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TPE Mark 5A coaching stock progress

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Ben Bow

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Sets are going into storage because staff training is concentrating on the 802 and 397 fleet for now.

There will be Mk5A’s entering traffic soon but at a slower pace. Expect them to come into service at a faster rate after Christmas.

Between now and then it’ll be a maximum of 4 sets in use when they do start off.

Should be one set first for 4 weeks, then 2 sets for 10 weeks then 4 sets from December timetable change.

Have faith!

My faith and patience have evaporated against a litany of false dawns, missed deadlines and plans which seem to change weekly. When we get mk.5's into regular daily service, not ad hoc one off runs every now and again, then we will see how they stand up and perhaps my belief will be restored. I hope so, I really do.
 
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Bertie the bus

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I have annual leave w/c 09 Sep albeit not until the Wednesday - could be an opportunity to experience the "new car smell" on a Northern England train!
I would save your nostrils for a later date if I were you. I said that must be the current plan based on the dates BMI Flyer quoted. There must have been at least a dozen "current plans" up to now as far as the Mk5a's are concerned.
 

EE Andy b1

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My faith and patience have evaporated against a litany of false dawns, missed deadlines and plans which seem to change weekly. When we get mk.5's into regular daily service, not ad hoc one off runs every now and again, then we will see how they stand up and perhaps my belief will be restored. I hope so, I really do.


Mine too.

I just think that TPE management think that they have weathered the storm, got through most of the summer without much criticism (media wise that is), kept an inadequate service running, and so can now concentrate more on there Big Nova One rollout.

The fact that the idea behind the Mk5a sets was to give a quicker capacity increase across the Pennines seems to have been forgotten/lost.

I suppose the Class 802s will help somewhat, and has been said doubled up Class 185s on certain routes.
 

BeHereNow

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I would think the Nova1s are being prioritised to allow the ECML ORCATS raid.
 
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Bertie the bus

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I expect so. It’s quite naïve for people to think TPE would prioritise passenger needs over revenue.
 

BeHereNow

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Agreed, but I think the frustration is that TOC behaviour often bears no relation to passenger needs. Hence why the Williams Review is needed.
 

driver9000

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Could it be that the locos with the correct couplers were not available at the time.

The sets have standard buffers and draw hooks at the outer ends so any loco can haul them. Only the modified 68s can work the on board systems.
 

Allwinter_Kit

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Just a thought, and I assume the answer is "it'll be fine and it's all been thought through" but at Piccadilly if services are going to be 397s and 802s, or doubled up 185s, is there plentiful space? A lot of services tend to currently share with various Northern trains so I just wonder how the impact of longer trains will affect the utilisation of platforms in the main train shed.
 
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61653 HTAFC

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Just a thought, and I assume the answer is "it'll be fine and it's all been thought through" but at Piccadilly if services are going to be 397s and 802s, or doubled up 185s, is there plentiful space? A lot of services tend to currently share with various Northern trains so I just wonder how the impact of longer trains will affect the utilisation of platforms in the main train shed.
The services using the main shed are all planned to stay as 185s (this being the South TPE runs and the North route semi-fasts). With north route Airport services no longer using the main shed to reverse, there should be plenty of room. One issue might be if an 802/mk5a set heading for the airport is running late at Stalybridge so avoids Victoria and the Ordsall chord in favour of running via Ashburys and reversing in the main shed.
 

Ryry

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Any of these units going to make there way up to Middlesbrough and redcar or are they initially getting introduced to the Scarborough line
 

EE Andy b1

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Any of these units going to make there way up to Middlesbrough and redcar or are they initially getting introduced to the Scarborough line

They should be one day but it sounds like your at the back of the queue now! TPE can't get there act together so storing sets for now.
 

SP Man

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Could it be that the locos with the correct couplers were not available at the time.
Mk5a's dont need anything special they have buffers, shackle and pipes at each end. If brakes are commissioned anything can haul them, I am trying to prove it as I've hauled them with a 68, 66, 70, 47 and 86s just need thec08 and 90 to complete the set!
 

tpjm

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Well TPE have 3 or 4 sets handed over to them, so they must be fit for purpose, but i can't understand why TPE are not now using a couple of those sets on service/passenger trains while drivers are trained, this is common practice. There must be enough instructors and drivers trained up by now to run a limited Nova 3 service.

That is indeed the plan, but there's more to it than just Drivers! Just think... When do the Guards get trained? When do Alstom get trained for maintenance? What about the catering hosts? When does the new Scarborough depot get commissioned? When do CAF complete the required snags and modifications? The answer is that the 'incompetent' TPE management are completely the above items simultaneously to expedite getting the 'couple' of sets into regular service, but some things, like safety critical training, can not be rushed.

Maybe it's just incompetent TPE management making promises, that have helped make a mess of the whole debacle since refusing to use the Mk3 stock that was procured for the initial training use as well as much needed capacity.
Mine too.
I just think that TPE management think that they have weathered the storm, got through most of the summer without much criticism (media wise that is), kept an inadequate service running, and so can now concentrate more on there Big Nova One rollout.
The fact that the idea behind the Mk5a sets was to give a quicker capacity increase across the Pennines seems to have been forgotten/lost.
I expect so. It’s quite naïve for people to think TPE would prioritise passenger needs over revenue.
Agreed, but I think the frustration is that TOC behaviour often bears no relation to passenger needs. Hence why the Williams Review is needed.

Whilst I do appreciate the frustration you might feel towards the delay on this project, believe me when I say, as I have done several times in this thread before, TPE (and all the people that make it happen) are not sitting back.

There are people absolutely busting a gut, day in, day out, to bring these trains into traffic ASAP. There are so many complexities that those of you who have never worked within a 'new trains' project will be completely unaware of. So please, have a bit of respect for the people who are working to bring these trains into traffic, as there is not a single person within the organisation who is making decisions to intentionally delay the project.

TPE are not benefitting financially from the delay to these trains - if anything, they are losing money due to the lease costs for the Class 68s.

I find the delay as frustrating as the next person, but I won't stand back and have (external, uninformed) people speak negatively of colleagues and friends who are giving their all to mitigate the things that prevent these trains from entering traffic.
 

EE Andy b1

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That is indeed the plan, but there's more to it than just Drivers! Just think... When do the Guards get trained? When do Alstom get trained for maintenance? What about the catering hosts? When does the new Scarborough depot get commissioned? When do CAF complete the required snags and modifications? The answer is that the 'incompetent' TPE management are completely the above items simultaneously to expedite getting the 'couple' of sets into regular service, but some things, like safety critical training, can not be rushed.



Whilst I do appreciate the frustration you might feel towards the delay on this project, believe me when I say, as I have done several times in this thread before, TPE (and all the people that make it happen) are not sitting back.

There are people absolutely busting a gut, day in, day out, to bring these trains into traffic ASAP. There are so many complexities that those of you who have never worked within a 'new trains' project will be completely unaware of. So please, have a bit of respect for the people who are working to bring these trains into traffic, as there is not a single person within the organisation who is making decisions to intentionally delay the project.

TPE are not benefitting financially from the delay to these trains - if anything, they are losing money due to the lease costs for the Class 68s.

I find the delay as frustrating as the next person, but I won't stand back and have (external, uninformed) people speak negatively of colleagues and friends who are giving their all to mitigate the things that prevent these trains from entering traffic.

I'm in the industry and do have a good idea of what goes on with new and existing rolling stock.

I wasn't wrong about the Mk3 debacle though, was i?

Yes i should have said staff training, which is what i meant, drivers, guards on board staff.
There is no reason that fitters have not had training, had sets long enough now, had Class 68s long enough now.

Should the Scarborough depot not have been finished by now, 11 Mk5a sets have been built and delivered, four accepted, how long has this all been in the planning, when was it First retained the franchise?
As for snags and mods surely they were mainly done before handover from CAF, other faults and failures are bound to crop up as with any new rolling stock, when actually put into passenger service, as Northern are finding out now, as we did when our new trains arrived, updates are carried out as you go.

There should have been enough crews trained by now to run a 2 train service whilst others trained and some training done on service trains. If TPE have not got enough staff to be able to do all this, who is that down to? Management are supposed to know how much staff is required and how long training plans are going to be.
Ok problems with the CAF sets doesn't help but stop making false promises and false introductory dates.

I have no problem with the staff busting a gut to bring these trains into traffic, good on them, for trying as hard as they can but something is wrong somewhere as it's all taking way too long.
Management have obviously taken on too much with 3 new types and it's the passengers and staff probably who are suffering with daily cancellations, short forms, terminating trains part way to destination.

I for one being Pro-railway wanted this to work but we are a long way off yet it would seem.

Good luck to all the men & women in the frontline trying to make this possible, i think they need it.
 

sjpowermac

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Here’s a (potentially) interesting one for today.

5F31 08:44 Crewe CS-Liverpool Lime Street (09:44)
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/O31703/2019/08/15/advanced

5E31 09:56 Liverpool Lime Street-Scarborough (12:40)
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/O31706/2019/08/15/advanced

1E31 showing as being ‘cancelled throughout due to an unknown reason’ but 5E31 Running in the same path!

It could, of course, be a mistake but with 5F31 coming off Crewe CS I did wonder if this might be a Nova 3 run?

Screen grab below of relevant section from Real Time Trains.
CDCA2639-AAD3-45A3-821E-10724AE4D0FF.jpeg
 

sjpowermac

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Ben Bow

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Here’s a (potentially) interesting one for today.

5F31 08:44 Crewe CS-Liverpool Lime Street (09:44)
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/O31703/2019/08/15/advanced

5E31 09:56 Liverpool Lime Street-Scarborough (12:40)
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/O31706/2019/08/15/advanced

1E31 showing as being ‘cancelled throughout due to an unknown reason’ but 5E31 Running in the same path!

It could, of course, be a mistake but with 5F31 coming off Crewe CS I did wonder if this might be a Nova 3 run?

Screen grab below of relevant section from Real Time Trains.
View attachment 67246

Conductor training runs? Perhaps?
 

nedchester

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Here’s a (potentially) interesting one for today.

5F31 08:44 Crewe CS-Liverpool Lime Street (09:44)
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/O31703/2019/08/15/advanced

5E31 09:56 Liverpool Lime Street-Scarborough (12:40)
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/O31706/2019/08/15/advanced

1E31 showing as being ‘cancelled throughout due to an unknown reason’ but 5E31 Running in the same path!

It could, of course, be a mistake but with 5F31 coming off Crewe CS I did wonder if this might be a Nova 3 run?

Screen grab below of relevant section from Real Time Trains.
View attachment 67246

And the same train not cancelled on the TPE journeycheck.......
 

BMIFlyer

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The booked passenger service (1E31) and it’s return is certainly not cancelled on genius either although the crew booked to work it don’t sign Nova3 sets.

There is a training trip today however but that’s normally Crewe - Wavertree - Crewe x2 although this is always subject to change.
 

BMIFlyer

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I find the delay as frustrating as the next person, but I won't stand back and have (external, uninformed) people speak negatively of colleagues and friends who are giving their all to mitigate the things that prevent these trains from entering traffic.

Likewise from my point of view as well. People not in TPE can’t see what’s going on, but things ARE happening.

There is crew training ongoing for the loco hauled sets. As soon as enough staff are passed to safely work a train then they will start to enter service.

Not long to wait now for that either.

Believe me HQ and front line staff are working hard to get things into motion. As I’ve said before, the main focus currently is Nova 1 for the ECML extensions in December.

Nova 3 training currently underway, entering double figures shortly for competent train crew (guards and drivers) who sign those.

TPE fitters - done, depot staff - mostly done, on board hosts - some done (trainers).

Nova 2 training for WCML starting shortly as those 350’s need to be gone.

Crewe maintenance depot is a hive of activity at the moment due to the amount of people working to get these loco hauled trains ready for service. Stand on the platforms between Crewe and Liverpool to see evidence of that - crew training runs are ongoing.
 

37201xoIM

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I would think the Nova1s are being prioritised to allow the ECML ORCATS raid.
Correct.

And the 397s partly because the 350s are going, but also partly to enable the Liverpool - Glasgow ORCATS raid too. Also as reported elsewhere, TPE (and DfT / "Rail North Partnership") allowed one 350 to be returned a couple of weeks back, on the back of perpetuating the unworkable "8 from 9" diagramming of 350s, necessitating borrowing a 185 from the core network - including putting at risk the strengthening of a key PM-peak working out of Manchester. Bottom line before passengers.
 

sjpowermac

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5F31 to Liverpool shown as having departed.

And the same train not cancelled on the TPE journeycheck.......

Wavertree shown as cancelled.

The booked passenger service (1E31) and it’s return is certainly not cancelled on genius either although the crew booked to work it don’t sign Nova3 sets.

There is a training trip today however but that’s normally Crewe - Wavertree - Crewe x2 although this is always subject to change.
 
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