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WCML New Rolling Stock Discussion

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superalbs

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Now that FirstGroup / Trenitalia have won the West Coast, we know that there is a sizable stock order, some to displace current stock and some to expand.

Some electric, and some bi-mode, the intention being to displace the Voyager fleet.

But it would be interesting to know if the new stock will be able to tilt? And if this could have a negative effect on journey times, if they don't? That then opens up the question of who is actually offering a tilting unit to the UK at the moment?
 
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hwl

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Now that FirstGroup / Trenitalia have won the West Coast, we know that there is a sizable stock order, some to displace current stock and some to expand.

Some electric, and some bi-mode, the intention being to displace the Voyager fleet.

But it would be interesting to know if the new stock will be able to tilt? And if this could have a negative effect on journey times, if they don't? That then opens up the question of who is actually offering a tilting unit to the UK at the moment?
Alstom and Bombardier both currently have working tilt systems available for new stock and Hitachi could possibly try to license the Bombardier technology as it is used on the HS trains they jointly manufacture for the italian market.
 

irish_rail

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Surely the fact that an 802 derivative would out accelerate a pendolino on electric negates the need for tilt? 802 on electric beats a pendolino hands down.
 

AM9

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Now that FirstGroup / Trenitalia have won the West Coast, we know that there is a sizable stock order, some to displace current stock and some to expand.

Some electric, and some bi-mode, the intention being to displace the Voyager fleet.

But it would be interesting to know if the new stock will be able to tilt? And if this could have a negative effect on journey times, if they don't? That then opens up the question of who is actually offering a tilting unit to the UK at the moment?
Would the current main fleet need to be replaced before 2026 (or whenever HS2 is operational)? Provided the 390s can be maintained well enough for full service over the next 6 years, there is only a need to supplement them with a few sets of other 125mph trains, (the voyagers would seem to be prime candidates for replacement with some kind of bi-mode).
After HS2 is operational, an orderly programme of 390 replacement would be appropriate, by which time there will be a reasonable choice of high capacity high speed EMUs available.
 

Aictos

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Surely the fact that an 802 derivative would out accelerate a pendolino on electric negates the need for tilt? 802 on electric beats a pendolino hands down.

Not really because some infrastructure is passed for 125mph simply because of tilt while non tilt is restricted to 110mph so even if a Class 800 type was faster off the blocks then a Class 390, the inability to make full use of the line speed differentials would make all the difference.
 

hwl

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Surely the fact that an 802 derivative would out accelerate a pendolino on electric negates the need for tilt? 802 on electric beats a pendolino hands down.
It very much depends what services you want to run the stock on. If there are some routes* with minimal distances with running above 110/115mph then non tilt is a strong option.

* e.g. Birmingham - Glasgow using Voyagers.
 

hwl

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Would the current main fleet need to be replaced before 2026 (or whenever HS2 is operational)? Provided the 390s can be maintained well enough for full service over the next 6 years, there is only a need to supplement them with a few sets of other 125mph trains, (the voyagers would seem to be prime candidates for replacement with some kind of bi-mode).
After HS2 is operational, an orderly programme of 390 replacement would be appropriate, by which time there will be a reasonable choice of high capacity high speed EMUs available.
Voyagers are going according to the announcement, with some bimode and some electric only replacement as well as additional electric stock for new services.
 

hibtastic

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I believe it’s 13 x Bi Mode sets and 10 x electric sets to come. They have 20 x 221s currently but a few of those run doubled up which wouldn’t be necessary with newer longer sets (unless they go for 5 cars like everyone seems to be).
 

thenorthern

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I'm curious about that. For how long do the Super Voyagers employ tilt on their current diagrams?

Quite a bit as they are used on some of the Scottish services and there is some TASS locations between London Euston and Rugby I think.
 

nlogax

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Mostly Glasgow-ish. Mostly.
Quite a bit as they are used on some of the Scottish services and there is some TASS locations between London Euston and Rugby I think.

Assuming you meant geographically, along the full length of the WCML?

Regarding tilt & 125mph, doesn't HS2 include some linespeed enhancements between Crewe and Scotland for trains without tilt capability? The 221 tilt is only a partial system anyway, the linespeeds are generally lower than the full EPS that 390s enjoy so the impact of non-tilt stock may less than some people think.

Thanks both. Hence my curiosity - could standard bi-modes partially compensate for a lack of tilt by their improved acceleration under the wires?
 

AM9

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Voyagers are going according to the announcement, with some bimode and some electric only replacement as well as additional electric stock for new services.
My point was, I don't think there's any need to pursue tilting train operation on the WCML beyong the eventual withdrawl of the 390s, - once HS2 is operational. The route is generally fast enough for conventional trains to operate the intermediate and regional trains that will be plying the route then.
 

dk1

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Thanks both. Hence my curiosity - could standard bi-modes partially compensate for a lack of tilt by their improved acceleration under the wires?
Not really as they would be restricted to 110mph in the same way as 350s or their proposed replacement & possible use of 90/91s on mk4 stock. It eats into available paths.
 

hwl

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My point was, I don't think there's any need to pursue tilting train operation on the WCML beyong the eventual withdrawl of the 390s, - once HS2 is operational. The route is generally fast enough for conventional trains to operate the intermediate and regional trains that will be plying the route then.
Largely agreed - the newish Bombardier "tilt lite" solution* might offer an interesting compromise vs the current Pendolino / Super Voyager one. (slightly less max tilt, far simpler and far lighter)

*As used on Bombardier /Hitachi Italian HS trains that forms the basis for the B/H HS2 stock bid.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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I'm curious about that. For how long do the Super Voyagers employ tilt on their current diagrams?

Almost continuously between Euston and Crewe (all the way if they are on Scotland runs).
There are a few locations where they are limited to 5/10mph below 390s on the sharpest curves, but the difference in running time is fractional.
Apart from the main WCML, there is tilt on about half the Birmingham loop (not Birmingham-Wolves) and on most of Colwich-Cheadle Hulme.
The WCML has no tilt north/east of Carstairs (bar a short bit near Motherwell), nor between south of Warrington and north of Wigan.

I'm not sure an 802 will beat a 390 "hands down" (and anyway, where has that been demonstrated?).
Pendolinos are powerful beasts, and much depends on the power supply constraints.
Voyagers are not far behind in acceleration terms.
 
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EE Andy b1

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I think it will be Class 802 Bi-modes and a version of the Class 397 EMU. But hope not.

When the order of Classic compatible HS2 trains come online from 2024/25 on some classic Northern routes before full use of HS2 from 2026, i think South of Litchfield will probably then become a 110 mph railway again with extra paths.
 

Mogz

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Some requests from a constantly frustrated commuter and weekend family leisure traveller who has seen what continental Europe has and wants the same here....

- Decent mix of table and airline seating.

- Small number of compartments for families (standard) and business (first) travellers. Would stop the kids bothering other passengers while giving them more room to play on a long journey and allow business people to make calls and work without having the same effect.

- Buffet car with small cafe/restaurant serving decent hot meals at reasonable prices (not GWR-style Pullman dining served in First Class style seats).

- Half a coach “open” dedicated to luggage and cycles.

Is this too much to ask in the UK?
 

LNW-GW Joint

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- Half a coach “open” dedicated to luggage and cycles.

I was on a DB IC service recently which had 2 such half-coach areas for cycles.
There were, I think, 30 cycle places altogether (2x15), and 20 of them were in use - puts our feeble provision to shame.
The train was an old-fashioned loco-hauled service of 11 coaches with restaurant car, running the length of Germany (Passau-Hamburg via Koblenz).
Of course this train is due to be replaced by DB's new IC4 trains, where the accommodation might be rather different.
 

pt_mad

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There has been a fair amount of suggestion within the other thread about the bi-mode will probably be 5 car due to running in North Wales.

Could an auto SDO system not be used to de-select the doors on say a 9 car train on North Wales Routes?

Also, with only 13 bi-mode, if they were 5 car, well you'd need 6 sets just to operate the existing 1710, 1810 and 1910 off Euston respectively before adding in any southbound off peak North Wales to Euston service in the afternoon and the ex Chesters.

It wouldn't really be viable to run single 5 car bi-mode out of Euston either. With things set to become busier before 2026 not quieter, is there really likely to be any 5 car West Coast Franchise services running out of Euston at all (once the new trains are delivered). I would doubt it.
 

pt_mad

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I hope there's some way they can take the bicycle space away from behind the driver on the 390 so that you don't need staff to let you on and off with a key.
 

mmh

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Could an auto SDO system not be used to de-select the doors on say a 9 car train on North Wales Routes?

Only Flint (and Deganwy, if that actually happens) would need to use SDO. Short sets and doubling at Chester / Crewe is relatively new.

Chester terminators are probably more of an issue - the bay platforms are short there.

As far as I recall terminating a double unit formation at Bangor is an issue because of something to do with changing ends outside the train when reversing (in the tunnel?) - but only one service does that and hopefully it would become a through to Holyhead service.
 

pt_mad

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Only Flint (and Deganwy, if that actually happens) would need to use SDO. Short sets and doubling at Chester / Crewe is relatively new.

Chester terminators are probably more of an issue - the bay platforms are short there.

As far as I recall terminating a double unit formation at Bangor is an issue because of something to do with changing ends outside the train when reversing (in the tunnel?) - but only one service does that and hopefully it would become a through to Holyhead service.
Hmm does make me wonder could it be the bi-modes will be full length and extend beyond Chester to say Llandudno, so that the platform can accommodate a full length train terminating? They've said Llandudno will be better service havn't they?

Also what was the arrangement when 9 car Pendolinos used to be dragged to Holyhead by 57s? Suggests full length trains probably wouldn't be a problem through North Wales.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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There has been a fair amount of suggestion within the other thread about the bi-mode will probably be 5 car due to running in North Wales.
Could an auto SDO system not be used to de-select the doors on say a 9 car train on North Wales Routes?
Also, with only 13 bi-mode, if they were 5 car, well you'd need 6 sets just to operate the existing 1710, 1810 and 1910 off Euston respectively before adding in any southbound off peak North Wales to Euston service in the afternoon and the ex Chesters.
It wouldn't really be viable to run single 5 car bi-mode out of Euston either. With things set to become busier before 2026 not quieter, is there really likely to be any 5 car West Coast Franchise services running out of Euston at all (once the new trains are delivered). I would doubt it.

Full-length (9-10 car) trains can operate in North Wales (there is one double Voyager today, and 9-car Pendolinos used to run with locos).
But long trains don't work generally in North Wales, 5-car and doubling up at Chester works fine, just like GWR's Cotswold route and Oxford.
13x5-car would replace the current 10 units, and allow 3 extra for more workings west of Chester (inc Llandudno) which is badly needed.
Another use of the new EMUs, if they are say 7-car, is that they can work at places with short platforms like Liverpool South Parkway and the Fylde stations that 390s have to miss (Kirkham, Poulton).
Car lengths might be greater (26m rather than 23m).
 
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6Gman

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Some requests from a constantly frustrated commuter and weekend family leisure traveller who has seen what continental Europe has and wants the same here....

- Decent mix of table and airline seating.

- Small number of compartments for families (standard) and business (first) travellers. Would stop the kids bothering other passengers while giving them more room to play on a long journey and allow business people to make calls and work without having the same effect.

- Buffet car with small cafe/restaurant serving decent hot meals at reasonable prices (not GWR-style Pullman dining served in First Class style seats).

- Half a coach “open” dedicated to luggage and cycles.

Is this too much to ask in the UK?

Would be very nice, but ...

1. Yes please, but "more seats" is the mantra.
2. Won't happen, same reason plus - potentially - security.
3. Won't happen - space and cost. Talk is that some/many/all may actually lose the buffet/shop for a trolley!
4. Won't happen (see earlier comments). Plus will people willingly leave luggage away from their seats?
 

mmh

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Hmm does make me wonder could it be the bi-modes will be full length and extend beyond Chester to say Llandudno, so that the platform can accommodate a full length train terminating? They've said Llandudno will be better service havn't they?

Also what was the arrangement when 9 car Pendolinos used to be dragged to Holyhead by 57s? Suggests full length trains probably wouldn't be a problem through North Wales.

They fit at all the stations bar Flint, which only gained Virgin services when the route went over to Voyagers. Some of the stations have very long platforms - Rhyl and Bangor particularly. Prior to Voyagers / Pendolinos the service was mk3s and a DVT hauled by a loco, so probably longer than a hauled Oendo (or when the line had HSTs)

In those days Chester didn't have its own service, only the through trains. There was a loco change from electric to diesel at Crewe.
On one infamous occasion, the electric (a class 90) was accidentally left on at Crewe and dragged with it as well. It was terminated and the loco dumped at Llandudno Junction - it wasn't cleared for the line (unsurprisingly!) but caused no problems with the length of the train.
 

6Gman

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Hmm does make me wonder could it be the bi-modes will be full length and extend beyond Chester to say Llandudno, so that the platform can accommodate a full length train terminating? They've said Llandudno will be better service havn't they?

Also what was the arrangement when 9 car Pendolinos used to be dragged to Holyhead by 57s? Suggests full length trains probably wouldn't be a problem through North Wales.

Trailing long trains between Chester and Llandudno on a frequent basis would be a huge waste. Llandudno really is a bit of a byway these days. (Last time I went there on a Voyager we were barely in double figures - definitely no m ore than 20 - by the time we got there.)
 

mmh

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Trailing long trains between Chester and Llandudno on a frequent basis would be a huge waste. Llandudno really is a bit of a byway these days. (Last time I went there on a Voyager we were barely in double figures - definitely no m ore than 20 - by the time we got there.)

I think the idea of a Saturday Llandudno (and Deganwy!) service is probably doomed and if it happens won't last for much the same reason the last Llandudno service failed. If a once a day service wasn't enough to change the status quo that you just drive or get a taxi to Junction for "the London train", I can't see a once a week train doing much.

I'd doubt there are enough Saturday to Saturday holidays to either Llandudno or London these days for it to be popular that way.

For much of it's time the Llandudno to London Voyager followed a loco-hauled set from Holyhead about 30 mins later. The Holyhead was limited stop - Bangor, Junction, Chester, Crewe. It was a strange timetable!
 

LNW-GW Joint

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I think the idea of a Saturday Llandudno (and Deganwy!) service is probably doomed and if it happens won't last for much the same reason the last Llandudno service failed. If a once a day service wasn't enough to change the status quo that you just drive or get a taxi to Junction for "the London train", I can't see a once a week train doing much.
I'd doubt there are enough Saturday to Saturday holidays to either Llandudno or London these days for it to be popular that way.
For much of it's time the Llandudno to London Voyager followed a loco-hauled set from Holyhead about 30 mins later. The Holyhead was limited stop - Bangor, Junction, Chester, Crewe. It was a strange timetable!

The Llandudno service says Summer, not just Summer Saturdays, suggesting it will be daily.
There seem to be more trains running west of Chester, so they must terminate somewhere.
More trains earlier and later at Chester too - they shut own early at the moment, with a very late start on Sundays.
I'd also like a change in the policy of always terminating these trains at Crewe whenever there is any engineering work south of there.
 
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