NewSt
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At least one set, possibly two, are out currently for those modifications.
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New trains for East Midlands Franchise
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At least one set, possibly two, are out currently for those modifications.
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dk1
Veteran Member
Haven't Wabtec Doncaster been haemorrhaging staff to Hitachi?
Have been reading pages gone by.
Would like to point out Abellio have said they will end up with just three types of stock.
Based on what they've actually said, this means EMR will end up with:
804 (?) - Intercity
360 - Corby
170 (highly suspected) - Regional
All this is supposed to happen by 2022/2023.
There is no case for keeping the 180s long term.
Would like to point out Abellio have said they will end up with just three types of stock.
Based on what they've actually said, this means EMR will end up with:
804 (?) - Intercity
360 - Corby
170 (highly suspected) - Regional
All this is supposed to happen by 2022/2023.
There is no case for keeping the 180s long term.
There are low rumbling plans to remodel the station concourse so instead of pointing towards London Road, it'll point towards Station Street instead.
Would be good to get rid of that old large block of flats and really open the area out like they did with Coventry, or perhaps more like Jubilee Square.
There's also suggestion of a new platform past P4 to serve the Ivanhoe line and/or potentially XC services, which would use a new flyover/dive under at Wigston Junction.
Whatever happens, there will be millions of pounds invested at this station.
londonmidland
Established Member
Interesting. That proposal of it pointing towards Station Street seems similar to how Nottingham station entrance is laid out. Will certainly be a lot better than how it is currently, where you come straight out onto a busy and congested London Road, having to immediately turn left or right amongst the crowds of people on a narrow path.
I think an extra platform would come in handy, especially in times of disruption. Hopefully the Ivanhoe/XC services can run on independent lines all the way from Wigston Jn to Syston Jn, reducing conflict with mainline services.
WesternLancer
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Interesting, can EMR resource their whole regional fleet requirements with 170s? Are there enough of them available / due to become available? I suppose if XC stopped using them on Nottm - Cardiff and Stansted - Brum more would be free for EMR to use.
With NT using 170s too, one would have thought NT would logically take as many 170s as they could to generate more fleet consistency for Northern, but this may not be their intention - obv of tangential relevance to what EMR do with their regional fleet.
MML-Commuter
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On my travels this week I was on a 222 rebranded
and safety poster
and safety poster
krus_aragon
Established Member
A swap with XC of 27 Class 222s for 29 Class 170s could go some way toward that, and give a capacity increase for XC too. Add on the 23 that are being displaced from the West Midlands, and that might do it, numbers-wise.
hooverboy
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the 170's planned for EMR are for regional routes,to replace 15x
XC won't want rid of their 22x's,at least not for 170's, they are in a similar position to EMR in terms for long distance stock.They've got a few HST's to retire as well.
They would probably take the extra EMR 222's just like that,it would give them a uniform fleet which keeps the costs down for training and maintainance
I could perhaps see it that way around. EMR 222's swapped for XC 170's if the price is right and it earns EMR enough to put a 20+ follow on bimode order in.
Thunderer
Member
The latest edition of RAIL magazine strongly suggests that the MML will receive new Hitachi bi-modes class 80x - I'm not sure how accurate this news is though?
krus_aragon
Established Member
I think you misunderstood: I was suggesting that XC would acquire 222s from EMR, and may part with some 170s in return.
Thunderer
Member
Why, thank you for the confirmationPretty accurate as per earlier discussion in this very thread! Bottom of page 41 onwards!!
Let's hope they go for mainly 9 cars for the long distance Inter-City services to Sheffield/Leeds/Nottingham eh? 
I got a gut feeling that Hitachi will supply the same AT300's to Cross-Country too when that franchise eventually comes up for renewal? It would make perfect sense as Craigentinny and Laira will be fully geared up by then to service them and for me, Hitachi have not invested all of this money in the UK factory to pack up production after the current crop of IEP, AT200 and AT300's are finished..just a thought 
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Why, thank you for the confirmation
All 5x24m, I'd suggest reading some pages back on the thread, there is plenty of detail.
Thunderer
Member
Will do..thanks. Oh great, just what we all need, more bloody 5 coach trains for long distance services
I can't see any obvious issues there then? (sarcasm) 
Well moaned about by all on those earlier pagesOh great, just what we all need, more bloody 5 coach trains for long distance services
edwin_m
Veteran Member
The 222s might be acceptable for Nottingham-Birmingham/Cardiff but wouldn't be very comfortable on legs such as Birmingham-Tamworth where the 170s are usually full and standing. However they have much higher running costs and you'd need a longer formation for the same number of seats. Ideally this route needs a crowd-buster shuttle out to Tamworth or Burton, but that won't happen without the Bordesley Curves which are many years away. On Birmingham-Stansted there are differential speeds which the 222s can't use, so they couldn't keep to schedule. So XC will need a fair number of 170s into the foreseeable future.
In a few years time there needs to be a re-think of XC, probably increasing the fleet either by taking the 222s and staying all-diesel or taking some bi-modes to run on the service with the highest proportion of electrification and concentrating the 220s/221s on the others. This might include replacement of the 170s, though it's a bit difficult to see what with.
cnjb8
Established Member
Yes but theres also still the possibility of more off lease ScotRail 170s and Southern 171s as discussed previously.
WesternLancer
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Thanks - but surely 29 class 170 units is some way short of the number of DMUs of 153, 156, and 158 listed on this page, currently required to operate EMTs regional services?
https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/east-midlands-railway-livery-and-station-branding.187931/
Even if you discount the number of 158s that would be released by the Nottm - Liverpool service being another TOCs responsibility before long and thus can be removed from the total requirement.
Although certainly a step in the right direction.
cnjb8
Established Member
krus_aragon
Established Member
29 certainly wouldn't be enough. 29 plus 23 (from the West Midlands) might.
As stated, there are other possible sources for 170s, too.
krus_aragon
Established Member
And from the XC side of things, while exchanging all their 170s for EMT's 222s wouldn't give them much of a capacity upgrade, this morning's announcement of total Voyager replacement in the West Coast franchise means XC could acquire those as well (ending up with a larger, purely 22x fleet).
It's an excellent question. Here's where we are:
Current (various) TOC plans mean at present, there aren't enough 170s available / will be available soon.
I haven't seen any confirmation the "new" trains will be 170s, but it seems likely as there aren't any other units in a good number that would provide an upgrade to the 15x class (not enough 175s, 180s, 185s to fulfil the single stock type requirement for EMR Regional trains).
Abellio have said they will end up with just 3 types of stock, but I can't find any documents to link to this.
They would have had some sort of half baked plan on how this would happen before announcing this.
HERE is a potential plan to enable enough 170s for East Mids, but requires a lot of swapping about. However, all between Abellio companies so may be easier to accomplish and enable better fleet harmonisation.
Seen some people suggesting Southern will surrender their 171s.
But I haven't seen anything suggesting what Southern will get to replace them, whether they can logistically send their 171s to the Midlands, nor that Southern are looking to get rid of them. Red herring?
VOYAGERS CANNOT RUN TO STANSTED so XC cannot give their 170s up.
krus_aragon
Established Member
That's a detail I keep forgetting.
I presume it's significantly more serious than a "they haven't been cleared for that route yet" issue?
The same applies to Reading iirc if Voyagers end up doubling up on the Bournemouth route. Man Picc will also end up losing the ability to double up units terminating in some bay platforms. Isn't the reality that an upgraded XC franchise will by necessity require some station re-engineering/thinking? (Perhaps a new thread on the subject of Class 22x future use is needed)
Returning to the topic at hand, if EMR are to swap 170s for Sprinters to Scotrail, how does that tally with the commitments of that franchise? It is the plan compatible? Is it possible Northern would have to engage in similar swapping?
Fincra5
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I'm sure its a rumour. Not sure what SN will have to replace the 171s - which are intesnively used. Maybe the next franchise will show us.
TheBigD
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The platform at Stansted was extended back in 2014. There's a weekly 4 car 170 working to/from Stansted Airport. 4 car voyagers will fit, they just aren't cleared ta the moment.
Why you'd want to replace the 170s with a fuel hungry 125mph train that can't do SP speeds and has less seats than a 3 car 170 I don't know.
WesternLancer
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Thanks - informative reply. When i read that i wondered if 'types' wasn't the same as 'classes' - but from their perspective 3 different classes tends to make sense if they can achieve it.
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