1.80 pound fare from Watford Junction to Chesham - Permitted Route?

hkstudent · 11 Aug 2019

I have discovered a 1.80 adult oyster fare from Watford Junction to Chesham. Seamingly that would be the lowest oyster fare per mile. The single fare finder doesn't indicate a need to change at Kenton / Northwick Park as "avoid zone 1 fare".
If so, what will be the default routing of the system for such a journey? I doubt a Euston / Euston Square interchange can qualify such a cheap fare.

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yorkie · 11 Aug 2019

If you do not pass through any barriers, the charge will be £1.80

Alternatively if you do go via Kenton/Northwick Park, that will also be £1.80

It's difficult to see how you could reasonably avoid Zone 1 without passing through any barriers, so maybe the default fare should be higher.

hkstudent · 11 Aug 2019

yorkie said:
If you do not pass through any barriers, the charge will be £1.80

Alternatively if you do go via Kenton/Northwick Park, that will also be £1.80

Yeah, but given that single fare finder didn't indicate Kenton / Northwick Park, would that be any possible route that doesn't pass through barriers?

Kenton / Northwick Park is not a publicised Out-of-Station interchange in LU / LO maps, nor announcement does so...

yorkie · 11 Aug 2019

hkstudent said:
Yeah, but given that single fare finder didn't indicate Kenton / Northwick Park, would that be any possible route that doesn't pass through barriers?

I don't really understand the question but if you do not pass through any barriers, the charge will be £1.80.

Are you asking what fare would be charged if you went via Euston/Euston Square? I don't think this would cost any more than the £5.60 charge for Watford Junction to Euston.

matt_world2004 · 11 Aug 2019

hkstudent said:
I have discovered a 1.80 adult oyster fare from Watford Junction to Chesham. Seamingly that would be the lowest oyster fare per mile. The single fare finder doesn't indicate a need to change at Kenton / Northwick Park as "avoid zone 1 fare".
If so, what will be the default routing of the system for such a journey? I doubt a Euston / Euston Square interchange can qualify such a cheap fare.

Watford Junction to any station between queens park/Harrrow on the hill Queens Park to Baker Street, Baker Street to Chesham.

W-on-Sea · 11 Aug 2019

The TfL journey planner, once you modify it to suggest tube only (the default recommended route being to get a train to Hemel, then a bus) does cite the Kenton/Northwick Park route. And does give the off-peak single fare for this route as £1.80

hkstudent · 11 Aug 2019

yorkie said:
I don't really understand the question but if you do not pass through any barriers, the charge will be £1.80.

Are you asking what fare would be charged if you went via Euston/Euston Square? I don't think this would cost any more than the £5.60 charge for Watford Junction to Euston.

TfL doesn't publicise the interchange of Kenton and Northwick Park, I doubt most general public know that.
Since Single Fare Finder always shout out when an Out-Of-Station Interchange exists. Does it mean that it implies there's a route that may not need to go through barriers?

W-on-Sea said:
The TfL journey planner, once you modify it to suggest tube only (the default recommended route being to get a train to Hemel, then a bus) does cite the Kenton/Northwick Park route.

I tried the via Euston option, and bizarrely, it reported it only cost 1.80 for the Euston / Euston Square route

clagmonster · 11 Aug 2019

For this journey, the only route that could be taken which wouldn't involve a pink reader (at Willesden Jn) or an out of station interchange (at Euston or Kenton/Northwick Park), would be to take the Bakerloo all the way into Zone 1. Hence I agree with Yorkie that it would seem that the default fare for the route should be higher, most likely £5.60.

I also suspect that very few people make this journey. The majority will be likely to start at Watford (Met). Not sure if there is a bus alternative.

hkstudent · 11 Aug 2019

W-on-Sea said:
The TfL journey planner, once you modify it to suggest tube only (the default recommended route being to get a train to Hemel, then a bus) does cite the Kenton/Northwick Park route.

clagmonster said:
For this journey, the only route that could be taken which wouldn't involve a pink reader (at Willesden Jn) or an out of station interchange (at Euston or Kenton/Northwick Park), would be to take the Bakerloo all the way into Zone 1. Hence I agree with Yorkie that it would seem that the default fare for the route should be higher, most likely £5.60.

I also suspect that very few people make this journey. The majority will be likely to start at Watford (Met). Not sure if there is a bus alternative.

There certainly be bus alternative, but not London Buses though.
And, when I check the Watford Junction - Upminster / Heathrow / Woolwich Arsenal, I find out that the 1.80 fare is a avoid zone 1&2 fare. Avoid zone 1 only fare is 2.90

bb21 · 11 Aug 2019

What are you actually wanting to know?

If you pass through the gateline at Euston then you will be charged a single from Watford Junction to Euston, and the difference will not be refunded even if you then enact an OSI with Euston Square and the through fare for some reason lower.

bb21 · 11 Aug 2019

clagmonster said:
Hence I agree with Yorkie that it would seem that the default fare for the route should be higher, most likely £5.60.

I don't think TfL care too much about that tbh. Only a very small handful of people will want to ride trains around all day just for the hell of it. As soon as they touch out at a station where a higher fare applies (ie. where most people actually want to do), they would pay the appropriate fare accordingly.

hkstudent · 11 Aug 2019

bb21 said:
What are you actually wanting to know?

If you pass through the gateline at Euston then you will be charged a single from Watford Junction to Euston, and the difference will not be refunded even if you then enact an OSI with Euston Square and the through fare for some reason lower.

Indeed. As I have mentioned, I really doubt it will only cost 1.80 for travelling from Watford Junction - Chesham via Euston.
What I wished to know is that are there any journey not involving Out-of-Station interchange (which Single Fare Finder doesn't ask people to do OSI). Some members did answer that. Thanks.

yorkie · 11 Aug 2019

hkstudent said:
Since Single Fare Finder always shout out when an Out-Of-Station Interchange exists.

As you can see, it does not always.

hkstudent said:
Does it mean that it implies there's a route that may not need to go through barriers?

I am unsure what you are asking but if you do not pass through barriers, the charge will be £1.80.

If you are asking if it is physically possible to do that, then yes it is.

hkstudent said:
I tried the via Euston option, and bizarrely, it reported it only cost 1.80 for the Euston / Euston Square route

Do you have a screenshot for that?

You mention Oyster but I know it would not work on Oyster because you'd be charged the fare to Zone 1 when you tap out at Euston, and you'd not get that back!

I am unsure if this would work on contactless or not, but maybe @MikeWh can advise?

hkstudent said:
There certainly be bus alternative, but not London Buses though.

Not the whole way to Chesham, but you'd start with the 142 from Watford Junction. It's certainly an option if you want to make this journey, but it is unclear if you are just curious or if you want travel advice. The TfL planner can advise.

hkstudent said:
Indeed. As I have mentioned, I really doubt it will only cost 1.80 for travelling from Watford Junction - Chesham via Euston.

If you use Oyster it certainly won't as you will be charged the fare to Z1 as soon as you tap out at Euston.

hkstudent said:
What I wished to know is that are there any journey not involving Out-of-Station interchange (which Single Fare Finder doesn't ask people to do OSI). Some members did answer that. Thanks.

It is possible if your aim is to travel on trains via circuitous routes; it is not actually feasible for someone who actually wishes to get to Chesham in a timely manner

and you're welcome!

matt_world2004 · 11 Aug 2019

It is not without precedent that tfl charge a higher fare for leaving a station, than passing through. The most obvious example of this is Terminal 5 to Terminal 4 which is free. However exiting at the changeover point (Hatton Cross) resulting in a charge

Speculatively, I wonder if the Chesham, Watford junction fare was set up in this way to account for the planned Metropolitan line service to watford junction which would have allowed you to go to chesham without going any further into London than zone 6.

yorkie · 11 Aug 2019

W-on-Sea said:
The TfL journey planner, once you modify it to suggest tube only (the default recommended route being to get a train to Hemel, then a bus) does cite the Kenton/Northwick Park route. And does give the off-peak single fare for this route as £1.80

Agreed.

Choosing a random time tomorrow (not choosing 'tube only' but deselecting 'bus'):-

Option 1: London Overground overground, walking, Metropolitan line, 73 mins
Depart at: 10:31 - Arrive at: 11:44
Total time: 1hr 13mins
Cost of fare: £1.80 off peak
Detailed steps for option 1
Step 1
Depart Watford Junction Rail Station at 10:31via London Overground to Kenton Rail Station
London Overground to Kenton Rail Station
Journey time:
19 min

Step 2
Depart Kenton Rail Station at 10:55via Walk to Northwick Park Station
Walk to Northwick Park Station
Journey time:
12 min

Step 3
Depart Northwick Park Underground Station at 11:07via Metropolitan line to Chesham
Metropolitan line to Chesham
Journey time:
37 min

hkstudent · 12 Aug 2019

yorkie said:
As you can see, it does not always.

I am unsure what you are asking but if you do not pass through barriers, the charge will be £1.80.

If you are asking if it is physically possible to do that, then yes it is.

Do you have a screenshot for that?

You mention Oyster but I know it would not work on Oyster because you'd be charged the fare to Zone 1 when you tap out at Euston, and you'd not get that back!

I am unsure if this would work on contactless or not, but maybe @MikeWh can advise?

Not the whole way to Chesham, but you'd start with the 142 from Watford Junction. It's certainly an option if you want to make this journey, but it is unclear if you are just curious or if you want travel advice. The TfL planner can advise.

If you use Oyster it certainly won't as you will be charged the fare to Z1 as soon as you tap out at Euston.

It is possible if your aim is to travel on trains via circuitous routes; it is not actually feasible for someone who actually wishes to get to Chesham in a timely manner and you're welcome!

I am not sure whether it is due to no via zone 1 fare was loaded. For Watford Junction - Chesham on non-London buses, I think TfL journey planner can also advise as they have the outside London option.

MikeWh · 12 Aug 2019

hkstudent said:
TfL doesn't publicise the interchange of Kenton and Northwick Park, I doubt most general public know that.

http://content.tfl.gov.uk/london-rail-and-tube-services-map.pdf

hkstudent said:
Since Single Fare Finder always shout out when an Out-Of-Station Interchange exists. Does it mean that it implies there's a route that may not need to go through barriers?

No it doesn't! Far from it.

hkstudent · 12 Aug 2019

MikeWh said:
http://content.tfl.gov.uk/london-rail-and-tube-services-map.pdf

No it doesn't! Far from it.

Opps, maybe I am still looking at the old version tube map...

Starmill · 12 Aug 2019

matt_world2004 said:
It is not without precedent that tfl charge a higher fare for leaving a station, than passing through. The most obvious example of this is Terminal 5 to Terminal 4 which is free. However exiting at the changeover point (Hatton Cross) resulting in a charge

This sort of thing seems to happen occasionally other than with the free travel area too.

For example, you could touch in off peak at West Croydon and take an express Southern train. If you touch out at London Bridge, you will be charged £3.50. However, instead of exiting, you can change trains by using the new concourse at London Bridge, then change to London Underground by going over the bridge inside the station at Farringdon and touch out at, say, Baker Street - you might only be charged £3.10.

hkstudent · 12 Aug 2019

Starmill said:
This sort of thing seems to happen occasionally other than with the free travel area too.

For example, you could touch in off peak at West Croydon and take an express Southern train. If you touch out at London Bridge, you will be charged £3.50. However, instead of exiting, you can change trains by using the new concourse at London Bridge, then change to London Underground by going over the bridge inside the station at Farringdon and touch out at, say, Baker Street - you might only be charged £3.10.

Yeah, the issue is, Oystercard can't tell which operator you have taken.
This issue is well pointed out in the South East Pay-As-You-Go consultation.

MikeWh · 12 Aug 2019

Starmill said:
For example, you could touch in off peak at West Croydon and take an express Southern train. If you touch out at London Bridge, you will be charged £3.50. However, instead of exiting, you can change trains by using the new concourse at London Bridge, then change to London Underground by going over the bridge inside the station at Farringdon and touch out at, say, Baker Street - you might only be charged £3.10.

They assume West Croydon - Canada Water - Baker Street for that, which is all TfL.

PeterC · 12 Aug 2019

clagmonster said:
For this journey, the only route that could be taken which wouldn't involve a pink reader (at Willesden Jn) or an out of station interchange (at Euston or Kenton/Northwick Park), would be to take the Bakerloo all the way into Zone 1. Hence I agree with Yorkie that it would seem that the default fare for the route should be higher, most likely £5.60.

I also suspect that very few people make this journey. The majority will be likely to start at Watford (Met). Not sure if there is a bus alternative.

Watford Met is pretty useless for access to central Watford.
For Watford to Chesham
1. If you must use TfL services then change at Kenton
2. Depending on where in Watford and, to a lesser extent, where in Chesham
a. Arriva or Carousel bus to Rickmansworth then Met Line
b. Arriva bus to Northwood then Met Line
IIRC all fares can be paid with contactless
(I use these routes in real life)

When Oyster first came out an OSI did not determine routing which did result in some complaints from people trying to avoid zone 1. That could have given the anomoly of the Euston OSI resulting an a non zone 1 fare. I don't know if that is still the case.

Going via zone 1 could result in the journey timing out and two incomplete journeys being charged. The timeout will be based on the shorter route via Kenton

londonbridge · 12 Aug 2019

hkstudent said:
Yeah, the issue is, Oystercard can't tell which operator you have taken.
This issue is well pointed out in the South East Pay-As-You-Go consultation.

West Croydon to Surrey Quays £1.50 off peak.

East Croydon-Surrey Quays £2.80 off peak.

So I assume from West Croydon it knows/assumes you’ve used London Overground all the way through, whilst from East Croydon you could change at Norwood Junction and use LO from there, but it must know to charge you the National Rail fare on the basis that you can’t get from East Croydon to Surrey Quays using only LO, or am I missing the point here?

yorkie · 12 Aug 2019

londonbridge said:
West Croydon to Surrey Quays £1.50 off peak.

East Croydon-Surrey Quays £2.80 off peak.

So I assume from West Croydon it knows/assumes you’ve used London Overground all the way through, whilst from East Croydon you could change at Norwood Junction and use LO from there, but it must know to charge you the National Rail fare on the basis that you can’t get from East Croydon to Surrey Quays using only LO, or am I missing the point here?

Yes; it gives the benefit of any reasonable doubt.

(For clarity, London Overground is a National Rail TOC but is also a TfL concession; therefore any journey that is assumed to be TfL only will be priced at the TfL only rate; any journey that is assumed to be NR only will be priced at the NR only rate; any journey is assumed to be entirely by LO then it will be at whichever of these two is the cheaper)

Be3G · 12 Aug 2019

To answer a question posed earlier in this thread, post-journey negative fare adjustments (for want of a better term) do happen using contactless thanks to the back-office processing. This means that a journey from Watford Junction to Euston using contactless would initially be charged the full amount when touching out at Euston, but when touching out at Chesham the fare would be revised down to the amount shown on the single fare finder, regardless of OSI use. That is provided the journey is completed within the maximum time allowed – but then, the assumed default route (via the Kenton OSI) would have a maximum journey time of at least 3 hours, so I'd say that's plenty of time to go via Euston!

1.80 pound fare from Watford Junction to Chesham - Permitted Route?

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