Class 800 upgrades to address performance and reliability issues

father_jack · 12 Aug 2019

Pete_uk said:
What's with all the cancelled Cheltenham services this morning (12th August)?

There were some cancellations the day before too.

Yesterday was the usual Sunday lack of volunteers, which lately has been worse for drivers at the Paddington end.

Today is the system seems to be in a mess as a result of the Boardmasters festival return services being cancelled. The planned cancellations are being manually reinstated. Some Cheltenhams were running as a shuttle of sorts between Swindon and Cheltenham.

RailUK Forums

northernbelle · 12 Aug 2019

fgwrich said:
That doesn’t surprise me in the slightest. One unit I was on last week had half the carpet in the vestibule missing, while another had it’s taped down with the black and yellow tape. Another I had had the stickers in the toilets quite literally crumbling off. While a guard I know rather well has had the CDL panels fall off in his hands (he showed me one in the Set we were travelling in holding on with limited screws). We really do seem to be reaching Bombardier levels of quality control here. But I suppose it’s all part of the “Experience” on GWR these days. Not that the HSTs were perfect, thanks in part to First’s maintenance regime.

Has anyone else noticed the little nips and chips in the panelling already?

I still fail to see how Hitachi's build quality is GWR's fault? But then, you can't bear to miss a chance to berate GWR these days can you?

I'll say it again - it is up to Hitachi to provide the train that is suitably cleaned and maintained - i.e. NOT suffering from the issues you describe above. It is up to GWR to lean on Hitachi to sort it out - and I'm pretty convinced it is doing everything it can without refusing the trains and bringing the train service to its knees. But people seem to think that these things can be solved straight away and they can't.

As for HST maintenance - that's a little unfair. The GWR HST fleet had/has had a very different life to the likes of LNER - far more intensively used, far more stop/start work which takes a higher toll, not to mention sometimes temperamental systems such as ATP and a more capable SDO system. For what it's worth, I always thought Laira did a sterling job given they were turning out ageing rolling stock with a very hard life. Given the 802s are now achieving reliability not matched by any TOC's HST fleet, things seem to be creeping forward.

Mag_seven · 13 Aug 2019

Is 800002 now in service - "early July" was the last I heard in the now closed GWR class 800 thread.

TractiveEffort · 14 Aug 2019

Mag_seven said:
Is 800002 now in service - "early July" was the last I heard in the now closed GWR class 800 thread.

Not yet, but it’s imminent.

Mikey C · 14 Aug 2019

All the 80* I saw yesterday (between London and Reading) seemed to be using electric power

Surprised that GWR are still using paper seat reservation slips though

Mintona · 14 Aug 2019

Mikey C said:
All the 80* I saw yesterday (between London and Reading) seemed to be using electric power

Surprised that GWR are still using paper seat reservation slips though

There was one unit listen on the diesel only list yesterday, which is actually rather rare these days. Hitachi have been turning out a full complement of electric-capable trains for a few weeks now. I’m sure it’s probably December timetable related.

The problem with the electronic seat reservations is that they will only load up 10-15 minutes before departure when the driver or TM insert the head code to the TMS. So if they fail at this point it’s too late to get them printed and put out. Therefore the staff at Paddington tend to still place the paper ones out, which normally now are duplicated by working electronic ones.

Mikey C · 14 Aug 2019

Mintona said:
There was one unit listen on the diesel only list yesterday, which is actually rather rare these days. Hitachi have been turning out a full complement of electric-capable trains for a few weeks now. I’m sure it’s probably December timetable related.

The problem with the electronic seat reservations is that they will only load up 10-15 minutes before departure when the driver or TM insert the head code to the TMS. So if they fail at this point it’s too late to get them printed and put out. Therefore the staff at Paddington tend to still place the paper ones out, which normally now are duplicated by working electronic ones.

The electronic seat displays weren't working on the service I was on yesterday (11:45 to Swansea service)

Mikey C · 15 Aug 2019

Mikey C said:
The electronic seat displays weren't working on the service I was on yesterday (11:45 to Swansea service)

But were fine on the 2 units I was on today, one a 5 car 802, one a 2*5 car 800

Mrs. Fortescue · 16 Aug 2019

5 cars instead of 10 on 1L34 0729 Swansea to London Paddington this morning, leading to absolute chaos at Bridgend.

When these sets are run shortformed, it’s chaos at commuter times as 3 cars of standard is nowhere near enough.

Thunderer · 16 Aug 2019

Mrs. Fortescue said:
5 cars instead of 10 on 1L34 0729 Swansea to London Paddington this morning, leading to absolute chaos at Bridgend.

When these sets are run shortformed, it’s chaos at commuter times as 3 cars of standard is nowhere near enough.

The blame lies 100% with the department for transport. It was absolutely stupid replacing a mainly 8 coach HST fleet with so many 5 car IET's. The fleet should have been mainly 9 cars and I firmly stand by that statement. We were told on here that when the fleet was fully delivered this would practically stop happening and here we are, fleet fully delivered and 5 car trains being sent out on peak Swansea-London services. For what good it will do, you can always send a letter of complaint to the Department for Transport or to Mark Hopwood, the Managing Director of GWR. I vote with my feet now and I try to avoid the GWR services on the South Wales main line. Its prefrable riding in a class 175 to an IET. The IEP project has been very, very disappointing.

JN114 · 16 Aug 2019

Thunderer said:
The blame lies 100% with the department for transport. It was absolutely stupid replacing a mainly 8 coach HST fleet with so many 5 car IET's. The fleet should have been mainly 9 cars and I firmly stand by that statement. We were told on here that when the fleet was fully delivered this would practically stop happening and here we are, fleet fully delivered and 5 car trains being sent out on peak Swansea-London services. For what good it will do, you can always send a letter of complaint to the Department for Transport or to Mark Hopwood, the Managing Director of GWR. I vote with my feet now and I try to avoid the GWR services on the South Wales main line. Its prefrable riding in a class 175 to an IET. The IEP project has been very, very disappointing.

Votes with feet because not enough 9 car trains are run by swapping a 5 car train for a 2 car; because logic is fun.

richa2002 · 16 Aug 2019

The substitution of a 5 car on a booked 10 car from Cornwall this year was enough for me to vow not to use GWR again until this farce is sorted. Another loss for Cornish tourism.

Thunderer · 16 Aug 2019

JN114 said:
Votes with feet because not enough 9 car trains are run by swapping a 5 car train for a 2 car; because logic is fun.

What would you prefer, a 45 min journey (Swansea-Newport) sitting on rock hard seats (thats if you can get one) and packed into the 3 and a bit standard coaches of a 5 car "Cucumber" on a LONDON bound service (Always busier in the morning), or a 3 coach (yes they are not all 2 coach as suggested) 175 on a Manchester service, with seats available and more comfortable ones as well? There is your Logic...the 175 for me every time. If I have to go to London, its National Express or my car, as I'm not sitting on those awful train seats for 3 hours..like I said, vote with your feet.

CharlesR · 16 Aug 2019

richa2002 said:
The substitution of a 5 car on a booked 10 car from Cornwall this year was enough for me to vow not to use GWR again until this farce is sorted. Another loss for Cornish tourism.

As far as I am aware the short forms are actually happening more on Cardiff and Bristol services than WoE services. Yes, it is unacceptable however the amount of short formations on WoE services are hardly a dent to tourism.

Mrs. Fortescue · 16 Aug 2019

JN114 said:
Votes with feet because not enough 9 car trains are run by swapping a 5 car train for a 2 car; because logic is fun.

Actually, the peak time usual 175 is normally a three car, not that much more than a standard section of a 5 car IET.

Thunderer · 16 Aug 2019

Mrs. Fortescue said:
Actually, the peak time usual 175 is normally a three car, not that much more than a standard section of a 5 car IET.

100% correct.

northernbelle · 16 Aug 2019

Thunderer said:
100% correct.

It's far from 100% correct.

A 3-car Class 175 has 206 seats including tip-ups, a 5-car IET has 290 standard seats - the equivalent of about 4 Cl175 vehicles.

Mrs. Fortescue · 16 Aug 2019

northernbelle said:
It's far from 100% correct.

A 3-car Class 175 has 206 seats including tip-ups, a 5-car IET has 290 standard seats - the equivalent of about 4 Cl175 vehicles.

Which is why I said “not that much more”.

Which would mean that my post IS correct.

Always find it’s best to read posts properly before replying.

northernbelle · 16 Aug 2019

Mrs. Fortescue said:
Which is why I said “not that much more”.

Which would mean that my post IS correct.

Always find it’s best to read posts properly before replying.

I did read it properly, I just think you are wrong. If you think a 5-car IET having a third more capacity than a 175 isn't much more, then I'm glad you're not working out how trains should be formed.

Anyway - the majority of the time we're talking about a 9 or 10 car IET instead of a 3 car 175.

As JN114 says - logic!

irish_rail · 16 Aug 2019

1833 pad to ply caped today due to unit failure, 1903 was predictably "cosy" to put it mildly.
1833 could of run, had there been an agreement to allow 800s to overnight at laira, but due to the ridiculous contract in place, as no 802 available this very very busy service had to be cancelled.

jimm · 16 Aug 2019

Thunderer said:
here we are, fleet fully delivered .

800001 and 800002 have still not gone into passenger service.

Jozhua · 17 Aug 2019

Just wondering, could it be that a bi-mode multiple unit with no power cars (meaning that all the traction equipment has to be stowed beneath the carriages) that is also capable of 125mph and good acceleration on diesel is just a bit difficult to achieve? Then you add in the restrictive UK loading gauges and a slightly incompetent DFT and you're left with a train that two years after introduction, is still suffering from issues...

How do the sets compare in regards to reliability to other brand new trains and are the 801's doing better?

FGW_DID · 17 Aug 2019

richa2002 said:
The substitution of a 5 car on a booked 10 car from Cornwall this year was enough for me to vow not to use GWR again until this farce is sorted. Another loss for Cornish tourism.

The 5 car would have been working it’s booked diagram, seeing as a 10 car is comprised of 2x 5 cars (two diagrams) it’s just that the other diagram would have been uncovered due to unavailability. That 5 car was always going to be on that working regardless.

Some people still can’t get their heads around that if it were fixed rakes of 9 or 10 vehicles then it would be a full cancellation not just a shortformed service! Ideal it is not but surely you would rather get on a 5 car and be on your way than have your train cancelled and a full trainload of passengers have to wait for the next train and cram on with that full trainload!

If Hitachi can successfully send out the required & correct formations every day then obviously this situation would cease (obviously there would be the odd one due to train faults etc)

irish_rail · 17 Aug 2019

FGW_DID said:
The 5 car would have been working it’s booked diagram, seeing as a 10 car is comprised of 2x 5 cars (two diagrams) it’s just that the other diagram would have been uncovered due to unavailability. That 5 car was always going to be on that working regardless.

Some people still can’t get their heads around that if it were fixed rakes of 9 or 10 vehicles then it would be a full cancellation not just a shortformed service! Ideal it is not but surely you would rather get on a 5 car and be on your way than have your train cancelled and a full trainload of passengers have to wait for the next train and cram on with that full trainload!

If Hitachi can successfully send out the required & correct formations every day then obviously this situation would cease (obviously there would be the odd one due to train faults etc)

No, if it was a fleet of 9 cars and there was a shortfall one of the 4 bristol trains per hour would be sacrificed to allow a full service on the wofe line. A far more acceptable compromise than the one we currently face with fairly frequent short forming which looks set to get much much worse come December. One rep I have spoken to says December, GWR will become the next "northern" rail, a crisis really is in the offing. 17 couplings and uncouplings a day at Plymouth station, let's just say we are going to have our work cut out.

jimm · 17 Aug 2019

Jozhua said:
Just wondering, could it be that a bi-mode multiple unit with no power cars (meaning that all the traction equipment has to be stowed beneath the carriages) that is also capable of 125mph and good acceleration on diesel is just a bit difficult to achieve? Then you add in the restrictive UK loading gauges and a slightly incompetent DFT and you're left with a train that two years after introduction, is still suffering from issues...

How do the sets compare in regards to reliability to other brand new trains and are the 801's doing better?

The HST was still suffering from issues a lot longer than two years after introduction, to the extent that around 1980, BR asked Mirlees Blackstone to develop a rail-friendly version of the MB190 diesel engine, with a view to replacing the Paxman Valenta, which was suffering persistent faults. This eventually resulted in four power cars being fitted with the MB190.

FGW_DID said:
The 5 car would have been working it’s booked diagram, seeing as a 10 car is comprised of 2x 5 cars (two diagrams) it’s just that the other diagram would have been uncovered due to unavailability. That 5 car was always going to be on that working regardless.

Some people still can’t get their heads around that if it were fixed rakes of 9 or 10 vehicles then it would be a full cancellation not just a shortformed service! Ideal it is not but surely you would rather get on a 5 car and be on your way than have your train cancelled and a full trainload of passengers have to wait for the next train and cram on with that full trainload!

If Hitachi can successfully send out the required & correct formations every day then obviously this situation would cease (obviously there would be the odd one due to train faults etc)

Also important to remember that many people in the West of England and South Wales still seem not to realise that their HST turning up as booked was, on occasion, a direct result of other services, notably in the Thames Valley/Oxford/Cotswold Line corridor getting short formed so that an HST could be made available to appear at Bristol, Swansea or Penzance - with a random selection of a 180, a three-car Turbo or even a two-car Turbo replacing the HST on its original booked duty.

On at least one occasion, Old Oak Common even turned out a Hull Trains Class 180 to cover the 17.50 from Paddington to Worcester, so the diagrammed HST could replaced a faulty HST on another route.

Rob F · 17 Aug 2019

northernbelle said:
I did read it properly, I just think you are wrong. If you think a 5-car IET having a third more capacity than a 175 isn't much more, then I'm glad you're not working out how trains should be formed.

Anyway - the majority of the time we're talking about a 9 or 10 car IET instead of a 3 car 175.

As JN114 says - logic!

You are completely missing the point. The absolute number of seats is immaterial.The 175 is on a Manchester service, for which I assume there is considerably less demand than for the London train. Therefore Mr Thunderer stands a better chance of a seat and that seat is much more comfortable as well. Seems perfectly logical and quite sensible to me.

CharlesR · 17 Aug 2019

irish_rail said:
No, if it was a fleet of 9 cars and there was a shortfall one of the 4 bristol trains per hour would be sacrificed to allow a full service on the wofe line. A far more acceptable compromise than the one we currently face with fairly frequent short forming which looks set to get much much worse come December. One rep I have spoken to says December, GWR will become the next "northern" rail, a crisis really is in the offing. 17 couplings and uncouplings a day at Plymouth station, let's just say we are going to have our work cut out.

Bristol only has 2 trains per hour at the moment and they are crucial at peak times. Again, if you take a minute to look at Journey Check every morning WoE services are not getting the short straw. I would be surprised if GWR has a timetable crisis considering the fact that they have had an extra 12 months planning.

Mrs. Fortescue · 17 Aug 2019

northernbelle said:
I did read it properly, I just think you are wrong. If you think a 5-car IET having a third more capacity than a 175 isn't much more, then I'm glad you're not working out how trains should be formed.

Anyway - the majority of the time we're talking about a 9 or 10 car IET instead of a 3 car 175.

As JN114 says - logic!

Well I think you’re very wrong.

But we aren’t talking about 9/10 cars, we are talking about the exact situation I brought up. Which was a FIVE car formation.

Start with the facts, otherwise you’re going to be wrong immediately.

samuelmorris · 17 Aug 2019

Thunderer said:
What would you prefer, a 45 min journey (Swansea-Newport) sitting on rock hard seats (thats if you can get one) and packed into the 3 and a bit standard coaches of a 5 car "Cucumber" on a LONDON bound service (Always busier in the morning), or a 3 coach (yes they are not all 2 coach as suggested) 175 on a Manchester service, with seats available and more comfortable ones as well? There is your Logic...the 175 for me every time. If I have to go to London, its National Express or my car, as I'm not sitting on those awful train seats for 3 hours..like I said, vote with your feet.

If the train is over-capacity due to being short-formed, the hard seats aren't an issue as you'll be standing. If you're sat down, 5 cars was probably still enough. I'm no fan of how the short-forms etc. have worked out, but that is a bit of a double standard there.

irish_rail · 17 Aug 2019

CharlesR said:
Bristol only has 2 trains per hour at the moment and they are crucial at peak times. Again, if you take a minute to look at Journey Check every morning WoE services are not getting the short straw. I would be surprised if GWR has a timetable crisis considering the fact that they have had an extra 12 months planning.

I am referring to post December when bristol goes 4 trains per hour. Would of made a lot more sense to allow that to suffer a shortfall than expect people to cram onto a 5 car for journeys of over 3 hours.

Class 800 upgrades to address performance and reliability issues

Member

RailUK Forums

Member

Forum Staff

Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

On Moderation

Member

Established Member

Established Member

Member

Member

On Moderation

Member

Member

On Moderation

Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Member

Member

On Moderation

Established Member

Established Member