EU Referendum: The result and aftermath...

FelixtheCat said:

I don't understand the use of "schizophrenic" in this context. Could you explain please?

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Because Corbyn and his chums seem unable to distinguish their own thoughts and ideas from reality and are all over the place on this topic.

Their first position is to force and win a a general election, then renegotiate a better "non Tory" brexit that will protect jobs and rights. It is unclear how that would happen considering the EU have been quite clear on their position about renegotiation. What that renegotiation will be based on is also unclear and seems to change on a regular basis. It is also unclear how crashing the economy via Brexit will protect jobs, particularity in the traditional Labour voting areas that voted leave! It seems that Mr Corbyn thinks that simply by turning up the EU will see his "right on every question of history ever" persona and simply give him a better deal. It is codswallop. It is exactly the same codswallop Johnson spouts about his ability to do a better, more Tory deal!

It also isn't clear ( beyond being non Tory) what kind of Brexit Labour would argue for in the general election (on Brexit?) that they do support! Boris Johnson will give the voters a very clear choice: He will say out at all costs if you vote for me. What will Labour say? So far they haven't managed a coherent or simple message!

They then say that, if they can't force an election ( and I don't think they can), the PM should put his deal to the people but that they don't support a second referendum but would campaign for remain against either no deal or a Tory deal that does not protect the economy and jobs. It isn't clear what a "Tory" deal would be or what sort of deal they would accept or what the alternative is!

It gets more bizarre when you look into the detail. They say that we wont be in the single market but should retain the benefits of the single market, freedom of movement should end but we should have the benefits of freedom of movement. They say we wont pay into the EU but we will still pay them to get similar benefits!

If they cant get that a general election ( which they wont if they don't work with other parties and then they wont win) then nothing is off the table apparently – including campaigning for a public vote that they don't currently support!

Despite all this they continue to say they respect the result of the referendum, do not support a second referendum but DO support what is, to all intents and purposes, a general election on Brexit, but cant tell you what their position will be if such a thing comes to pass! Oh and if there is a no deal Brexit they MIGHT then support a second referendum that they don't support at present!

Why, for gods sake, can they not just come out with a clear message, a simple policy and pick a side?

Xenophon PCDGS said:

The torture and weekly execution incidents involving political prisoners that were daily features in the Abu Ghraib prison complex when it opened in the 1950s as I mentioned in my earlier posting can in no way be compared to what occurred there when the US Army used this as a base for post-war investigations.

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"My wrong isn't as bad as the other guy's wrong." is right up there with "I was just following orders." in my book.

najaB said:

"My wrong isn't as bad as the other guy's wrong." is right up there with "I was just following orders." in my book.

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I was citing actual events that took place within the very same prison complex after it opened in the 1950s which included very many executions of political prisoners performed on a daily basis.

To try to make a comparison to what occurred in those 1950s days and when during the time when the American military took over the prison, beggars belief. The phrase "bleeding heart liberal" springs to mind.

Xenophon PCDGS said:

To try to make a comparison to what occurred in those 1950s days and when during the time when the American military took over the prison, beggars belief.

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As does someone trying to justify what the Americans did by saying "It's not as bad as what the Iraqis did."

Xenophon PCDGS said:

The word "bleeding heart liberal" springs to mind.

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That's three words. And since you're resorting to name calling to try and make your point I'll use the same level of debate that I would with a petulant child: "Two wrongs don't make a right."

najaB said:

And since you're resorting to name calling to try and make your point I'll use the same level of debate that I would with a petulant child: "Two wrongs don't make a right."

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I may be 74 years of age but have lost none of my cognitive reasoning ability, so will respond to you that whilst two wrongs do not make a right, one should also evaluate the level of wrong committed on one side is very rarely the same level as that on the other side of the comparison. That is what I was endeavouring to convey.

We had better cease this or the moderators will remind us in no uncertain terms what "off topic" means.

If anyone doesn't think a snap election is coming, what do I see above and below the comments when I visited this page this morning?

Can there be any doubt that this is going to be a presidential election?

I assume the full stop was at the insistence of Jacob Rees-Mogg.

DarloRich said:

Because Corbyn and his chums seem unable to distinguish their own thoughts and ideas from reality and are all over the place on this topic.

Their first position is to force and win a a general election, then renegotiate a better "non Tory" brexit that will protect jobs and rights. It is unclear how that would happen considering the EU have been quite clear on their position about regeneration. What that renegotiation will be based on is also unclear and seems to change in a regular basis. or he crashing the economy will protect jobs! It seems that Mr Corbyn thinks that simply by turning up the EU will see his "right on every question of history ever" persona and simply give him a better deal. It is codswallop. It is exactly the same codswallop Johnson spouts about his ability to do a better more Tory deal!

It also isn't clear ( beyond being non Tory) what Labour would argue for in the general election on Brexit that they do support! Boris Johnson will give the voters a very clear choice: He will say out at all costs if you vote for me. What will Labour say? So far they haven't managed a coherent or simple message!

They then say, if they cant force and election ( and I don't think they can) that the PM should put his deal to the people but that they don't support a second referendum but would campaign for remain against either no deal or a Tory deal that does not protect the economy and jobs. It isn't clear what a "Tory" deal would be or what sort of deal they would accept or what the alternative is!

It gets more bizarre when you look into the detail. They say that we wont be in the single market but should retain the benefits of the single market, freedom of movement should end but we should have the benefits of freedom of movement. They say we wont pay into the EU but we will still pay them to get similar benefits!

If they cant get that a general election ( which they wont if they don't work with other parties and then they wont win) then nothing is off the table apparently – including campaigning for a public vote that they don't currently support!

Despite all this they continue to say they respect the result of the referendum, do not support a second referendum but DO support what is, to all intents and purposes, a general election on Brexit, but cant tell you what their position will be if such a thing comes to pass! Oh and if there is a no deal Brexit they MIGHT then support a second referendum that they don't support at present!

Why, for gods sake, can they not just come out with a clear message, a simple policy and pick a side?

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I think I agree with almost everything you say here.

I do wish that you would confine your postings to this lucidity rather than the bitter rantings in which you declare things to be 'rubbish' and divide people into those that agree with you (the DarloRiches) and those who don't who you call 'people like you' (the DarloRichless). You undoubtedly know very little about the people who post here and presume way too much. It does you no credit.

Unfortunately, politics is now for me about preventing a Tory power grab and whilst performing the dance of the seven veils might have worked for some time for Labour, they have sat on the fence too long now. As it has turned out, I think perhaps the two most talented politicians who might have rescued Labour (if the public could have been convinced) were Gordon Brown or Ed Balls but they seem to be men who were broken by sitting in government with Blair for too long.

The Labour Party may will be confined to oblivion now quite simply because they have lost Scotland and are showing no signs of getting it back. The progressive agenda of the SNP and their commitment to the values of the EU certainly make me think about voting for them ; it's a question of whether they really are just a bunch of nationalist nutters like the ones that have taken over England. Recently, stood on a station platform in England someone bragged to me about how 'we' had paid for the 385s. I identify as Scottish more and more every day given the onslaught of hate directed towards us from England (I am English but have lived here for over 20 years ; without having any ill will directed at me due to my nationality, incidentally).

Sadly Brexit, that some claimed would put the Great back into Britain, is leading inexorably towards a Disunited Kingdom.

Back in the 1950s I recall being driven into Scotland from Northumberland and seeing "English go home" painted on a railway bridge somewhere in the Borders. The glib way in which some underestimate the value of the Union of all parts of the Kingdom is one of the most worrying factors in our present situation.

If we go on like this the Yorkshire and Lancashire Nationalists will be starting their own demands for independence closely followed by Wessex. (Although that couldn't easily happen because the component parts of those regions would be as divided amongst themselves as the nation is now.)

Killingworth said:

Sadly Brexit, that some claimed would put the Great back into Britain, is leading inexorably towards a Disunited Kingdom.

Back in the 1950s I recall being driven into Scotland from Northumberland and seeing "English go home" painted on a railway bridge somewhere in the Borders. The glib way in which some underestimate the value of the Union of all parts of the Kingdom is one of the most worrying factors in our present situation.

If we go on like this the Yorkshire and Lancashire Nationalists will be starting their own demands for independence closely followed by Wessex. (Although that couldn't easily happen because the component parts of those regions would be as divided amongst themselves as the nation is now.)

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Where do I sign up for the People's Republic of Yorkshire....???

Bantamzen said:

Where do I sign up for the People's Republic of Yorkshire....???

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It'll never happen.

In every country that I can think of, all of the right wing reactionaries live in the south - it is the natural way of things.

Killingworth said:

If we go on like this the Yorkshire and Lancashire Nationalists will be starting their own demands for independence closely followed by Wessex. (Although that couldn't easily happen because the component parts of those regions would be as divided amongst themselves as the nation is now.)

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I still harbour hopes of a return by the House of Plantagenet, as British monarchical "musical chairs" have seen the Germanic House following after the Dutch House taking turns to rule this country.

DarloRich said:

Why, for gods sake, can they not just come out with a clear message, a simple policy and pick a side?

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Jeremy Corbyn has dropped his principles being a vocal critic of the EU (or whatever it was called before) and has for some reason decided (some would say halfheartedly) to support the side of Remain. One can only wonder why one one the EUs most vocal critics in the past has "changed sides". On this, Theresa May did have a point

433N said:

It'll never happen.

In every country that I can think of, all of the right wing reactionaries live in the south - it is the natural way of things.

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In Belgium, they live in the north

433N said:

I think I agree with almost everything you say here.

I do wish that you would confine your postings to this lucidity rather than the bitter rantings in which you declare things to be 'rubbish' and divide people into those that agree with you (the DarloRiches) and those who don't who you call 'people like you' (the DarloRichless). You undoubtedly know very little about the people who post here and presume way too much. It does you no credit.

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If I don't give a stuff about what people think about me in real life why would I be worried about what some anonymous keyboard bashers think? I will continue to tell you and others what I think and do so directly. I know many cant cope with being challenged like that but tough,

433N said:

Unfortunately, politics is now for me about preventing a Tory power grab and whilst performing the dance of the seven veils might have worked for some time for Labour, they have sat on the fence too long now.

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That has already happened because of the ineffective opposition presented by Mr Corbyn. The complete $hitshow that has been brexit should have been an open goal for an even semi competent Labour leader to surge towards power. Instead we have Corbyn who manages to make the Tories look competent while at the same time looking like a dodery old crack pot with outlandish views. His fan boys will say there is a media conspiracy against him when in reality there doesn't need to be any such conspiracy because he management of the media by his crack team of advisors has been shambolic and the gaffs and own goals keep coming without any effort on the part of the media!

Labour will not get power with that clown in charge. Coupled with the inept leadership has been an amazingly cack handed approach to brexit that has driven people towards the Greens and the Lib Dems and I suspect further towards the SNP. Many of us have taken the advice offered by the Corbyn fans to F off and vote for someone else yet they wonder why they are polling so low.

433N said:

As it has turned out, I think perhaps the two most talented politicians who might have rescued Labour (if the public could have been convinced) were Gordon Brown or Ed Balls but they seem to be men who were broken by sitting in government with Blair for too long.

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perhaps we ought to list the achievements of the Blair governments again. However, perhaps you aren't interested because: Iraqi

433N said:

The Labour Party may will be confined to oblivion now quite simply because they have lost Scotland and are showing no signs of getting it back. The progressive agenda of the SNP and their commitment to the values of the EU certainly make me think about voting for them ; it's a question of whether they really are just a bunch of nationalist nutters like the ones that have taken over England.

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Labour are finished for three reasons:

• Corbyn
• Scotland & the SNP
• Inability to connect with middle class, middle England ( or, if we are frank, to those with any form of aspiration)

433N said:

Recently, stood on a station platform in England someone bragged to me about how 'we' had paid for the 385s. I identify as Scottish more and more every day given the onslaught of hate directed towards us from England (I am English but have lived here for over 20 years ; without having any ill will directed at me due to my nationality, incidentally).

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The problem is that we DID, at least partly, pay for the new trains in Scotland just like English taxpayers massively subsidize Scotland and lots of it's freebies at the expense of other run down areas in England and Wales.

Also, it is bit rich complaining about hatred considering the way, of which I have personal experience, the sweaty socks carry on towards England and the English. Personally I don't hate the Scottish and while against independence at the time of the referendum ( mainly on economic grounds) I think that post brexit they may as well try their own way. However, they need to be honest about the strength and performance their economy without support from the rest of us. This is something the SNP seem unwilling to be honest about.

Anyway that last point is widely off topic

Seems like the opposition parties are drawing up a vote of no confidence for Sept 3rd, in the hope that there will be enough support to force a realignment of parliament in the following fortnight. Let's hope so; however Boris can call a general election for after Oct 31, but he would have to get 66% of Parliament to agree, so if a vote of no-confidence fails, tactically parliament can shoot down an election and force Boris to have three years under no-deal and then by 2022 him and his party are toast.

Howardh said:

Seems like the opposition parties are drawing up a vote of no confidence for Sept 3rd, in the hope that there will be enough support to force a realignment of parliament in the following fortnight. Let's hope so; however Boris can call a general election for after Oct 31, but he would have to get 66% of Parliament to agree, so if a vote of no-confidence fails, tactically parliament can shoot down an election and force Boris to have three years under no-deal and then by 2022 him and his party are toast.

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All this talk of votes of no confidence and interim Governments with Corbyn et-al threatening to go and see the Queen is akin to the discussion about porouging parliament if you ask me.

I wonder how many MPs wish they had not voted for Article 50 bill in 2017. Jeremy Corbyn did, Caroline Lucas did, Phillip Hammond did, Keir Starmer did etc...

Geezertronic said:

All this talk of votes of no confidence and interim Governments with Corbyn et-al threatening to go and see the Queen is akin to the discussion about porouging parliament if you ask me.

I wonder how many MPs wish they had not voted for Article 50 bill in 2017. Jeremy Corbyn did, Caroline Lucas did, Phillip Hammond did, Keir Starmer did etc...

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If it had been A50 + no deal I don't think they would. We DID vote to leave, but we DIDN'T vote to leave without a deal (we didn't vote to leave with a deal either) and that's where the whole business falls down. Once we voted out, there should have been another vote almost immediately "what do you want to replace the EU with, then?" and we follow that route until a conclusion. No conclusion...no Brexit, not no-deal.
Too late now.

Here's my luke-warm take. It seems 99.99% certain that we'll leave on Oct 31st. All talk of no confidence votes, asking the Queen to fire the PM, blah-blah-blah..it's mere distraction. Put your head between your legs and kiss the benefits of EU membership goodbye.

Anyone remember The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy? After reading the last few pages above, do you think there is any room on the B Ark for our MPs alongside the telephone sanitisers? They've made a right joojooflop of it!

(Please note that in order to comply with the rules of the forum, I have not used the name of a certain Western European country.)

The day after the referendum result, I posted elsewhere:
'Does anyone know of any B-Arks departing any time soon? Eternity with marketing executives and telephone sanitisers seems preferable to the immediate future here.'

nlogax said:

Here's my luke-warm take. It seems 99.99% certain that we'll leave on Oct 31st. All talk of no confidence votes, asking the Queen to fire the PM, blah-blah-blah..it's mere distraction. Put your head between your legs and kiss the benefits of EU membership goodbye.

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The question now is the immediate aftermath and who's in charge and what can they do about it? As long as the EU is still willing to put up with us keep the deal open things might not be too bad, but I'm sure the EU won't be talking to the Tories.

Looks like civil servants are preparing the path for curfews. https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/..._iNCfZvT7DoodNJ-_obgFPIdq6bH3vKVjq0uyvETlc9MM

Ministers will have draconian powers to bring in curfews, redirect food supplies and even change the law without consulting parliament in the event of a no-deal Brexit.
Senior civil servants in Whitehall have discussed plans to use the sweeping authority of a little-known law to deal with any unexpected consequences of a disorderly departure from the European Union.
The legislation grants ministers emergency powers to deal with any event that threatens to cause “serious damage” to the UK.
Officials are understood to have advised ministers that the law could be used to give police, local authorities and other public bodies immediate powers to tackle potential problems such as fuel or food shortages without the need to change the law first.

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Why would they NEED to use these powers? Presumably Brexit's gonna be so bad that there will be shortages, fights, riots...?? Otherwisw thy would government officials be digging up antiquarian laws??

Have fun everyone while I join my hedgehog in a six-month hibernation.

Is this REALLY happening to the United Kingdom?

Howardh said:

As long as the EU is still willing to put up with us keep the deal open things might not be too bad

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I sincerely doubt the patience of the EU will last beyond October. They've had enough of the UK. Hell, *I've* had enough of the UK, and I live here.

nlogax said:

Here's my luke-warm take. It seems 99.99% certain that we'll leave on Oct 31st. All talk of no confidence votes, asking the Queen to fire the PM, blah-blah-blah..it's mere distraction. Put your head between your legs and kiss the benefits of EU membership goodbye.

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...kiss the benefits of EU membership goodbye for a while, at least. But this doesn't end on 31st October. There's no majority in the UK for a no-deal brexit, and probably now no majority for brexit at all. The bizarre idea that the country will unite behind a no-deal brexit if/when it actually happens, and put up with the hardship and forget about the EU is nonsense. The brexiters seem intent on destroying their own project by pushing for the most destructive brexit possible to happen in the most painful way possible. This is not a good plan.

The EU will be an issue not just in the next UK election, but all the subsequent elections after that. The UK doesn't necessarily have to rejoin (although that's certainly an option). Some sensible relationship, maybe based around the Norwegian or Icelandic models is also possible, bringing some of the benefits (e.g. freedom of movement, customs union and single market access) without going all the way back in.

Governments change from time to time. The current administration won't be around forever. The Tories have already been in power for nine years - that's pretty long by British standards.

anme said:

There's no majority in the UK for a no-deal brexit, and probably now no majority for brexit at all. The bizarre idea that the country will unite behind a no-deal brexit if/when it actually happens, and put up with the hardship and forget about the EU is nonsense. The brexiters seem intent on destroying their own project by pushing for the most destructive brexit possible to happen in the most painful way possible. This is clearly not a good plan.

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It's quickly becoming apparent that there is no mechanism to translate a perceived lack of majority for Brexit (of any flavor) into something that can nix the process and apply the emergency brake. The incumbent PM and his government are intent on the country leaving on October 31st regardless of a lack of deal, and the options are now extremely limited to prevent it happening.

https://www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/publications/parliament-role-before-31-october-brexit

"A new paper by the Institute for Government says MPs looking to make their voices heard will have far fewer opportunities to do so this time around than they had in the run-up to the end of March this year, when the former prime minister was trying to pass her withdrawal agreement.

Given the limited time available, this paper reaches the following conclusions about what is likely to happen over the next few months:

• It is very unlikely the UK will be able to leave the EU with a deal on 31 October
• MPs can express opposition to no deal but that alone will not prevent it
• Backbenchers have very few opportunities to legislate to stop no deal
• A vote of no confidence would not necessarily stop no deal
• There is little time to hold a general election before 31 October
• A second referendum can only happen with government support."

I'm sure that if we were to leave during an election campaign, somebody has made an (as yet undeclosed) pact with those who matter in the EU to get us back in to the EEA at least before the damage becomes irreversible.

anme said:

... Governments change from time to time. The current administration won't be around forever. The Tories have already been in power for nine years - that's pretty long by British standards.

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That is so true. Even if Johnson does get some sort of majority in order to see the extremists version of leaving into law, it will decimate the party and given their reputation for in-party back stabbing, they will be a spent force for a decade. All this rubbish put out about 'if the democratic choice of the electorate isn't honoured there will be a breakdown in society' etc. etc. will pale into the background when large scale shortages, high inflation and massive job losses (especially in the industrial areas so proud of their leave majority) become a reality. There would be insurrection in some parts if the perpetrators of the leave lie were still in power.

nlogax said:

It's quickly becoming apparent that there is no mechanism to translate a perceived lack of majority for Brexit (of any flavor) into something that can nix the process and apply the emergency brake. The incumbent PM and his government are intent on the country leaving on October 31st regardless of a lack of deal, and the options are now extremely limited to prevent it happening.

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Isn't it now written into UK law so a change in the law would need to happen to either extend the leave date or revoke Article 50?

Geezertronic said:

Isn't it now written into UK law so a change in the law would need to happen to either extend the leave date or revoke Article 50?

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Indeed. Parliament voted for that change in the law on March 27th in order to accommodate the amended exit date of October 31st.

DarloRich said:

Why, for gods sake, can they not just come out with a clear message, a simple policy and pick a side?

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Because committed socialists have rarely been successful in the long term, due to their obsession over the "purity" of their message. Witness how many Momentum people regularly moan about Blair and "blue Labour" and suggest even the most moderate of dissenters "join the Tories". The purpose of Momentum and Corbyn is not to build the broad church of consensus required in a healthy democracy, but rather to enforce their ideology. As far as I can tell, Corbyn and Momentum rarely say things to appeal to anyone who doesn't already support them.

Also, for someone so outspoken and so committed to opposing imperialism, why hasn't Corbyn said anything about China and Hong Kong? Suspect if it was Israel doing similar in Palestine he'd be a little less tacit! A wholly unsuitable man to lead any sort of gathering of people bigger than a sociology tutorial.

AlterEgo said:

Also, for someone so outspoken and so committed to opposing imperialism, why hasn't Corbyn said anything about China and Hong Kong? Suspect if it was Israel doing similar in Palestine he'd be a little less tacit! A wholly unsuitable man to lead any sort of gathering of people bigger than a sociology tutorial.

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Because he shook hands with President Xi at Buckingham Palace but wouldn't offer President Trump the same courtesy