Northern Class 195: Initial Diagrams

Boysteve said:

However the original 'circuit 7' has NOT strengthened the peak time C2C service this evening.

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js1000 said:

Circuit 7 was coupled with circuit 6 this morning (the 06:13 from Liverpool & 07:48 from Wilmslow) so not sure why they are not strengthening this afternoon and it's only a single three carriage unit.

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Going by what units were on what diagrams this afternoon, and tracing movements on RTT, I would say that 195120 was on Diagram 7 this morning, doubling up with 195114 on Diagram 6. 195120 appears to have uncoupled after the Wilmslow, as usual, but at 1116 taken over Diagram 5, which had missed completely up to that point.

Bovverboy said:

Going by what units were on what diagrams this afternoon, and tracing movements on RTT, I would say that 195120 was on Diagram 7 this morning, doubling up with 195114 on Diagram 6. 195120 appears to have uncoupled after the Wilmslow, as usual, but at 1116 taken over Diagram 5, which had missed completely up to that point.

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Yes makes sense, use the unit for circuit 7 to cover for the none-availability of the unit for circuit 5!

There have been so many cancellations today I had to ask myself if it was not a Monday, but a Sunday.

The following list of cancellations may or may not be complete.

0650 Airport - Liverpool cancelled
0816 Liverpool - Airport cancelled
0949 Airport - Liverpool cancelled
(Bearing in mind that there were two 195/0s and two 195/1s in use on Airport - Liverpools at the time, the obvious question is why could they not have covered three diagrams - even doubling up on one. Of course, if there was a shortage of train crew - not admitted - the answer is equally obvious).

0522 Airport - Barrow cancelled
0929 Airport - Barrow cancelled
1634 Airport - Barrow cancelled Airport - Oxford Road (actually ran ECS)
1729 Airport - Windermere cancelled Oxenholme - Windermere
(There may have been subsequent cancellations on the Oxenholme - Windermere shuttle, I'm not sure at the moment).

0647 Barrow - Airport cancelled
0846 Barrow - Airport cancelled Lancaster - Preston
(The unit used from Barrow appears to have been taken off at Lancaster to operate the 1013 Lancaster - Carlisle. A Class 156 was used to cover the Preston to Airport section, this seems to have stayed on the diagram for the rest of the day).
1353 Barrow - Airport cancelled Lancaster - Airport (ran ECS, shown on RTT as two 'hops', Lancaster - Preston and Preston - Airport; note that the unit then returned ECS to Oxford Road to work the uncancelled part of the 1634 Airport - Barrow)
1446 Barrow - Airport cancelled (replacement unit sent ECS Newton Heath - Airport to work 1729 Airport - Windermere)

I've had a go at working out the diagrams which have just gone 195-operated. On Barrow/Windermere they seem to be as follows.

Blackpool start (I'll call it Diagram 8)
0457 Blackpool North CMD - Lancaster ECS
0559 Lancaster - Windermere
0643 Windermere - Oxenholme
0728 Oxenholme - Windermere
0755 Windermere - Oxenholme
0827 Oxenholme - Windermere
0851 Windermere - Oxenholme
0930 Oxenholme - Windermere
0956 Windermere - Manchester Airport
1229 Manchester Airport - Barrow
1507 Barrow - Barrow Carriage Sidings ECS
1850 Barrow Carriage Sidings - Barrow ECS
1855 Barrow - Preston
2036 Preston - Newton Heath T&RSMD ECS

Barrow start (I'll call it Diagram 9)
0702 Barrow Carriage Sidings - Barrow ECS
0708 Barrow - Lancaster
0823 Lancaster - Barrow
0934 Barrow - Barrow Carriage Sidings ECS
1135 Barrow Carriage Sidings - Barrow ECS
1146 Barrow - Manchester Airport
1429 Manchester Airport - Windermere
1706 Windermere - Oxenholme
1742 Oxenholme - Windermere
1807 Windermere - Oxenholme
1829 Oxenholme - Windermere
1855 Windermere - Manchester Airport
2234 Manchester Airport - Blackpool North (via Bolton)
0029 Blackpool North - Blackpool North CMD ECS

Note that, on Monday 12/8/19 the 195 operating the above diagram was taken off and replaced by a 156 at some point between leaving Manchester Airport at 1429 and getting back nearly seven hours later. Realistically, this could only have occurred at Preston on the way back from Windermere (there is a scheduled dwell from 1954 to 2011). No ECS movements are shown on RTT, however.
I can see the point - taking the 195 off the above diagram means one doesn't need to be sent from Liverpool Lime Street ready to do the Preston start the following morning. There's no indication on RTT that this is going to become a regular manoeuvre, but that doesn't mean that it can't become one. I haven't found the source of the 156.
Note also the 2234 journey Manchester Airport - Blackpool North, entirely 'under the wires'.

The following diagram was 156-operated on Monday 12/8/19, but as it would be capable of being 195-operated I'll include it here.

Newton Heath start (I'll call it Diagram 10)
0449 Newton Heath T&RSMD - Manchester Airport ECS
0522 Manchester Airport - Barrow
0811 Barrow - Barrow via Barrow Carriage Sidings ECS
0846 Barrow - Manchester Airport
1129 Manchester Airport - Windermere
1407 Windermere - Oxenholme
1438 Oxenholme - Windermere
1459 Windermere - Oxenholme
1532 Oxenholme - Windermere
1605 Windermere - Manchester Airport
1829 Manchester Airport - Barrow
2117 Barrow - Barrow Carriage Sidings ECS

Finally, the additional 195 diagrams on Manchester Airport - Liverpool.

Liverpool Lime Street start (I'll call it Diagram 11)
0337 Liverpool - Manchester Airport
0551 Manchester Airport - Liverpool (Rear Unit)
0709 Liverpool - Manchester Oxford Road (Front Unit)
0912 Manchester Oxford Road - Liverpool (Rear Unit)
1016 Liverpool - Manchester Airport (Front Unit)
1150 Manchester Airport - Liverpool (Rear Unit)
1316 Liverpool - Manchester Airport (Front Unit)
1450 Manchester Airport - Liverpool (Rear Unit)
1616 Liverpool - Manchester Airport (Front Unit)
1750 Manchester Airport - Liverpool (Rear Unit)
1915 Liverpool - Manchester Airport (Front Unit)
2047 Manchester Airport - Liverpool (Rear Unit)
2224 Liverpool - Manchester Airport
0017 Manchester Airport - Newton Heath T&RSMD ECS

Newton Heath start (I'll call it Diagram 12)
0507 Newton Heath T&RSMD - Manchester Airport ECS
0551 Manchester Airport - Liverpool (Front Unit)
0709 Liverpool - Manchester Oxford Road (Rear Unit)
0912 Manchester Oxford Road - Liverpool (Front Unit)
1016 Liverpool - Manchester Airport (Rear Unit)
1150 Manchester Airport - Liverpool (Front Unit)
1316 Liverpool - Manchester Airport (Rear Unit)
1450 Manchester Airport - Liverpool (Front Unit)
1616 Liverpool - Manchester Airport (Rear Unit)
1750 Manchester Airport - Liverpool (Front Unit)
1916 Liverpool - Manchester Airport (Rear Unit)
2047 Manchester Airport - Liverpool (Front Unit)

Diagrams 11 and 12 are booked for 195/0s. If two 195/0s are not available then Diagram 11 will usually run with a single 195/0, or a single 195/1, and Diagram 12 will not operate.
At 2224 only the unit operating Diagram 11 departs Liverpool for Manchester Airport, the unit operating Diagram 12 remains in the platform at Lime Street ready to work the next morning's 0337 departure, (i.e. Diagram 11).

Note that, if the above routine continues uninterrupted, each unit gets back to Newton Heath every other night.

Bovverboy said:

Going by what units were on what diagrams this afternoon, and tracing movements on RTT, I would say that 195120 was on Diagram 7 this morning, doubling up with 195114 on Diagram 6. 195120 appears to have uncoupled after the Wilmslow, as usual, but at 1116 taken over Diagram 5, which had missed completely up to that point.

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Yes that is spot on I was on the morning Wilmslow and it was formed 114 and 120

sd0733 said:

Yes that is spot on I was on the morning Wilmslow and it was formed 114 and 120

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Will that still be double when all the Pacers have gone and 15x have been cascaded? Will there be enough 195s to cover then?

Jamesrob637 said:

Will that still be double when all the Pacers have gone and 15x have been cascaded? Will there be enough 195s to cover then?

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Prior to this week there were 23x195/1 and 25x195/0 still to enter service, and 92 two-car and 10 three-car Pacers still to be withdrawn. (With Northern, that is).
Going by the logic that a carriage's total passenger capacity is approximately directly related to its length, we had 119x24m still to enter service (2856m) and 214x15.5m still to be withdrawn (3317m).
So the conclusion is that there is going to be reduced total capacity after the current changes than there is now. Whether or not that means more short-forming depends on what size of formation is considered acceptable, that's something which seems a bit arbitrary.
Note that the total length of carriages introduced this week (10x24m=240m) equates almost exactly to the total length of the carriages being withdrawn (16x15.5=248m).

Bovverboy said:

Prior to this week there were 23x195/1 and 25x195/0 still to enter service, and 92 two-car and 10 three-car Pacers still to be withdrawn. (With Northern, that is).
Going by the logic that a carriage's total passenger capacity is approximately directly related to its length, we had 119x24m still to enter service (2856m) and 214x15.5m still to be withdrawn (3317m).
So the conclusion is that there is going to be reduced total capacity after the current changes than there is now. Whether or not that means more short-forming depends on what size of formation is considered acceptable, that's something which seems a bit arbitrary.
Note that the total length of carriages introduced this week (10x24m=240m) equates almost exactly to the total length of the carriages being withdrawn (16x15.5=248m).

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8 metres is the length of my living room give or take. That's academic over a week. Maybe over a day, but a week's here nor there. I do thank you for the explanation though!

The 16:45 MAN Airport to Liverpool has been cancelled tonight (Circuit 6) however the return to MAN Airport does not feature on Journey Check. Presumably a 195 will be waiting at L.Lime Street to form the return?

Bovverboy said:

Prior to this week there were 23x195/1 and 25x195/0 still to enter service, and 92 two-car and 10 three-car Pacers still to be withdrawn. (With Northern, that is).
Going by the logic that a carriage's total passenger capacity is approximately directly related to its length, we had 119x24m still to enter service (2856m) and 214x15.5m still to be withdrawn (3317m).

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Whilst all true there are other factors to consider as well. I am certain that there are a handful of 150s are still to arrive from other operators, and also more 331s are due to arrive than EMUs that may disappear (321/322s etc). So if Northern can be a bit more clever (ahem!) and reduce diesel running under the wires then maybe there is more of a balance. There is also the 769 Flex too which I am sure will be in service as soon as I finish typing this sentence

Jamesrob637 said:

The 16:45 MAN Airport to Liverpool has been cancelled tonight (Circuit 6) however the return to MAN Airport does not feature on Journey Check. Presumably a 195 will be waiting at L.Lime Street to form the return?

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On the 1516 ex-Lime Street it was terminated at Warrington Central, after having apparently come to a stand somewhere between Halewood and Hough Green. It's now scheduled to return to Liverpool, in the path it would have had had it remained in service, but it looks to be going ECS all the same. So anything could happen, yet.

It's now left Warrington Central several minutes behind schedule after having been required to give precedence to a very late-running (21L) Oxford Road to Lime Street stopper. At first glance this does seem to defeat the point of putting it back on its original schedule, but perhaps it means it is going to pick up the 1816 ex-Lime Street, since letting the stopper go first does mean they can both use the same platform at Lime Street.

Bovverboy said:

It's now left Warrington Central several minutes behind schedule after having been required to give precedence to a very late-running (21L) Oxford Road to Lime Street stopper. At first glance this does seem to defeat the point of putting it back on its original schedule, but perhaps it means it is going to pick up the 1816 ex-Lime Street, since letting the stopper go first does mean they can both use the same platform at Lime Street.

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They've gone into different platforms at Lime Street after all, but it does look as though whatever is working Diagram 6 is going to continue as the 1816 Liverpool - Airport.

Bovverboy said:

Prior to this week there were 23x195/1 and 25x195/0 still to enter service, and 92 two-car and 10 three-car Pacers still to be withdrawn. (With Northern, that is).
Going by the logic that a carriage's total passenger capacity is approximately directly related to its length, we had 119x24m still to enter service (2856m) and 214x15.5m still to be withdrawn (3317m).
So the conclusion is that there is going to be reduced total capacity after the current changes than there is now. Whether or not that means more short-forming depends on what size of formation is considered acceptable, that's something which seems a bit arbitrary.
Note that the total length of carriages introduced this week (10x24m=240m) equates almost exactly to the total length of the carriages being withdrawn (16x15.5=248m).

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The above calculation ignores the 20x153s (20x23=460m). As far as we know Northern has no intention of keeping any of these after the 195s and 769s are all in service. If the 8x769s are all counted as diesel stock they total 32x20m=640m. And there is a total of 12x20m=240m of Class 150 vehicles still to be cascaded in from GWR. So 3736m of 195 + 769 + 150 still to enter service, versus 3777m of 14x + 153 to be withdrawn - only 41m shortfall!

But arguably vehicle count is more meaningful than total carriage length: only 163 vehicles to enter service versus 234 to be withdrawn.

Don't forget the refurbishment program, which has temporarily reduced the size of the fleet.

Chris125 said:

Don't forget the refurbishment program, which has temporarily reduced the size of the fleet.

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The refurbishment programme doesn't alter any of the above figures, the above is intended to paint a picture of how things are going to be when all the current comings and goings are completed.

But while we're on the subject of the refurbishment programme, perhaps you could tell us why, if it has temporarily reduced the size of the fleet, Pacers are being withdrawn.

Bovverboy said:

Liverpool Lime Street start (I'll call it Diagram 11)
0337 Liverpool - Manchester Airport
....
0017 Manchester Airport - Newton Heath T&RSMD ECS

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What is actually happening so it can be the same units each day? I think it starts

5F90 0507 Newton Heath T.M.D. to Manchester Airport
1F90 0551 Manchester Airport to Liverpool Lime Street

JonathanH said:

What is actually happening so it can be the same units each day? I think it starts

5F90 0507 Newton Heath T.M.D. to Manchester Airport
1F90 0551 Manchester Airport to Liverpool Lime Street

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Sorry, I listed the duties as I think they're going to be when running 'normally'. This week, because of engineering work taking place between Piccadilly and the Airport, the 0337 ex-Liverpool is being terminated at Piccadilly and being covered independently of the rest of the diagram. As you point out, at the moment the diagram is starting from Newton Heath. This may become the regular routine, or it may not, I think we'll need to wait a week or two before we can say with confidence what a particular diagram is going to do.

Correction. What I think is happening this week is that the 2224 ex-Lime Street (which, presumably because of the aforementioned engineering - sorry, improvement - works, is being terminated at Piccadilly) is running as a single 195/0, with the second unit being left at Lime Street to do the 0337 Lime Street - Piccadilly. After that journey (i.e. the 0337 ex-Lime Street) it runs ECS to Victoria (via Eccles!) to couple up with the second unit. If things operate how they appear to do on RTT, each unit should get back to Newton Heath every other night for fuelling. So 195007 should have been at the Liverpool end of the formation today.
This routine doesn't depend on the 0337 being terminated at Piccadilly, it could continue to the Airport and wait there for the second unit to arrive. So it will be interesting to see what happens next week.

EDIT: RTT says that is indeed what is going to happen.

Between us, we have recorded eleven 195/1s in service (102, 114 - 122 and 125) and two 195/0s (001 and 007). Anyone seen any others?

I am provisionally looking at catching the 16:34 off the Airport (Circuit 1) from East Didsbury to Preston or Lancaster, changing onto VT from there to bonny Edinburgh. This will be on Monday 30 September, so 6-7 weeks off yet. Will the original diagrams from early-July stay 195-operated now?

Jamesrob637 said:

I am provisionally looking at catching the 16:34 off the Airport (Circuit 1) from East Didsbury to Preston or Lancaster, changing onto VT from there to bonny Edinburgh. This will be on Monday 30 September, so 6-7 weeks off yet. Will the original diagrams from early-July stay 195-operated now?

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As of this week, more Airport - Barrow/Windermere diagrams have gone 195-operated, but it's a bit early to say which diagrams are likely to be 195-operated, and which not. However the 1634 ex-Airport has been 195-operated from 1/7/19, and I would say that it's a particularly reliable diagram for expecting a 195. There's a greater risk of it being cancelled altogether.

Another risk is it being terminated at Oxford Road or Piccadilly (ex-Lakes), and another regular thing is for stops between the Airport and Piccadilly to be skipped (in either direction) in order to make up time. So, if it were me, I would get myself to at least Piccadilly, and check on Realtime Trains that the southbound working is running reasonably okay.

As to changes, the only ones I am aware of come in on 15/9/19 and 27/10/19, and they only affect Sunday AM journeys.

Bovverboy said:

As of this week, more Airport - Barrow/Windermere diagrams have gone 195-operated, but it's a bit early to say which diagrams are likely to be 195-operated, and which not. However the 1634 ex-Airport has been 195-operated from 2/7/19, and I would say that it's a particularly reliable diagram for expecting a 195. There's a greater risk of it being cancelled altogether.

Another risk is it being terminated at Oxford Road or Piccadilly (ex-Lakes), and another regular thing is for stops between the Airport and Piccadilly to be skipped (in either direction) in order to make up time. So, if it were me, I would get myself to at least Piccadilly, and check on Realtime Trains that the southbound working is running reasonably okay.

As to changes, the only ones I am aware of come in on 15/9/19 and 27/10/19, and they only affect Sunday AM journeys.

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Aye, I appreciate cancelling at Piccadilly can be commonplace. I might book my ticket from Stockport or Heaton Chapel (same price) and pick up the Barrow train at Picc or Ox. Road.

I can't get to Picc while it's still running on the southbound as I need to work until around 4pm

geoffk said:

Between us, we have recorded eleven 195/1s in service (102, 114 - 122 and 125) and two 195/0s (001 and 007). Anyone seen any others?

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geoffk said:

Getting away from doors for a moment, the 11.50 MIA - Liverpool was a pair of 2-car units this morning - 195001/007. I saw them later on the 14.50. I also noted 195125 on a Barrow service. Anyone know how many units came into service today?

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Jack Brown said:

195001
195007
195124
195125

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There was the above response to your own query on the '195 Construction & Updates' thread. I'm reasonably confident that, on Monday of this week, 195124 and 195125 worked the 1229 Airport to Barrow and 1429 Airport to Windermere, but I don't know which did which. I saw both, but wasn't quite close enough to confidently identify them. The 1229 doesn't return again to the Airport the same day, and by the time the 1429 got back it had been replaced by a Sprinter.
P.S. Does anyone know what's happened to 195102? I'm sure I haven't seen it for a while.

For those of you who had been hoping to see a 195 on a CLC stopper, it looks as though whatever was working 195 Diagram 11 yesterday (Wednesday 14/8/19) operated the 1016 Oxford Road to Liverpool Lime Street stopper in lieu of the 0912 Oxford Road to Liverpool semi-fast, which was cancelled.
Can anyone say what unit(s) did operate this journey?

Apart from 195102, which, as I hinted in post 324, above, seems to have been out of circulation for a while, all 195s which are known to have seen public service have been in use this afternoon, although not all at the same time, 195001/007 having replaced 195120, and, only then, after the diagram had missed completely for three and a half hours.

195126 has come up this evening from Crewe to Wigan Wallgate Carriage Sidings, after a few test runs to/from Preston. I don't believe this train has seen passenger service yet. It would be nice to see active testing involving commissioning doors though to alleviate the bug with the ASDO system:

Today's list of cancellations on the routes which are now predominantly 195-operated seems quite modest relative to that for Monday of this week, but it's still greater than that for most services. Cancellations seem so routine I'm not sure they make news anymore, anyway, here goes.
Diagram 3
1645 Barrow - Manchester Airport cancelled
1929 Manchester Airport - Barrow cancelled
Diagram 5
2016 Liverpool - Manchester Airport cancelled
2148 Manchester Airport - Liverpool cancelled
Diagram 11
0551 Manchester Airport - Liverpool cancelled
1316 Liverpool - Manchester Airport cancelled after Oxford Road
1450 Manchester Airport - Liverpool cancelled
1616 Liverpool - Manchester Airport cancelled
Of the above, all cancellations were put down to staffing issues, except for the afternoon cancellations on Diagram 11, which were ascribed to problems with the doors.
Note that the 2249 journey Manchester Airport - Liverpool semi-fast was also cancelled, however this operates via Chat Moss, and is non-195 operated. (It forms from the stock of the 2055 Liverpool - Manchester Airport CLC stopper).
Please note that with reference to the list of presumed diagrams I detailed in post #304, one needs amending (already), Diagram 8 does not seem to do a Barrow - Lancaster after arrival from Manchester Airport, it almost certainly does 1855 Barrow - Preston then goes ECS to Newton Heath. I don't know if it does anything in between its arrival ex-Manchester Airport and its departure for Preston, but it seems unlikely that it does.

Bovverboy said:

A small number of journeys on Airport - Barrow are likely to remain 156-operated as a means of transferring them between Barrow and Newton Heath.

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On Monday of this week (12/8/19), two 156s finished up on late journeys on Airport - Barrow/Windermere, but last night (Thursday 15/8/19) none did. That sort of scuppers my theory about 156s getting back to Newton Heath, since, if they were going to get back, there would, I'm sure, be a regular diagram enabling that, and, almost certainly, at least one such diagram a day. Neither can I see any obvious way of 156s from Cumbrian Coast duties getting to Neville Hill via the S & C, or to Heaton via the Tyne Valley route.
Given that Cumbrian Coast sets will need to get to a TMD for exams, etc, does anyone know how it's going to be done?

Bovverboy said:

Given that Cumbrian Coast sets will need to get to a TMD for exams, etc, does anyone know how it's going to be done?

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Could they be swapped at Carlisle to get them on to a Newcastle or Morpeth service?