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Thameslink ticketing issue

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CrazyRupes

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Hi,

On the 21st July at the time I was travelling the Thameslink core stations were closed and I needed to get to St Pancras.

I bought a super off peak day return ticket at Three Bridges, believing that I could go via London Bridge and the Northern line. When I got to London Bridge the LU staff told me they were not doing ticket acceptance on Thameslink tickets that day. I had asked a member of Thameslink staff the day before and he assured me that they were doing ticket acceptance when the stations were closed.

When I phoned Thameslink to complain, they said my ticket was not valid as it had London Terminals on it rather than St Pancras. They also said it was the passengers responsibility to check the ticket was valid.

I emailed my complaint to Thameslink and after over 2 weeks they haven’t responded.

So....
Am I naive in thinking that every ticket that comes out of a kiosk should be valid? I specifically selected St Pancras on the ticket machine and yet got a London Terminals ticket out.

I also think I should be compensated by Thameslink for the extra cost of travelling between London Bridge and St Pancras. As the kiosk should have given me a valid ticket and Thameslink should have arranged ticket acceptance.

I’d be glad to know everyone’s thoughts on this.
 
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yorkie

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This is the fare you should have been sold: http://www.brfares.com/#faredetail?orig=TBD&dest=STP&grpd=4452&rte=208&tkt=CBA
From THREE BRIDGES
To LONDON THAMESLNK
Route NOT UNDERGROUND
Are you based near Three Bridges? Can you test the machine again and take photos or a video of the process?

I am not surprised GTR messed up and not surprised they have not responded yet. They are well known for being Britain's worst train company.

Chase them, but if you get nowhere with GTR, the next step is the Rail Ombudsman: https://www.railombudsman.org/making-a-complaint/
 

Starmill

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If you turn up at a station, and state your destination (for example by typing it into a ticket machine) and ask for a ticket for immediate travel, before being given a price and paying it, then you must be transported to that destination at that price, unless you agree to a refund or other change. You cannot be asked to pay more to reach your destination.

In particular, it seems you've clarified the situation with regards to engineering work in advance, so this is a red herring.
 

RJ

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A London Terminals ticket is not valid to St Pancras from Three Bridges.

I think it needs to be established for certain that St Pancras specifically was selected from the machine and not London Terminals with the expectation it is one and the same as St Pancras.
 

CrazyRupes

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I think it needs to be established for certain that St Pancras specifically was selected from the machine and not London Terminals with the expectation it is one and the same as St Pancras.

I specifically typed London St Pancras into the kiosk at Three Bridges.

Are you based near Three Bridges? Can you test the machine again and take photos or a video of the process?

I am not surprised GTR messed up and not surprised they have not responded yet. They are well known for being Britain's worst train company.

Chase them, but if you get nowhere with GTR, the next step is the Rail Ombudsman: https://www.railombudsman.org/making-a-complaint/

I actually sent a video of me buying a St Pancras to Three Bridges return ticket to GTR that day. I will see if I can find the video.
 

RJ

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If you turn up at a station, and state your destination (for example by typing it into a ticket machine) and ask for a ticket for immediate travel, before being given a price and paying it, then you must be transported to that destination at that price, unless you agree to a refund or other change. You cannot be asked to pay more to reach your destination.

I don't think this is the case. Many self service machines sell you tickets that don't cover the whole journey. This has been the case for many years so I don't think there is any such requirement.
 

CrazyRupes

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I don't think this is the case. Many self service machines sell you tickets that don't cover the whole journey. This has been the case for many years so I don't think there is any such requirement.

But surely it that case the kiosk should tell you that it’s only giving you a ticket for part of the journey?
 

jon0844

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I remember when a ticket to Blackfriars from the north would give you a London Terminals ticket. It was subsequently fixed, but perhaps the same issue from the south hasn't been.

I posted screen shots on here somewhere a year or two ago as an example.
 

CrazyRupes

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This is the video I sent GTR.

Now the ticket I got is London Terminals Thameslink only. Therefore from what I understand there is no way of me using this ticket to get anywhere.
 

yorkie

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I don't think this is the case. Many self service machines sell you tickets that don't cover the whole journey. This has been the case for many years so I don't think there is any such requirement.
I'm not so sure; the fact that some train companies (including GTR in particular) have been breaching consumer law for a long time does not make them exempt.

In this case, there is a ticket available from Three Bridges to London Thameslink, which is the appropriate ticket to sell when a customer requests a ticket to London St Pancras, but the machine is issuing tickets to London Terminals instead, which is clearly incorrect.

Let's leave aside issues of other routes and journeys where the same principle may not apply.

I would not only write to the Rail Ombudsman but the ORR. Make it clear in your letter to the ORR that you are alleging a suspected breach of consumer law; that the appropriate ticket does exist and is not being sold at the TVMs, but is being sold at the ticket office.

What warning notices (if any) are displayed on the TVM? GTR are legally required to provide a notice stating that the full range of destinations is not available from the TVM in this case and that passengers should visit the ticket office if they require the full range.


This is the video I sent GTR.
That's an interesting video showing the same problem in reverse from an EMT machine at St Pancras; can you also get a video of a GTR machine at Three Bridges doing the same thing in the opposite direction?

GTR are doing a lot of things that they shouldn't be doing; I predict they will end up in hot water one day. Mark my words...
 

Paul Kelly

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In my opinion, blaming the ticket vending machines shifts the focus away from where it should be: problems with the database (specifically the complications of a station being a member of more than one fares group) and the lack of group effort by the TOCs and RDG to work collaboratively with relevant parties to come up with a solution.
 

Starmill

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I don't think this is the case. Many self service machines sell you tickets that don't cover the whole journey. This has been the case for many years so I don't think there is any such requirement.
If you find a machine doing this, then the machine is broken, clearly, and should be fixed by the train company or taken out of service until such time as it can be fixed...

If you have selected a destination, and then paid for a ticket, you have bought the right to be transported to that destination. This is a pretty basic part of your contract.
 

Iggy12a

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It's exactly the same problem at Gatwick. If you type in your destination as London Paddington/Euston/Marylebone/Liverpool St, you are then given a choice of routing options. If you select "not Gatwick Express", the machine then proceeds to sell you a London Terminals not via Gatwick Express, for £16.70 which will presumably be swallowed by the ticket barriers at Victoria, and most certainly will not be accepted for onward travel on the underground.
 

Paul Kelly

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It's exactly the same problem at Gatwick. If you type in your destination as London Paddington/Euston/Marylebone/Liverpool St, you are then given a choice of routing options. If you select "not Gatwick Express", the machine then proceeds to sell you a London Terminals not via Gatwick Express, for £16.70 which will presumably be swallowed by the ticket barriers at Victoria, and most certainly will not be accepted for onward travel on the underground.
That's not the same problem at all. The problem in the OP is about stations on the Thameslink core, which are both in the LONDON TERMINALS and LONDON THAMESLNK fares groups, and directly reachable by National Rail services from stations on the Brighton mainline.
 

hkstudent

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I think this case should also be referred to London Travelwatch as it involves travel to London. I am pretty sure that many tourists from Gatwick Airport may also fall into this ticketing trap.
 

RJ

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I specifically typed London St Pancras into the kiosk at Three Bridges.

Thank you for confirming that. In that case, GTR should be notified and correct the machine at the earliest opportunity and the same goes to EMT.

If you find a machine doing this, then the machine is broken, clearly, and should be fixed by the train company or taken out of service until such time as it can be fixed...

If you have selected a destination, and then paid for a ticket, you have bought the right to be transported to that destination. This is a pretty basic part of your contract.

It happens at some London Terminals where the TVMs will sell tickets that might not be valid from that station. I'm not convinced the TOCs will take the machines out of service for any period of time because of this, but in an ideal word this problem wouldn't exist. I spent quite a bit of time refunding tickets people bought from TVMs and got bounced away from the Underground because the ticket had no validity there.
 

BluePenguin

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I specifically typed London St Pancras into the kiosk at Three Bridges.



I actually sent a video of me buying a St Pancras to Three Bridges return ticket to GTR that day. I will see if I can find the video.
Can we see that video if you still have it?
 

WesternLancer

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I still have in my wallet a ticket I bought in mid July from the Thameslink machine at St Pancras (by their gateline) an Off Peak Rtn 'London Terminals' to 'Polegate' - "valid via any permitted route" but no cross on it to indicate valid on the tube, (price £38.10) as I wanted to get on a Thameslink train at St Pancras to Haywards Heath, change there fro Polegate train, and return to St P the next day, which I did.

This lead me to believe that St Pancras is a valid 'London Terminal' for journeys to / from such southern stations.

The ticket barriers accepted the tickets in both outward and return direction.

Does this example from Three Bridges mean that this Polegate example is not in fact valid to / from St Pancras even though I bought it there?
 

yorkie

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I still have in my wallet a ticket I bought in mid July from the Thameslink machine at St Pancras (by their gateline) an Off Peak Rtn 'London Terminals' to 'Polegate' - "valid via any permitted route" but no cross on it to indicate valid on the tube, (price £38.10) as I wanted to get on a Thameslink train at St Pancras to Haywards Heath, change there fro Polegate train, and return to St P the next day, which I did.

This lead me to believe that St Pancras is a valid 'London Terminal' for journeys to / from such southern stations.

The ticket barriers accepted the tickets in both outward and return direction.

Does this example from Three Bridges mean that this Polegate example is not in fact valid to / from St Pancras even though I bought it there?
Ticket you should have been sold: http://www.brfares.com/#faredetail?orig=STP&dest=PLG&rte=208&tkt=SVR

Ticket you were actually sold: http://www.brfares.com/#faredetail?orig=1072&dest=PLG&tkt=SVR

The price is the same, £38.10, yet the ticket you were sold was technically invalid (though de facto valid under contract and consumer laws, IMO)

They should just say that London Terminals tickets are valid via Farringdon and be done with it!
 
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WesternLancer

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Ticket you should have been sold: http://www.brfares.com/#faredetail?orig=STP&dest=PLG&rte=208&tkt=SVR

Ticket you were actually sold: http://www.brfares.com/#faredetail?orig=STP&dest=PLG&grpo=4452&rte=208&tkt=SVR

The price is the same, £38.10, yet the ticket you were sold was technically invalid (though de facto valid under contract and consumer laws, IMO)

They should just say that London Terminals tickets are valid via Farringdon and be done with it!

Thanks Yorkie

Of course neither of those state 'London Terminals' (though I am sure you are correct!)

How on earth is anyone supposed to understand this? I guess the TVM is wrongly set up since I don't recall it offering me a choice of those two options, albeit at the same price!

And I did study this carefully at point of purchase since I had a longstanding hunch that tickets from former BR(SR) stations to 'London Terminals' were only valid to the old BR(SR) terminals of which St P is not one - so I did want to be sure i could validly travel from and back to St P (but buying the ticket at St P was of course my way of making sure this was correct, in theory at least).

As I tend not to like TVM purchases I would have gone to the ticket office but that was impractical as they had a massive slow moving queue and I think no more that 2 or 3 windows staffed (it was at about 18.30 hours). I wonder what they would have sold had i bought from a member of staff...?
 

yorkie

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I've amended it to this link http://www.brfares.com/#faredetail?orig=1072&dest=PLG&tkt=SVR but yes they are all the same price.

How on earth is anyone supposed to understand this?
You could write to GTR enclosing a photo of your ticket and ask if it is valid for the journey you made, if they say no, ask what action(s) they may take if an inspector encountered a passenger using such a ticket.

It will be interesting to see if they provide an incriminating answer or maybe the company realises its a mess and instructs all its staff to honour such tickets.
 

sheff1

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Thank you for confirming that. In that case, GTR should be notified and correct the machine at the earliest opportunity and the same goes to EMT.

EMT were notified about the issue at least 3 years ago (probably longer) and it had not been rectified when I was last in London a month or so back.
 

maniacmartin

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Careful what you wish for, because sometimes TOCs will "fix" the issue in a way you didn't expect.
In the last few weeks, the new S&B TVMs at my local Southern-run station, Purley, have had a change implemented.

You can no longer search for St Pancras - it looks like its just been deleted from the list of stations the TVMs know about.
Also, the 'tickets from another origin' facility has had a load of tickets deleted. ie if you search for London Bridge to Rochester or London Bridge to Hastings, you're now told that no fares exist for that journey. Presumably because people might buy the PLUS HS1 ticket, then expect cross-London travel to be included from the station whose name they actually typed. A fair few Boundary Zone flows have also vanished.

This is a rather annoying change for me, because I often (~3x a week) used that facility to buy tickets for my partner the night before the journey was to be made. Because Southern's ticket office opening hours bear no resemblance to the advertised ones, I now have to queue to buy the tickets at a busy London Terminal. (Not prepared to buy online as the touchscreens are very iffy on these TVMs and I have before been left unable to collect the tickets as it wont register keypresses for some of the ToD characters)
 
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