver who tragically died a few years back whilst inspecting his train in shorts in 3rd rail land because he inadvertently grounded himself on the buffer while contacting the live rail in shorts?

What that driver did wrong was to touch the third rail, although you see people doing it you should never step on the third rail whatever footwear you have on, you cannot be sure that you haven't previously trodden on a nail.

Click to expand...

LowLevel · 17 Jul 2019

philthetube said:
I imagine someone wearing a polo shirt and shorts would look far smarter than someone in a shirt and tie and nicely pressed trousers after having done this work.

If the company refuses to accept that trains can be failed because of cab temperature always point out to managers on recorded lines that you are finding working in these conditions distracting, and watch the bricks drop as they realise that they would have at least part responsibility for any incidents.

I say steel toe but they're not really, whatever modern equivalent is (they aren't a cheap pair either).

philthetube · 17 Jul 2019

LowLevel said:
I say steel toe but they're not really, whatever modern equivalent is (they aren't a cheap pair either).

The normal modern equivalent is carbon fibre, but that is as bad as steel, I am sure something else is available though.

LowLevel · 17 Jul 2019

philthetube said:
The normal modern equivalent is carbon fibre, but that is as bad as steel, I am sure something else is available though.

Not a clue! It shouldn't matter with third rail anyway as long as you don't stand on the bugger :lol:

C J Snarzell · 11 Aug 2019

Hi there

I wanted to ask a question about the uniform policy for TOCs.

I understand that certainly frontline staff wear uniforms to represent their respective company but I believe certain office based roles don't wear uniforms.

I read through an old railway magazine not so long back (which had been left in a historic pile in my local barbers) and there was an interview with a guy based at Railhouse in Liverpool and he was dressed in his own shirt and tie. I think he was working for Merseyrail. He wasn't one of the top managers, I believe the magazine interviews random employees each month about their careers in the rail industry.

I've been applying for office based jobs with Northern and Virgin and I was curious to know whether every employee is subject to wearing uniform or if certain roles require you to wear your own formal attire?

I was in the police for 15 years and took pride in my appearance. I was disappointed when the force I worked for ditched the white shirt and pressed trousers in favour of shoddy combat pants and cheap cycling tops about ten years ago.

C J

hooverboy · 11 Aug 2019

tsr said:
Steel* toe capped boots have saved me from injury on more than a few occasions on trains and stations, and indeed in all sorts of random environments where people have laughed at the need to wear them. In the railway environment, I’ve typically found they do a decent job protecting against wheelchair ramps (which are pretty awkward and heavy depending on the rolling stock concerned) and rogue catering trolleys.

Don’t forget that the standards for protective footwear also mandate other features which are really quite useful. Most boots and shoes used on the railway should be “SRC” category, and they should have a certain level of waterproofing (useful if you work in a traditional yard or depot!) and slip resistance (useful if you ever have to walk on metal surfaces such as cab steps on BR units, or on various types of raised walkways beside sidings).

Personally, I find a decent pair of protective boots to be no less comfortable than your average walking boots, but then I’ve had to use them for a long time. I get a choice of about 12 types when I renew them, which I’m allowed to do whenever I want, and just don’t order ones with a bad press amongst my colleagues.

*composite materials available...

indeed.
train crew may well have to scramble up and down from train to ballast level in case of an emergency,might have wheelchairs to deal with, potential crush risks to feet, potential sharp edges to exposed limbs and so on.The uniform should be designed to protect as far as possible,while still being presentable and functional.

PPE standards should be observed.Health and safety mandates this for a reason- it's a bit overzealous sometimes but the reasoning is sound.

they don't have to look like doctor martens either.
You can get some very decent looking either walking boot style or trainer style workshoes .
In fact I use these in my job, reinforced (not steel)toecaps and ESD protective.They are extremely useful .

ivanhoe · 11 Aug 2019

As a poster has said, substance over style. As long as passengers can tell whom the guard/train manager is, fine with me. We do have s tendency in this Country to hark back to long lost days.

pint · 11 Aug 2019

The days of stuffy shirt, ties, pressed trousers, shiny shoes and the so called formal look should be behind us, I not bothered if the uniform consisted of converse, jeans and a T shirt ( or any other casual type mix) Get it right and it could be easily identifiable in corporate colours

greatkingrat · 11 Aug 2019

C J Snarzell said:
Hi there

I wanted to ask a question about the uniform policy for TOCs.

I understand that certainly frontline staff wear uniforms to represent their respective company but I believe certain office based roles don't wear uniforms.

I read through an old railway magazine not so long back (which had been left in a historic pile in my local barbers) and there was an interview with a guy based at Railhouse in Liverpool and he was dressed in his own shirt and tie. I think he was working for Merseyrail. He wasn't one of the top managers, I believe the magazine interviews random employees each month about their careers in the rail industry.

I've been applying for office based jobs with Northern and Virgin and I was curious to know whether every employee is subject to wearing uniform or if certain roles require you to wear your own formal attire?

I was in the police for 15 years and took pride in my appearance. I was disappointed when the force I worked for ditched the white shirt and pressed trousers in favour of shoddy combat pants and cheap cycling tops about ten years ago.

C J

Generally office based staff will just wear normal business attire, same as anywhere else, how formal that is will depend on the company.

Amanda · 11 Aug 2019

Bletchleyite said:
I can see an issue with names (e.g. someone identifying a member of staff outside work and attacking or otherwise abusing them), but I would certainly support the idea of "PCV badges", i.e. a badge with a unique identification number such that a member of staff can be identified in the event of a complaint being necessary.

Or if you like things formal, numbered epaulettes?

I realise I'm replying to something from 8 pages ago but when I work for an airline call centre we were allowed to withhold our surnames but give out a two-letter reference which was specific to that individual in that call centre. Passengers were often still unhappy about that but as long as the individual can be identified by the employer, they have no right to know anything more. I worked there just before the boom in social media and it horrifies me nowadays to see people with their whole names on display. (I can understand it when you get further up the chain of command.)

I will add that at that aforementioned call centre, a demented passenger actually did show up there looking for one of the supervisors, asking everyone going into the building if they knew "Colin". When challenged by security he admitted he'd travelled all the way from Essex to Newcastle just to duff him up. o_O

bnm · 11 Aug 2019

DarloRich said:
A waistcoat should never be seen without a jacket.

Who died and made you chief of fashion police?

Snooker players been wearing them wrong all these years?!

My previous employer preferred my wearing of a waistcoat sans jacket.

Uniforms - formal vs. informal?

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