Scottish HLOS for CP6 (2019-24)

GRALISTAIR · 2 Aug 2017

Mordac said:
If there's going to be new electrification in CP6 (and despite me being as far as you could be from an SNP fan, in this case they didn't drop the ball like the UK government did), then I'd say the following are the priorities:

Glasgow to East Killbride and Barrhead (with dualling as much as affordable in the case of EK)
Anniesland

Eliminating these two remaining islands of diesel operation in the central belt I think would give you the most bang for your buck, not only because you get more DMU for EMU replacements, but also for reasons of operational flexibility, especially in the case of Anniesland.

If there's any money after this, then I guess next would be Dunblane to Perth, or Dundee depending on business cases and how ambitious they're feeling. I suspect going all the way to Dundee might have a better business case even if it's more expensive, because there's more services terminating there vice Perth. But I could be wrong, because I don't know if there's any challenging to electrify bits of track from there to Perth.

I totally agree with these sentiments and opinions.

RailUK Forums

Chris125 · 12 Aug 2019

Senex said:
But does the Carstairs plan envisage doing the job properly by going back to the old alignment, or is it to be a half-baked "improvement" on the present alignment that will still leave a pretty low-speed junction?

Oh well, 'half-baked' it is! I really hope this is all a misunderstanding...

"in other news, #CarstairsRemod is looking like a complete cop-out...

I am working out who I need to moan at, but that the project is being called a "rationalisation and renewal" rather than a remodelling shows that the proper work is probably being kicked into the long grass

Long story short - a year ago the proposals were a bit weak but did involve some linespeed improvements and general remodelling to get the best out of the junction within an unnecessarily limited budget.

Roll forwards to this summer and the plans have been pared back to what is basically a like-for-like renewal, with no discernible benefit for the end-user other than slightly increased reliability."

https://twitter.com/GarethDennis/status/1160895694837878785

hwl · 13 Aug 2019

Re Carstairs,

HS2 would possibly have to pay for the costs of a big remodelling due to their required journey times hence NR just doing the minimum for the time being and leaving HS2 to cover another rebuild for improvements that way eliminating arguments over renewal/improvement cost split?

mcmad · 13 Aug 2019

If you read the twitter thread then its clear that Gareth hasn't actually seen the details of the proposed scheme only heard a title from his granny's aunts cousins brother.

Perhaps better to wait on some detail before getting too frothed up?

Chris125 · 13 Aug 2019

mcmad said:
Perhaps better to wait on some detail before getting too frothed up?

Do you know he's wrong?

mcmad · 13 Aug 2019

If you're asking do I know what the proposed scheme is composed of then yes.
If you're asking do I know if the proposed scheme is in line with whatever he thinks constituents 'proper work', then no.

JohnR · 15 Aug 2019

mcmad said:
If you read the twitter thread then its clear that Gareth hasn't actually seen the details of the proposed scheme only heard a title from his granny's aunts cousins brother.

Perhaps better to wait on some detail before getting too frothed up?

If you read the twitter thread it would be clear to you that Gareth is the guy who is going to be designing the proposed scheme!!! So is in a much better place to know the details that you or I.

mcmad · 15 Aug 2019

(a) it says nothing about him designing it on the thread
(b) you've no idea what I do or don't know about the scheme.

The BIgman1234 · 15 Aug 2019

Senex said:
But does the Carstairs plan envisage doing the job properly by going back to the old alignment, or is it to be a half-baked "improvement" on the present alignment that will still leave a pretty low-speed junction?

Plans are so I’ve been told is to slew the track and bring it up to 40 mph ‍♂️‍♂️

najaB · 16 Aug 2019

The BIgman1234 said:
Plans are so I’ve been told is to slew the track and bring it up to 40 mph

That would be a big improvement. It's what, 15mph at the moment?

railjock · 16 Aug 2019

Given the flooding in Winchburgh tunnel is the Dalmeny chord likely to be a higher priority than it might have otherwise been?

Altnabreac · 16 Aug 2019

railjock said:
Given the flooding in Winchburgh tunnel is the Dalmeny chord likely to be a higher priority than it might have otherwise been?

No. The Dalmeny Chord is going to be a high priority because it delivers extra capacity at the congested western throat of Waverley and Haymarket, allows direct access from Glasgow to Edinburgh Airport and increases Edinburgh - Glasgow fast services by 2tph.

The benefits of these versus a slightly more reliable service on the 1 day per year that unseasonable rain occurs is massively different.

So Dalmeny Chord will happen but not for diversionary reasons.

haggishunter · 16 Aug 2019

^Do you mean the Chord will bring the E&G via Falkirk High to 6 trains per hour?

InOban · 16 Aug 2019

It gives the capacity to increase to six train's per hour, when traffic demands.

The BIgman1234 · 16 Aug 2019

najaB said:
That would be a big improvement. It's what, 15mph at the moment?

Yeh 15 mph just now . Also going to do away with nearly 15 sets of points . Carstairs single line getting doubled lined and up to 40 mph as well . So we are hearing .

Tobbes · 16 Aug 2019

The BIgman1234 said:
Yeh 15 mph just now . Also going to do away with nearly 15 sets of points . Carstairs single line getting doubled lined and up to 40 mph as well . So we are hearing .

Sorry, for those who don't know the layout, could you please explain which sections would be uprgraded? Presumably this is the line on the north side of the triangle?

Thanks in advance!

Altnabreac · 16 Aug 2019

haggishunter said:
^Do you mean the Chord will bring the E&G via Falkirk High to 6 trains per hour?

Yes, realistically Dalmeny Chord will only happen if there is demand for more E-G via Falkirk High services.

There are a number of options for these:
Fast from Q Street - Haymarket
Falkirk High only
Falkirk, Croy, Linlithgow
Rejig to give direct Bishopbriggs, Lenzie to Edinburgh services.

I tend to think that 6tph all offering a 35-40 min service with 3-4 stops each is probably the optimum solution rather than there being a couple of headline faster services.

Aictos · 16 Aug 2019

The BIgman1234 said:
Yeh 15 mph just now . Also going to do away with nearly 15 sets of points . Carstairs single line getting doubled lined and up to 40 mph as well . So we are hearing .

Is that Carstairs East Junction into Carstairs station?

Can you clarify the location of said line please?

The BIgman1234 · 16 Aug 2019

Tobbes said:
Sorry, for those who don't know the layout, could you please explain which sections would be uprgraded? Presumably this is the line on the north side of the triangle?

Thanks in advance!

Coming from Edinburgh towards Carlisle this is supposed to be going up to 40 mph , from the east to south junctions . Then at the east Junction there is a single line connection which takes u towards Glasgow. This is to be double lined and up to 40 mph as well .
There has been numerous rumours about the station it’s self being moved and renamed the south Lanarkshire parkway !!!!

The BIgman1234 · 16 Aug 2019

Aictos said:
Is that Carstairs East Junction into Carstairs station?

Can you clarify the location of said line please?

Yes .

Tobbes · 16 Aug 2019

The BIgman1234 said:
Coming from Edinburgh towards Carlisle this is supposed to be going up to 40 mph , from the east to south junctions . Then at the east Junction there is a single line connection which takes u towards Glasgow. This is to be double lined and up to 40 mph as well .

Sounds like excellent news - many thanks. Do you know what the speed limit was on the old avoiding line from Carlisle to Edinbugh? Not sure when it was removed, but it is still clear on Google maps.

The BIgman1234 · 16 Aug 2019

Tobbes said:
Sounds like excellent news - many thanks. Do you know what the speed limit was on the old avoiding line from Carlisle to Edinbugh? Not sure when it was removed, but it is still clear on Google maps.

Not sure what the speed would be,long long before my time . I believe it was called the Dolphinton line . The east Junction is still sometimes referred to as Dolphinton Junction.

Aictos · 16 Aug 2019

The BIgman1234 said:
Yes .

Do many services use that chord? Apart from the Lowland Sleeper of course?

Mordac · 16 Aug 2019

Hopefully this will eliminate the creepy crawl past the State Hospital. I always shudder to think what'd happen if we were to get stuck on the neutral section there.

Put Kettle On · 16 Aug 2019

The BIgman1234 said:
Not sure what the speed would be,long long before my time . I believe it was called the Dolphinton line . The east Junction is still sometimes referred to as Dolphinton Junction.

Mordac said:
Hopefully this will eliminate the creepy crawl past the State Hospital. I always shudder to think what'd happen if we were to get stuck on the neutral section there.

It was not called the Dolphinton line .
That line ran from a point between Carstairs South & Carstairs East, turning right & then strangely enough heading off to a place called Dolphinton .

There is no creepy crawl past the State Hospital, there is a 30 MPH limit past it .
There is no neutral section near it either .
I don’t see the need to be a drama queen about a railway passing by a secure location for the criminally insane .
Many years ago, I believe the hospital was split in two sections & one part was a lot nearer the railway & accessed by the bridge which is still in place today .

gsnedders · 16 Aug 2019

The BIgman1234 said:
Not sure what the speed would be,long long before my time . I believe it was called the Dolphinton line . The east Junction is still sometimes referred to as Dolphinton Junction.

The Dolphinton line referred to there isn't that; it headed off towards Dolphinton from the Edinburgh line, right by east junction. It was when that line opened in the 1860s that the original alignment from Carlisle to Edinburgh was broken.

InOban · 16 Aug 2019

The problem with that abandoned formation is that it reaches the WCML as it is about to cross the Clyde. You would need an extra bridge.

Put Kettle On · 16 Aug 2019

InOban said:
The problem with that abandoned formation is that it reaches the WCML as it is about to cross the Clyde. You would need an extra bridge.

No it doesn’t , & would not need a new bridge .

The old formation reaches the WCML before it crosses the river Clyde , on the Carstairs side of Float Viaduct

The BIgman1234 · 16 Aug 2019

Mordac said:
Hopefully this will eliminate the creepy crawl past the State Hospital. I always shudder to think what'd happen if we were to get stuck on the neutral section there.

Don’t worry the fence is to protect the patients from the locals 8-)

diamond chap · 16 Aug 2019

Altnabreac said:
Yes, realistically Dalmeny Chord will only happen if there is demand for more E-G via Falkirk High services.

There are a number of options for these:
Fast from Q Street - Haymarket
Falkirk High only
Falkirk, Croy, Linlithgow
Rejig to give direct Bishopbriggs, Lenzie to Edinburgh services.

I tend to think that 6tph all offering a 35-40 min service with 3-4 stops each is probably the optimum solution rather than there being a couple of headline faster services.

Would there be any possibility of some end-to-end E-G demand being catered for by a fast(ish) service routeing to and from Central via Shotts? I appreciate it couldn't be as quick a journey as via Falkirk High, but with the growth of employment around Central (e.g.Barclays on the southern side of the Clyde) the total journey time (including walking to and from the station) could be similar for people with an origin or destination in that area.

Such a service could allow some room for growth to and from the intermediate stations via Falkirk High before committing to further infrastructure.

Scottish HLOS for CP6 (2019-24)

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