Promise to Pay dispute.

island said:

You’re legally obliged to purchase a ticket before boarding a train (Railway Byelaws 2005). Why didn’t you do so?

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Because:

alan collins said:

Office was closed and no cash payments at machine.

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island said:

“Contract law covers Byelaws” is a meaningless statement.

Contracts need not be signed and a contract can be entered into by actions as well as expressly. Boarding a train may well be enough to enter into a contract to make a train journey and pay the fare due when possible.

You’re legally obliged to purchase a ticket before boarding a train (Railway Byelaws 2005). Why didn’t you do so?

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machine didn't accept cash and office closed

Thank you all for input, I will post copies of all correspondence later, including summons which is for criminal not civil in magistrates court. Ill post the byelaws which state no pf can be given to someone medicated like I was, im getting a letter from my M.H. doctor to show this to be true. Thanks all again.

some bloke said:

Does 11(3), mentioned by @jkdd77 above, apply - are they not allowed to prosecute because there's been an appeal decision? If so, would it be the case that the details don't matter and one email should be enough to stop the prosecution?

The prosecution department should be well aware that if they proceeded contrary to 11(3) even after being reminded, the company would risk embarrassment in court.

@alan collins, you could upload photos of the appeal decision and the summons (and any other correspondence from the company) with identifying details removed. Those may clarify whether the prosecution was not allowed in the first place (and perhaps started due to an admin error or lack of communication about the fact that there had been an appeal decision). Even if the prosecution is legitimate, the correspondence may be useful for people on here to see, along with the appeal letter you sent.

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I will upload later tonight. Thanks

furlong said:

There's a lot here that doesn't make sense. E.g. at Manchester, a PF would always be issued for Cheadle Hulme to Manchester - it could not include travel to Bolton, which has to be purchased - as normal - as a separate ticket. With cash in hand, was the full amount requested paid at the time or a part payment or nothing? For a penalty fare, there are 3 levels of appeal. What's the nature of the court proceedings?

Might be better for the OP to start again and give the timeline of what happened with more details, including amounts.

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There was no amount requested, I tried to buy the ticket from Ch H to Bolton , they refused my money and issued me a £20 penalty instead, I appealed as I thought this wrong, appeal turned down, here I am....post summons etc later.

yorkie said:

Yes. I'd get your appeal send to them ASAP.

Just to clarify: Northern are not disputing that you had no opportunity to pay at Cheadle Hulme, is that right? Their only reason for prosecuting you is that you did not get a "Promise to pay" coupon?

If so, this is staggering (even by Northern standards)

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Yes, that is correct. This is why im not accepting this lieing down.

It sounds to be like you didn't pay the penalty fare of £20 after you lost your first appeal. It also sounds like you didn't appeal a second or third time. The process allows you to appeal up to 3 times.

alan collins said:

machine didn't accept cash and office closed

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I very rarely start journeys from Northern stations, but understand they now have a "promise to pay" facility on their machines - similar to the permit to travel arrangement. Was this available?

6Gman said:

I very rarely start journeys from Northern stations, but understand they now have a "promise to pay" facility on their machines - similar to the permit to travel arrangement. Was this available?

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alan collins said:

I have always paid on the train or at Piccadilly on the dozen or so times Ive made the same journey, I got to Piccadilly and got in the queue to buy my ticket, when I got to the front of the queue I asked for a ticket from Cheadle Hulme to Bolton with money in my hand, but was issued a fine because I didn't have a promise to pay card.

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The fact that this wasn't purchased was raised at the very start.

If I have understood the OP's position correctly, it's as follows:

- the OP's journey was from Cheadle Hume to Bolton, via Manchester Piccadilly
- the ticket office at Cheadle Hume was closed: the ticket machine was not taking cash. I infer that the ticket machine was working and capable of issuing a promise to pay notice, and I further infer that the OP did not have (or was reluctant to use, which amounts to the same thing) a debit or credit card with them.
- At Piccadilly, the OP queued to buy a ticket (I infer from the staff by the platform, not from the ticket office) for his whole journey, but was issued a penalty fare because he didn't have a promise to pay notice.
- The OP appealed against the penalty fare, apparently on the grounds that the OP was in no state to enter into a contract.
- I infer that the appeal was rejected but the OP did not pursue the appeal further. I also infer that the OP did not then pay the penalty fare.
- The case has now gone to court and is due to be heard in court in ten days from last Saturday (so I think something like Monday 19 or Tuesday 20 August). The OP tells us that he is considering a defence on the basis that 'surely contract law covers byelaws?' so I further infer that the prosecution is for a railway byelaw offence. I infer even further that this is probably a byelaw 18 offence - that (byelaw 18(1))

no person shall enter any train for the purpose of travelling on the railway unless he has with him a valid ticket entitling him to travel.

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but (18(3))

No person shall be in breach of Byelaw 18(1) or 18(2) if:
(i) there were no facilities in working order for the issue or validation of any ticket at the time when, and the station where, he began his journey; or
(ii) there was a notice at the station where he began his journey permitting journeys to be started without a valid ticket; or
(iii) an authorised person gave him permission to travel without a valid ticket.

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- the OP has a mental health condition which is treated with a medication which is anti-psychotic and a sedative. He had 'over medicated' to cope with travelling with a lot of people.

I've made a lot of inferences here. If I've got things wrong, please correct me, but my comments from here are based on the facts that you've told us and the inferences I've made.

You are in a difficult position, and it all comes down to quite what a 'promise to pay notice' is. This is because byelaw 18(1) says that you must have a train ticket before travelling, but byelaw 18(3) gives a few reasons why byelaw 18(1) might not apply - and one of those reasons is that (to paraphrase) because you didn't have a chance to get a ticket before travelling.

You don't have to pay for a promise to pay notice, but Northern Rail think it is a sort of ticket - see https://www.northernrailway.co.uk/legal/penalty-fares where they say

What is a Promise to Pay notice?

A Promise to Pay notice is a ticket that must be obtained from our ticket vending machines if customers do not have the facility to pay by credit/debit card. The Promise to Pay notice allows customers to board the train with the intention of exchanging the notice at the first opportunity with a revenue officer, or at the next available booking office.

(...)

If I do not buy a ticket before travelling, is it an automatic Penalty Fare?

You are responsible for ensuring that you purchase a ticket or obtain a Promise to Pay notice that is valid for your entire journey before travelling, otherwise you may have to pay a Penalty Fare.

Northern is responsible for ensuring that the facility to purchase a ticket or Promise to Pay notice is available.

Can I pay at my destination if I am in a rush?

If you board a train without a valid ticket or Promise to Pay notice you may have to pay a Penalty Fare. If it is shown that your intention was to avoid your fare, then you are breaking the criminal law and you may be liable for prosecution.

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If Northern Rail are right and a Promise to Pay notice is a sort of ticket, then you are caught by the byelaw, and you will lose in court. But if it isn't a sort of ticket, then you will win (because with no ticket office and only having cash with you, there was no way for you to buy a ticket). The problem is that you would have to get the magistrate to agree that a promise to pay notice was not a ticket. That would be a complicated legal argument, which I think would involve finding a definition in the statutes as to what constitutes a 'ticket', or failing that case law which demonstrates what is a 'ticket'. I really don't think that this is a job for someone who is unrepresented: it's detailed law and it really needs a lawyer. This is a shame as I understand your point about not having the money to hire a lawyer.

So you can probably assume that if you go to court you will lose. Even though time is now short, you probably want to find a way to avoid going to court. Probably the thing to do is to try and phone the prosecutors, and explain your health issues. I am no expert, but it seems to me that they may be reluctant to prosecute someone who is ill and was struggling with extra medication so that they could travel. I don't know if anyone works with you to support you, but if so it may be worth asking them to make the phone call for you to talk to the prosecutor.

I suggest the OP to get to Citizen Advice ASAP, and also to seek for any possible Legal Aid.

Fawkes Cat said:

If I have understood the OP's position correctly, it's as follows:

- the OP's journey was from Cheadle Hume to Bolton, via Manchester Piccadilly
- the ticket office at Cheadle Hume was closed: the ticket machine was not taking cash. I infer that the ticket machine was working and capable of issuing a promise to pay notice, and I further infer that the OP did not have (or was reluctant to use, which amounts to the same thing) a debit or credit card with them.
- At Piccadilly, the OP queued to buy a ticket (I infer from the staff by the platform, not from the ticket office) for his whole journey, but was issued a penalty fare because he didn't have a promise to pay notice.
- The OP appealed against the penalty fare, apparently on the grounds that the OP was in no state to enter into a contract.
- I infer that the appeal was rejected but the OP did not pursue the appeal further. I also infer that the OP did not then pay the penalty fare.
- The case has now gone to court and is due to be heard in court in ten days from last Saturday (so I think something like Monday 19 or Tuesday 20 August). The OP tells us that he is considering a defence on the basis that 'surely contract law covers byelaws?' so I further infer that the prosecution is for a railway byelaw offence. I infer even further that this is probably a byelaw 18 offence - that (byelaw 18(1)) but (18(3))
- the OP has a mental health condition which is treated with a medication which is anti-psychotic and a sedative. He had 'over medicated' to cope with travelling with a lot of people.

I've made a lot of inferences here. If I've got things wrong, please correct me, but my comments from here are based on the facts that you've told us and the inferences I've made.

You are in a difficult position, and it all comes down to quite what a 'promise to pay notice' is. This is because byelaw 18(1) says that you must have a train ticket before travelling, but byelaw 18(3) gives a few reasons why byelaw 18(1) might not apply - and one of those reasons is that (to paraphrase) because you didn't have a chance to get a ticket before travelling.

You don't have to pay for a promise to pay notice, but Northern Rail think it is a sort of ticket - see https://www.northernrailway.co.uk/legal/penalty-fares where they say

If Northern Rail are right and a Promise to Pay notice is a sort of ticket, then you are caught by the byelaw, and you will lose in court. But if it isn't a sort of ticket, then you will win (because with no ticket office and only having cash with you, there was no way for you to buy a ticket). The problem is that you would have to get the magistrate to agree that a promise to pay notice was not a ticket. That would be a complicated legal argument, which I think would involve finding a definition in the statutes as to what constitutes a 'ticket', or failing that case law which demonstrates what is a 'ticket'. I really don't think that this is a job for someone who is unrepresented: it's detailed law and it really needs a lawyer. This is a shame as I understand your point about not having the money to hire a lawyer.

So you can probably assume that if you go to court you will lose. Even though time is now short, you probably want to find a way to avoid going to court. Probably the thing to do is to try and phone the prosecutors, and explain your health issues. I am no expert, but it seems to me that they may be reluctant to prosecute someone who is ill and was struggling with extra medication so that they could travel. I don't know if anyone works with you to support you, but if so it may be worth asking them to make the phone call for you to talk to the prosecutor.

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An interesting case this and I entirely agree with Fawkes Cat's analysis. I was a qualified lawyer until deciding on a career change some years ago and let my practicing certificate lapse. I hope the following may be of help: -

• As with all large corporations the TOC's interpretation of the law where there is uncertainty is normally that which most favours themselves and they will fight it in the courts as a matter of policy irrespective of any other considerations.
• There is a complex point in law involved and it is essential that you obtain professional legal advice.
• You can get free legal advice and representation in court from the Citizens Advice Bureau. Due to the lack of time they may ask for an adjournment in order to give them more time to advise you and prepare.
• The prosecutor will be the Crown Prosecution Service. CAB can liaise with them on your behalf. The CPS has complete discretion over whether or not to continue a prosecution and can drop the case if they feel a prosecution is not in the public interest. Personally I would question whether it is in the public interest to prosecute in your case, given the circumstances.
• Your medical issue will need to be proved by independent medical evidence: neither the court nor the CPS will accept your word alone. So you will need to get a letter from your doctor or consultant spelling out the diagnosis, symptoms, and effects of your condition.

Czesziafan said:

The prosecutor will be the Crown Prosecution Service.

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I don’t know about the rest of your post but this is absolutely wrong. The train operating company will be privately prosecuting. And another poster has suggested that Citizens Advice are unlikely to be able to provide representation.

hkstudent said:

I suggest the OP to get to Citizen Advice ASAP, and also to seek for any possible Legal Aid.

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Czesziafan said:

You can get free legal advice and representation in court from the Citizens Advice Bureau.

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Citizens Advice do not cover criminal law matters (beyond a surface level) and will not provide representation in court for a criminal matter. Some local Citizens Advice may have an agreement with a local firm of solicitors to provide their services from the office of and upon referral by the local Citizens Advice but they very much are not going to be Citizens Advice staff or volunteers and are very likely to charge for their services (beyond an initial consultation).

Citizens Advice do many things for many people but what is being described here is something that is far beyond their skill set.

Don't forget that, if this was a proper first appeal decision (which we still don't know) then the regulations attempt to bar prosecution - but again, such legal arguments will be difficult without a lawyer involved as the right things have to be said in the right ways at the right times and it could lead to a legal debate where further legal principles and precedents would need to be deployed if the applicability or validity was in doubt.

Penalty fares and criminal offences
11.—(1) A person who has been charged a penalty fare under regulation 5(1) is not liable to pay where proceedings for any of the offences specified in paragraph (4) are also brought against that
person in relation to the same failure to produce a platform ticket or a valid travel ticket which gave rise to that penalty fare.

(2) If a person to whom paragraph (1) applies has paid the penalty fare, or part of it, the operator on whose behalf the penalty fare was charged must refund that person the amount paid within the period of 10 working days, beginning with the day on which proceedings are brought.

(3) Where a person falling within paragraph (1)(a) has appealed against the penalty fare under regulation 16, proceedings for any of the offences specified in paragraph (4) may only be brought against that person for the same failure to produce a platform ticket or a valid travel ticket if the operator, on whose behalf the penalty fare was charged, notifies the relevant Appeal Panel that the penalty fare is cancelled before—
(a) the relevant Appeal Panel has decided the outcome of the appeal under regulation 16; or
(b) the time period mentioned in paragraph 6 of Schedule 2 expires, whichever is sooner.

(4) The offences referred to in paragraphs (1) and (3) are the offences under—
(a) section 5(3)(a) or (b) of the Regulation of the Railways Act 1889(a);
(b) any byelaw made under—
(i) section 67 of the Transport Act 1962(b);
(ii) section 129 of the Railways Act 1993(c);
(iii) section 219 of the Transport Act 2000(d);
(iv) section 46 of the Railways Act 2005(e).

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alan collins said:

Thank you all for input, I will post copies of all correspondence later, including summons which is for criminal not civil in magistrates court. Ill post the byelaws which state no pf can be given to someone medicated like I was, im getting a letter from my M.H. doctor to show this to be true. Thanks all again.

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Somehow I highly doubt (having never completely read) the bylaws contain an exception for voluntarily intoxicated individuals, which more often than not would be those who have chosen to have a few too many to drink and frankly many railway officials consider to be the worst passengers. More generally while intoxication may provide a defence for offences requiring intention on the basis that the state of intoxication made it impossible for the accused to form intention it is never a defence for offences with a lower burden of mens rea and in fact is enough in itself to prove recklessness (although considering bylaw 18 is strict liability meaning that proof of committing the act is sufficient without any thought as to the mental element this is rather unimportant). To get a defence of involuntary intoxication you would have to prove that you were not aware of the effects of your medication (or for the sake of completeness you were drugged) which your posts make rather clear that you were aware of and therefore your intoxication would be deemed to be voluntary in legal terms.

alan collins said:

Yes, that is correct. This is why im not accepting this lieing down.

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So did you exhaust all 3 levels of appeal, which would be the normal process to follow - addressing questions such as whether it was issued correctly (wrong destination?), signage at origin station, and how 'promise to pay' fits into the regulations at all - or did you stop and, as far as the process is concerned accept the penalty, after just one rejected appeal?

I wonder if the OP wishes to argue that their condition makes it impossible for them to use a ticket machine, and that they might therefore be covered by the TOC's Disabled Persons' Policy or similar?

There's a relevant post related to "Promise to Pay" on last year.
The discussion also involved "Corbyn Case", which was a court case involving a regular customer who was unable to access to functioning ticket facility.

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/northern-tvms-not-set-up-to-issue-promise-to-pay.174950/

cuccir said:

The fact that this wasn't purchased was raised at the very start.

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The OP says he was "fined" because "I didn't have a Promise to Pay card". What's not clear is whether this was because he was (reasonably) unaware of this requirement, or whether he had chosen to ignore the issue.

I'd be interested to know what any signage says.

And, of course, the promise to pay isn't "purchased" as such.

I would have thought that the OP's best (only?) defence would be that the Promise to Pay requirement was not clearly set out, rather than trying to construct some amalgam of contract law and railway byelaw.

If @alan collins can establish that the prosecution is barred, that's the end of it apart from perhaps a civil debt. How about this for now?

.................

Dear [Prosecution Department],

I received a decision from [penalty fare appeal panel] on XX/XX/2019, refusing to allow my appeal in case XXXXX. I subsequently received a summons to appear in court on XX/XX/2019 (ref. XXXXX).

However, according to the Penalty Fare Regulations, a prosecution may only be brought for the same failure to produce a valid ticket if the company notified the panel - before the panel's decision or before a time limit - that the relevant penalty fare was cancelled.

Since I have no knowledge of such a cancellation, it may be that there has been a misunderstanding.

Please clarify whether the company did fulfil the obligation below, and whether in light of the regulation you wish to proceed further with the prosecution. The Railways (Penalty Fares) Regulations 2018 state:

"11 (3)...proceedings for any of the offences specified...may only be brought...if the operator...notifies the relevant Appeal Panel that the penalty fare is cancelled before — (a) the relevant Appeal Panel has decided the outcome ...or (b) the time period...expires"

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2018/366/regulation/11/made

Thank you.

Kind regards,

Alan Collins

....................

Also, @alan collins could ask the appeals body whether the company notified it as required above that the penalty fare was cancelled. We might expect the answer to be no, but it may be useful to have the answer (or else an acknowledgement that there has been an admin error, since there was an appeal decision).

I think, at this point in time, people here are assuming far too much.
Surely the best advice to give, and thus for the problem holder, Alan Collins, to follow is for him to upload a copy of the court paperwork recieved (with personal details obscured / blanked out). That way productive assisance can be provided by those here who feel competent to advise on such matters.
It just seems to me that right now people are falling over other people providing assistance for an unknown court issue - and a potentially complex court issue at that.

Please don't get me wrong folks, the advise is invaluable to those in need - but right now I don't think it is productive.

some bloke said:

How about this for now?

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I don't think that would be a very good letter to send, no - seek professional advice rather than sending something like that.

I've got to agree with Fawkes Cat's summary above, which notes the assumptions it's made, and also 800002's warning - we simply don't have the information to confidently tell Alan that he has a strong defence. I'm also concerned that the failure to answer questions clearly and in organised way here would translate into a similar failure in court.

Ideally, if you intend to plead not guilty, try and get a free consultation with a solicitor. Failing that, produce comprehensive notes written as to what happened on the day for the duty solicitor, alongside notes on any basis for a defence you might want to posit. I would also get a doctor's note ready to present to the court ideally outlining your diagnosis, key symptoms of this, the medication taken, and possible effects of that.

However, trying to get a consulation with a solicitor should be a priority if you intend to plead not guilty.

I am going through the same situation.

David Anthony said:

I am going through the same situation.

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Welcome to the forum. It would be easier for us to give you advice if you started a new thread, so you can tell us about what's happened to you and we don't get muddled up with what happened to the other chap.

yorkie said:

Are you in court because you refused to pay the fine?

Was the ticket office closed when you made the journey? If it was, were the ticket machines card only?

If you had no opportunity to pay until Manchester, you have a good case.

Also did you have sufficient time to queue for a ticket in Manchester? Did this cause you to miss a train to Bolton?

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I won my case, I represented myself at trial, they crumbled when I got an adjournment and sent my evidence. I have juicy info re all p2p penalty fares I will share after advice. Thanks

alan collins said:

I won my case...

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Did you get an actual judgement, or did they withdraw the case. There is an important difference.

Thanks for letting us know. Anything that you can share about what happened and how you won will be helpful so we can help other people in future.

Wonderful, hopefully can head your detail story soon...