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3tph on North Downs Line

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infobleep

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Not impossible with time and money though depends how much of both you have!
I imagine they have all the time in the world going forward, as one can always say we'll do it in x years time. However there is probably no money as it's probably rather expensive and it's only a secondary route. So it will remain something they'd like to do at some point. How long is a piece of string.

Still it was a lovely idea in theory.
 
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infobleep

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So to my eyes that is a problem very much caused by GTRs much larger timetable enhancement, and could / should have been identified and mitigated in advance. Therefore its hardly being created by the much more minor GWR proposal, which equates to an extra two moves per hour only. I don't hear anyone calling for the Thameslink service to be cut back until this problem is solved. Different rules for different operators!
The North Downs line route is a secondary route so that might be why. It's not important enough.
 
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FenMan

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So to my eyes that is a problem very much caused by GTRs much larger timetable enhancement, and could / should have been identified and mitigated in advance. Therefore its hardly being created by the much more minor GWR proposal, which equates to an extra two moves per hour only. I don't hear anyone calling for the Thameslink service to be cut back until this problem is solved. Different rules for different operators!

Smells to me of fail to plan properly, plan to fail. Since it began, this whole thread has been littered with "oh" moments. Does anyone in the DfT or Network Rail know how to build and execute a plan that takes account of the wider picture (level crossings, signalling workloads, requirements to accommodate other TOCs, availability of electric current etc)?

Instead there are people still getting well paid despite one embarrassing failure after another. I hope they enjoy their nice final salary pensions, as it looks they will be enjoying them long before improved rail access to Gatwick Airport from Wales, Western England and the South Midlands is sorted out.
 

infobleep

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You forgot willingness. There has been ample time and I understand funding is available but Network Rail is displaying some resistance to removing the barrier to running more trains, whilst coming up with every excuse possible. Signaller workload at Three Bridges is a recent new obstacle being quoted.
I had thought the level crossing issue was a problem and perhaps incorrectly assumed it would cost too much to deal with. I take back my previous comments to an extent.
 

Wilts Wanderer

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I had thought the level crossing issue was a problem and perhaps incorrectly assumed it would cost too much to deal with. I take back my previous comments to an extent.

It is a problem but there has been a relatively straightforward solution available for some time, with funding available.
 

paul1609

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From my point of view once the 769s take over hand the Redhill to Tonbridge shuttles to GWR as an extension of the Redhill terminators and restore a much needed cross London Route even better extend them to Ashford international.
 

Antman

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The Guildford to Farnham service was fitted in with basically no changes to services on other routes, it's impressive that it was managed at all in my opinion, even though the turnarounds at Guildford are probably longer than ideal. It still leaves Platform 5 and 8 for up GWR services, and 4, 5 and 8 for down GWR services though.
It's also a very useful service..... I am (still) househunting and have a close eye on commute times (schools and work). Driving up the A31/A3 at peak time really isn't attractive. The Hogs back through Guildford desperately needs widening and it can easily be well over an hour to get through if you time it wrong. Direct Guildford to Farnham (slow as it is) is a huge improvement and has opened up a large area that was otherwise out of scope for somewhere to live.... - the NDL is also on our radar. Betchworth etc. But even with 3tph, it'll still be a limited service at some of the intermediate stations. Which is a shame, but I get why..... as for secondary, it's a busy route from GLD to RDG. Standing room only most peak hours. And the trains are rarely empty - in fact just about the only near empty train on the route is the 1821 RDG to GLD XC ..... which is why I like to get it (despite no mobile reception as it's an XC unit). It is a bit unreliable, but it crosses SWR and Southern main routes so it's often victim to other primary routes. I'd not use it at the moment for getting to Gatwick, put it that way..... battery trains would be great, if they can charge up on the move (use the 3rd rails where possible) (worms, can...)

[it also saves the cost of a reasonable good bottle of wine if you have supper out in Guildford..... or rather the train means that you don't have to pay the cab firm....]
 

VT 390

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From my point of view once the 769s take over hand the Redhill to Tonbridge shuttles to GWR as an extension of the Redhill terminators and restore a much needed cross London Route even better extend them to Ashford international.
But would this not mean it would have to cross over all the other lines which are quite busy?
 

Sunset route

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What ever plans the armchair timetablers are going to come up with, you will need to factor in that Gatwick Airport goes down to 5 platforms from May/June 2020 timetable change for two years as they take two platforms out at a time to rebuild to station above as well as the actual platforms themselves.
 

Sunset route

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But would this not mean it would have to cross over all the other lines which are quite busy?

The Tonbridge shuttles already cross over all the lines both directions as the Tonbridge bay is platform 1 the former and very useful through line to London (until someone had a plan). So if combined there would be no more extra movements than now. How reliable the combined service would is anyone’s guess?

I still think the north downs service should be in the remit of the SWT franchise holder, but which ever way you look at it, it’s always someone’s ******* child not quite fitting in with the surrounding networks.

It’s a quite a useful service when heading out west, so if and when crossrail ever opens with it’s one stop connection at Farringdon, I will have to see what offers the best options for my West Country/Welsh journeys in the future.
 

Antman

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GWR won’t want to give up an access to LGW. Empires, when lost, are rarely recovered.

The service is usually run by great helpful staff. Not sure they particularly like doing the vomit comet last train, but who does ? It is currently let down by the units on it. They are pretty old and knackered. Even refurbished interiors are obviously 1990s and awful. And they are old things seemingly constantly under acceleration or braking. Which makes the service feel less good than it could. If you could put on 4 cars and something like an IPEMU (379 type thingy) it’d be much more appealing - as it is, it’s relatively Hobson’s choice. Electrifying ain’t going to happen in my lifetime ....
 

big all

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From my point of view once the 769s take over hand the Redhill to Tonbridge shuttles to GWR as an extension of the Redhill terminators and restore a much needed cross London Route even better extend them to Ashford international.

wow back to what it used to be tonbridge to reading with 5 tadpoles off peak as a fully stopping service :D
 

nw1

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Might have said this before somewhere, but wondering whether the Guildford-Reigate section could be electrified, run by Southern and operate as a Guildford-all stations to Redhill-East Croydon-Clapham Junction-Victoria service? This could give Dorking a genuinely semi-fast, if slighly indirect service, but still an improvement over the very slow existing London services. It would be an extension of one of the existing Reigate to Victoria services.

The Reading Guildford stopping service would then become a GWR shuttle and perhaps that could increase to half hourly all day given some of the comments on how busy that section is.

The Gatwick service could remain as is, but perhaps increase in length.
 
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infobleep

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What ever plans the armchair timetablers are going to come up with, you will need to factor in that Gatwick Airport goes down to 5 platforms from May/June 2020 timetable change for two years as they take two platforms out at a time to rebuild to station above as well as the actual platforms themselves.
I hadn't realised or remembered that was happening then.

I wonder if the people who agreed three trains an hour on the NDL factored that in?
 

infobleep

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The Tonbridge shuttles already cross over all the lines both directions as the Tonbridge bay is platform 1 the former and very useful through line to London (until someone had a plan). So if combined there would be no more extra movements than now. How reliable the combined service would is anyone’s guess?

I still think the north downs service should be in the remit of the SWT franchise holder, but which ever way you look at it, it’s always someone’s ******* child not quite fitting in with the surrounding networks.

It’s a quite a useful service when heading out west, so if and when crossrail ever opens with it’s one stop connection at Farringdon, I will have to see what offers the best options for my West Country/Welsh journeys in the future.
It can be useful for going north but being XC it can be more expensive than going through Central London. Services out of Central London are more plentiful in number, which maybe why.

It is a very useful service to Gatwick Airport, when it runs all the way to Gatwick that is. Mostly it does I guess but not much help when you have a flight to catch and have allowed yourself 2 hours at the airport to check in. I guess maybe one should allow longer but if it's an early morning flight there isn't always a train any earlier.

One can go via Clapham Junction but during certain times of the day, there are no fast trains from Guildford to Clapham Junction, so going that way would be very slow.

Despite all this though, it's not as popular as trains into London and that's why it's secondary and plays second fiddle to everything else in the area
 

Antman

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Might have said this before somewhere, but wondering whether the Guildford-Reigate section could be electrified, run by Southern and operate as a Guildford-all stations to Redhill-East Croydon-Clapham Junction-Victoria service? This could give Dorking a genuinely semi-fast, if slighly indirect service, but still an improvement over the very slow existing London services. It would be an extension of one of the existing Reigate to Victoria services.

The Reading Guildford stopping service would then become a GWR shuttle and perhaps that could increase to half hourly all day given some of the comments on how busy that section is.

The Gatwick service could remain as is, but perhaps increase in length.
If the service wasn't so slow and infrequent on the rest of the route, that would be busy as well..... Guildford, Reigate, Redhill are all a pain for traffic.... but the service is so poor from intermediate stations and moderately poor on this route full stop that it's not used as much as it should be - plus it's historically been unreliable.
 

The Ham

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It can be useful for going north but being XC it can be more expensive than going through Central London. Services out of Central London are more plentiful in number, which maybe why.

It is a very useful service to Gatwick Airport, when it runs all the way to Gatwick that is. Mostly it does I guess but not much help when you have a flight to catch and have allowed yourself 2 hours at the airport to check in. I guess maybe one should allow longer but if it's an early morning flight there isn't always a train any earlier.

One can go via Clapham Junction but during certain times of the day, there are no fast trains from Guildford to Clapham Junction, so going that way would be very slow.

Despite all this though, it's not as popular as trains into London and that's why it's secondary and plays second fiddle to everything else in the area

It is one of those lines that if you were to increase frequencies and/or train lengths you would find that you would still not have enough capacity.

They are certainly much busier than the Ascot Guildford services at Guildford.
 

The Ham

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Might have said this before somewhere, but wondering whether the Guildford-Reigate section could be electrified, run by Southern and operate as a Guildford-all stations to Redhill-East Croydon-Clapham Junction-Victoria service? This could give Dorking a genuinely semi-fast, if slighly indirect service, but still an improvement over the very slow existing London services. It would be an extension of one of the existing Reigate to Victoria services.

The Reading Guildford stopping service would then become a GWR shuttle and perhaps that could increase to half hourly all day given some of the comments on how busy that section is.

The Gatwick service could remain as is, but perhaps increase in length.

Just for clarification are you suggesting
- Reading Gatwick 1tph
- Guildford Victoria via Dorking 1tph
- Reading Guildford 2tph

If that's the case probably it would be better to provide electrification of Wokingham Ash and use 769's for all services but have the 3tph over the Guildford Reading section with the electric powered running.

It would definitely solve the issue with some of the level crossings East of Guildford needing upgrades to allow extra services, however once these were overcome one of the Reading Guildford services could be extended to Gatwick or an extra Reading Gatwick service (so 2tph as well as the 2tph Reading Guildford) be provided.
 

Minstral25

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Just for clarification are you suggesting
- Reading Gatwick 1tph
- Guildford Victoria via Dorking 1tph
- Reading Guildford 2tph

If that's the case probably it would be better to provide electrification of Wokingham Ash and use 769's for all services but have the 3tph over the Guildford Reading section with the electric powered running.

It would definitely solve the issue with some of the level crossings East of Guildford needing upgrades to allow extra services, however once these were overcome one of the Reading Guildford services could be extended to Gatwick or an extra Reading Gatwick service (so 2tph as well as the 2tph Reading Guildford) be provided.

The Guildford to Victoria via Dorking would have to be 2 per hour to match the current Victoria to Reigate services surely, and they wouldn't be fast to East Croydon but call at all stations to Purley as the current service does. The new Thameslink/Southern timetable means there are only 6 trains north of Redhill towards London with no spare paths that can be made available or is the proposer thinking that one of teh existing services is removed. Unlikely to be popular.
 

infobleep

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The Guildford to Victoria via Dorking would have to be 2 per hour to match the current Victoria to Reigate services surely, and they wouldn't be fast to East Croydon but call at all stations to Purley as the current service does. The new Thameslink/Southern timetable means there are only 6 trains north of Redhill towards London with no spare paths that can be made available or is the proposer thinking that one of teh existing services is removed. Unlikely to be popular.
Maybe they only wanted it once an hour with the other starting at Reigate.

After all there are services to Reigate at split at Redhill with those towards Gatwick but this is only in the peaks. Rest of the time it's just to Reigate and no splitting.

As for removing a service I suspect it would require the removal of the Guildford to Redhill service rather than Reigate to Victoria one.

I can make no comment on the viability of it running. SWR did menage to fit in the Farnham to Guildford services. So sometimes lucky things to happen with paths working out. However it may not be the case here.
 

Thebaz

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Might have said this before somewhere, but wondering whether the Guildford-Reigate section could be electrified, run by Southern and operate as a Guildford-all stations to Redhill-East Croydon-Clapham Junction-Victoria service? This could give Dorking a genuinely semi-fast, if slighly indirect service, but still an improvement over the very slow existing London services. It would be an extension of one of the existing Reigate to Victoria services.

I'm sorry but there would be no timing improvement to Dorking services. Currently trains from Dorking to Victoria take 55 minutes and trains from Reigate to Victoria take 48 mins. So if you could extend the Reigate service to Dorking you need to add on the 7 minutes there are between Dorking and Reigate and that gives you a time of 62 minutes.

I remember a few years back SWT ran fast services From Waterloo to Dorking that called only at Vauxhall, Clapham Junction, Wimbledon, Epsom, Ashtead and Leatherhead. Don't know why those were stopped - presumably because of demand and capacity requirements between Epsom and Wimbledon.
 

davetheguard

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wow back to what it used to be tonbridge to reading with 5 tadpoles off peak as a fully stopping service :D

And two & a quarter hours to go the whole way. I can't remember there being many passengers who travelled right through; usually just the traincrew.
 
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big all

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there was quite a bit off moaning when they where separated
not many would choose it for end to end but many from kent to hampshire

many a person will choose home and work around transport links:(
 

JonathanH

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And two & a quarter hours to go the whole way. I can't remember there being hardly any passengers who travelled right through; usually just the traincrew.

That's the thing isn't it - the primary destination for North Downs trains will always be Gatwick, not Tonbridge or Kent so the only train you can extend to Tonbridge would be the one which forms the stopping service.

There is some cross Redhill traffic between the Tonbridge and Guildford lines but I suspect that it isn't that much out of the peaks.
 

nw1

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Just for clarification are you suggesting
- Reading Gatwick 1tph
- Guildford Victoria via Dorking 1tph
- Reading Guildford 2tph

If that's the case probably it would be better to provide electrification of Wokingham Ash and use 769's for all services but have the 3tph over the Guildford Reading section with the electric powered running.

It would definitely solve the issue with some of the level crossings East of Guildford needing upgrades to allow extra services, however once these were overcome one of the Reading Guildford services could be extended to Gatwick or an extra Reading Gatwick service (so 2tph as well as the 2tph Reading Guildford) be provided.

Yes that's the suggestion, with the other Reigate service starting at Reigate as now. Sorry for late reply, forgot about this thread.

Re the other reply: hadn't realised the Reigates were all stations to Purley, I thought they were fast from Redhill to EC or at least Redhill, Purley, EC only - must have had an old service pattern in my head, I thought the Horshams took up the local stops on this section.
 

Bikeman78

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That's the thing isn't it - the primary destination for North Downs trains will always be Gatwick, not Tonbridge or Kent so the only train you can extend to Tonbridge would be the one which forms the stopping service.

There is some cross Redhill traffic between the Tonbridge and Guildford lines but I suspect that it isn't that much out of the peaks.
That's how it was in the 1980s, hourly Reading to Gatwick and hourly Reading to Tonbridge. Though the frequency of the stoppers varied from year to year. I think the stopper was always hourly from Reigate to Tonbridge and Reading to Guildford but in some years it was only two hourly between Guildford and Reigate. In the early 1980s the Gatwick trains didn't stop at Reigate. I think the stops were added in 1985 or 1986.
 

Bikeman78

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Yes that's the suggestion, with the other Reigate service starting at Reigate as now. Sorry for late reply, forgot about this thread.

Re the other reply: hadn't realised the Reigates were all stations to Purley, I thought they were fast from Redhill to EC or at least Redhill, Purley, EC only - must have had an old service pattern in my head, I thought the Horshams took up the local stops on this section.
They were fast until May last year.
 

infobleep

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I was at Redhill this morning and the 8:14 to Reading is booked depart platform 1B. When it comes in it stops beyond the platform 1B sign and the departure screen.

In fact the front, soon to be.back, end of the train stops ahead of the platform 1A departure screen and sign. As can be seen in the two photos. So if you standing by the 1A deapture screen you might think the train is for Tonbridge.

What is the reason the train doesn't stop nearer the end of the platform, where the 1B sign is?

20190815_081230.jpg 20190815_081214.jpg
 

JonathanH

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The train has to stop there - it looks like the southern end of the Reading train is only just clear of the signal on platform 1 which is now by the stairs.

The only grounds for your complaint seems to be that the departure board is showing information for platform 1A at a position less than half way along platform 1 instead of information for platform 1B. However, some people don't realise quite how far down trains at the north end of platform 1 stop so presumably the thought is that having the mid platform indicator shoe information for platform 1A will direct them down the platform.
 

Minstral25

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I'm sorry but there would be no timing improvement to Dorking services. Currently trains from Dorking to Victoria take 55 minutes and trains from Reigate to Victoria take 48 mins. So if you could extend the Reigate service to Dorking you need to add on the 7 minutes there are between Dorking and Reigate and that gives you a time of 62 minutes.

Notwithstanding below, the Reigate to Victoria service sits at Redhill for 6-7 minutes unnecessarily just to allow the platform at Reigate to be cleared, but if the service started at Dorking then maybe this would not be necessary, saving that time on a overall journey.

Yes that's the suggestion, with the other Reigate service starting at Reigate as now. Sorry for late reply, forgot about this thread.

Re the other reply: hadn't realised the Reigates were all stations to Purley, I thought they were fast from Redhill to EC or at least Redhill, Purley, EC only - must have had an old service pattern in my head, I thought the Horshams took up the local stops on this section.

Even so the current intention is to build a 3rd platform at Reigate so that these trains can be extended, which includes additional power and signalling works. This is moving to detailed design phase now as an enabler for the Croydon CARS works. So its unlikely an extension to Dorking would be considered.
 
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