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Promise to Pay dispute.

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alan collins

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I travelled from Cheadle Hulme to Bolton in January.

I have always paid on the train or at Piccadilly on the dozen or so times Ive made the same journey, I got to Piccadilly and got in the queue to buy my ticket, when I got to the front of the queue I asked for a ticket from Cheadle Hulme to Bolton with money in my hand, but was issued a fine because I didn't have a promise to pay card.

I accepted the fine explaining I was in a good mood cos of my medication, Promazine, which is an anti psychotic, and a sedative. I understand if I'm intoxicated and the collector is aware of this, I am exempt. Is this true? Am I not exempt as I tried to buy a ticket at an intermediate station, not my final destination?

Ive a court date in 10 days, all advice welcome!
 
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thejuggler

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If you are in court find a lawyer who understands railway law and can test the legality of Promise to Pay.
 

yorkie

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I travelled from Cheadle Hulme to Bolton in January.

I have always paid on the train or at Piccadilly on the dozen or so times Ive made the same journey, I got to Piccadilly and got in the queue to buy my ticket, when I got to the front of the queue I asked for a ticket from Cheadle Hulme to Bolton with money in my hand, but was issued a fine because I didn't have a promise to pay card.
Are you in court because you refused to pay the fine?

Was the ticket office closed when you made the journey? If it was, were the ticket machines card only?

If you had no opportunity to pay until Manchester, you have a good case.

Also did you have sufficient time to queue for a ticket in Manchester? Did this cause you to miss a train to Bolton?
 

alan collins

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If you are in court find a lawyer who understands railway law and can test the legality of Promise to Pay.
I can't get legal aid so I'm going to represent myself unless I find a duty solicitor with extensive experience in this. I sincerely doubt I will find one. Thank you for your help, I need it.
 

Bertie the bus

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If you are in court find a lawyer who understands railway law and can test the legality of Promise to Pay.
How would that help? Cheadle Hulme has a ticket office so even if they won on the Promise to Pay point they would still lose as they didn't purchase a ticket prior to boarding when the facility existed. Seems like throwing money away to me.
 

alan collins

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Are you in court because you refused to pay the fine?

Was the ticket office closed when you made the journey? If it was, were the ticket machines card only?

If you had no opportunity to pay until Manchester, you have a good case.

Also did you have sufficient time to queue for a ticket in Manchester? Did this cause you to miss a train to Bolton?

Yes I appealed asking when I entered into this promise to pay contract as the legal definition is a contract 2 parties agree and enter into which I didn't. Contract law is one of my defences.

Office was closed and no cash payments at machine.

I'm not sure if I missed the next train, I have to over medicate myself to travel around so many people.

How would that help? Cheadle Hulme has a ticket office so even if they won on the Promise to Pay point they would still lose as they didn't purchase a ticket prior to boarding when the facility existed. Seems like throwing money away to me.
No staff at ticket office.

Also states that the p2p is void if passenger intoxicated and told collector. I did
 

yorkie

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You did not ever enter into a "promise to pay contract". The National Rail Conditions of Travel do not require you to obtain a promise to pay; it's something Northern have invented but it has no contractual or legal basis.

As there was no facility to buy your ticket at the origin, you are entitled to board without a ticket.

How did you get to Bolton? Were you sold a ticket from Manchester or Cheadle Hulme in the end? Did you make a single or return journey?
 

gray1404

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I think it would be helpful if we can establish the facts of this case.

You stated your journey at Cheadle Hulme. What day of the week was this and what time of day was it? You say that there were no staff at the ticket office and the ticket machine at the station was not accepting cash. If this is true then you did not have an opportunity to purchase before travel. Please also confirm that you had no opportunity to purchase on board the train? If so, then you should have been sold the ticket for your journey when you requested such in Manchester.

You said that you received a fine. This is not correct. Only a court can issue a fine. It sounds like you were issued with a Penalty Fare of £20? Is that right? If so, did you pay this or appeal it? If indeed you ignored it is that why you are being taken to court by Northern?

Please can you confirm exactly why you are being taken to court. It will have said what the charge is on the summons.
 

alan collins

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You did not ever enter into a "promise to pay contract". The National Rail Conditions of Travel do not require you to obtain a promise to pay; it's something Northern have invented but it has no contractual or legal basis.

As there was no facility to buy your ticket at the origin, you are entitled to board without a ticket.

How did you get to Bolton? Were you sold a ticket from Manchester or Cheadle Hulme in the end? Did you make a single or return journey?
This is what I thought, I never entered into a contract per principles of contract law, surely contract law covers byelaws??
I was told that the penalty fare ticket covered me for the rest of my journey to Bolton.
Only single tickets are available for this journey.
 

alan collins

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I think it would be helpful if we can establish the facts of this case.

You stated your journey at Cheadle Hulme. What day of the week was this and what time of day was it? You say that there were no staff at the ticket office and the ticket machine at the station was not accepting cash. If this is true then you did not have an opportunity to purchase before travel. Please also confirm that you had no opportunity to purchase on board the train? If so, then you should have been sold the ticket for your journey when you requested such in Manchester.

You said that you received a fine. This is not correct. Only a court can issue a fine. It sounds like you were issued with a Penalty Fare of £20? Is that right? If so, did you pay this or appeal it? If indeed you ignored it is that why you are being taken to court by Northern?

Please can you confirm exactly why you are being taken to court. It will have said what the charge is on the summons.
It was a Sunday afternoon, I appealed at the first stage and only received a letter refusing my appeal.
 

alan collins

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I have emailed the appeal service to ask for the information I gave to the collector that I tried to pay first but no response.
 

yorkie

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I never knew of them.... First thing Monday. Are they independent??
Yes. I'd get your appeal send to them ASAP.

Just to clarify: Northern are not disputing that you had no opportunity to pay at Cheadle Hulme, is that right? Their only reason for prosecuting you is that you did not get a "Promise to pay" coupon?

If so, this is staggering (even by Northern standards)
 

jkdd77

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If the OP appealed within the prescribed timescales, and without Northern cancelling the PF before the first appeal decision was handed down, then there may be an defence that the prosecution is statute-barred under regulation 11(3) of the Penalty Fares Regulations 2018: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2018/366/regulation/11/made

This is in addition to, not instead of, the argument that the prosecution should fail due to the absence of purchase facilities accepting cash.
 

furlong

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There's a lot here that doesn't make sense. E.g. at Manchester, a PF would always be issued for Cheadle Hulme to Manchester - it could not include travel to Bolton, which has to be purchased - as normal - as a separate ticket. With cash in hand, was the full amount requested paid at the time or a part payment or nothing? For a penalty fare, there are 3 levels of appeal. What's the nature of the court proceedings?

Might be better for the OP to start again and give the timeline of what happened with more details, including amounts.
 

cuccir

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My slight concern here is that as a poster to this board Alan, you've struggled to be very clear with us. Gray1404 posted with quite a few specific questions and you only half answered them. You're talking about "contract law" which I agree may be applicable, but if you're going to take this as a defence to court you need to start getting into detail - which legislation? Which parts of that legislation do you think Northern have failed to apply? You've mentioned the Bylaws which is what I presume you're being prosecuted under - but again, you've not said that.

I'm not trying to have a go here, I'm just a bit concerned that unless you get yourself more familiar with the precise detail of - (1) What you're being prosecuted for (2) your basis for challening this and (3) the need to be very precise about what happened on the day of travel - then you'll struggle to make a coherent defence in court, even if you're right. You'll get a Duty Solicitor but they won't necessairily have much time to familiarize themselves with your case.

If you haven't already, write out a clear timeline from memory of the journey you took and your interaction with staff, as a starting point. If as furlong suggests you could share that with us then that'd be great, but of course you don't have to. If you've got any friends who have any legal experience, or experience of forming logical arguments then talking through this with them may help.
 

some bloke

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Does 11(3), mentioned by @jkdd77 above, apply - are they not allowed to prosecute because there's been an appeal decision? If so, would it be the case that the details don't matter and one email should be enough to stop the prosecution?

The prosecution department should be well aware that if they proceeded contrary to 11(3) even after being reminded, the company would risk embarrassment in court.

@alan collins, you could upload photos of the appeal decision and the summons (and any other correspondence from the company) with identifying details removed. Those may clarify whether the prosecution was not allowed in the first place (and perhaps started due to an admin error or lack of communication about the fact that there had been an appeal decision). Even if the prosecution is legitimate, the correspondence may be useful for people on here to see, along with the appeal letter you sent.
 
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some bloke

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In case it's relevant: Regulation 11, paragraph 1 refers to a prosecution "in relation to" the same failure to provide a valid ticket, whereas paragraph 3 says "for" the same failure. The second of those could, at least taken in isolation, imply the company may prosecute after an appeal decision, for something other than failing to produce a valid ticket (such as boarding without one).

(Also, 11(3) refers to people falling within paragraph 1(a). It would make sense if it said "paragraph (1)" - meaning 11(1). There isn't a paragraph 1(a) in that section or in regulation 5 which it mentions.)
 

gray1404

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I thought a TOC only becomes statute barred if the penalty fare is either paid or the person it is issued to wins an appeal. It sounds like the OP lost their first appeal and we do not know if they bothered to pay the penalty fare.
 

some bloke

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The regulation, in 11(3)(a), refers to prosecution being barred after an appeal decision, rather than the decision having to be in the appellant's favour. (It means the first stage of appeal, because it refers to regulation 16.)

Regulation 11 doesn't say that paying a penalty fare would bar prosecution for the same offence.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2018/366/regulation/11/made

Recovering an unpaid penalty fare is a civil matter.

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2018/366/regulation/12/made
 
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Stigy

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The regulation, in 11(3)(a), refers to prosecution being barred after an appeal decision, rather than the decision having to be in the appellant's favour. (It means the first stage of appeal, because it refers to regulation 16.)

Regulation 11 doesn't say that paying a penalty fare would bar prosecution for the same offence.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2018/366/regulation/11/made

Recovering an unpaid penalty fare is a civil matter.

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2018/366/regulation/12/made
Recovering an unpaid penalty fare would be civil, however I’ve yet to see a TOC go down this route. Instead they tend to cancel the Penalty Fare and prosecute under Railway Byelaws in the Mags Court.
 

Stigy

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This is what I thought, I never entered into a contract per principles of contract law, surely contract law covers byelaws??
I was told that the penalty fare ticket covered me for the rest of my journey to Bolton.
Only single tickets are available for this journey.
No, contract law does not cover Byelaws.
 

furlong

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Recovering an unpaid penalty fare would be civil, however I’ve yet to see a TOC go down this route. Instead they tend to cancel the Penalty Fare and prosecute under Railway Byelaws in the Mags Court.

(It's for the OP to clarity if they return to the thread. The TOC can't if there's been a formal PF appeal, but if one appeal why not another, and if properly issued a PF couldn't have given travel to Bolton. A TIR would have given travel to Bolton and a penalty "fake" might be referred to as a "fine" leading to what you describe.)
 

gray1404

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I think it will be hard to provide any further advise until the OP returns and provides the answers to some of the specific questions asked. My concern is, based on the way the story has been presented so far, this may not happen and unless clear arguments are presented in Court and they may loose their case.

I think the OP needs to move away from their ideas about contract law and be open to learning about matters relating to railway legislation (which I expect will have been stated on their summons) in order to best prepare for their court date.
 

Bensonby

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I can’t really add much to what has already been said, particularly regarding needing more information. But I’m a bit confused about the point regarding “intoxication”. Does the OP mean are alcohol or the medication he is on? Is there a specific policy regarding not issuing PF’s to “intoxicated” people. In general terms “voluntary intoxication” is not a defence to a criminal charge.
 

Haywain

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I can’t really add much to what has already been said, particularly regarding needing more information. But I’m a bit confused about the point regarding “intoxication”. Does the OP mean are alcohol or the medication he is on? Is there a specific policy regarding not issuing PF’s to “intoxicated” people. In general terms “voluntary intoxication” is not a defence to a criminal charge.
I read it that the OP was suggesting that being in a (claimed) state of intoxication meant that he could not have agreed to a legally binding contract. Which, on the whole, seems to have little relevance to the situation.
 

island

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This is what I thought, I never entered into a contract per principles of contract law, surely contract law covers byelaws??
I was told that the penalty fare ticket covered me for the rest of my journey to Bolton.
Only single tickets are available for this journey.
“Contract law covers Byelaws” is a meaningless statement.

Contracts need not be signed and a contract can be entered into by actions as well as expressly. Boarding a train may well be enough to enter into a contract to make a train journey and pay the fare due when possible.

You’re legally obliged to purchase a ticket before boarding a train (Railway Byelaws 2005). Why didn’t you do so?
 
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