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Goods Loops v Passenger Loops

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Bovverboy

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Could someone possibly tell me what it is that distinguishes a Goods Loop from a Passenger Loop? I presume the effect is that a Goods Loop can only be used for goods trains, whereas a Passenger Loop can be used for either goods or passenger trains, but what is it that qualifies a loop to be designated a Passenger Loop?
 
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PeterC

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Knowing how historic labels persist on the railway I would guess that there isn't a consistent answer.
 

GB

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Basically passenger loops have better quality track, full signalling and locks on facing points. Passenger trains can use good loops with authorisation in some circumstances.
 

30907

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Historically, Goods lines and loops (often) had permissive working.
 

edwin_m

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Passenger loops generally don't have trap points and goods loops generally do. There are probably exceptions.
 

Tomnick

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Passenger loops generally don't have trap points and goods loops generally do. There are probably exceptions.
Where I’ve come across passenger loops provided with trap points, invariably the traps need to be reversed before a route can be set into the loop, being restored normal once the train’s at a stand.
 

Condor7

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Passenger trains can use good loops with authorisation in some circumstances.

How would a passenger train use it without authorisation, surely it would be down to the signal box to allow it to be used, as they would be the ones changing the points, or am I missing something?
 

bionic

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How would a passenger train use it without authorisation, surely it would be down to the signal box to allow it to be used, as they would be the ones changing the points, or am I missing something?

A passenger train driver can't just accept a signal into a goods loop, they would have to be verbally authorised by the signaller. However they can accept a route into a passenger loop without challenging it.
 

pompeyfan

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Possibly a silly question, but does an ECS class 5 count as freight in this instance?
 

800002

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How would a passenger train use it without authorisation, surely it would be down to the signal box to allow it to be used, as they would be the ones changing the points, or am I missing something?
If it's aplanned passenger useage, ie a Charter / Special train, then it would have been planned with a 'Goods Line Authority' a fully vetted by NR before being published. The service then gets a Special Traffic Notice detailing the route and timings, along with a GLA for each specific Goods Line. That's sent to the signal boxes direct from NR planning.

If it's not planned - what bionic said. :)
 
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How would a passenger train use it without authorisation, surely it would be down to the signal box to allow it to be used, as they would be the ones changing the points, or am I missing something?
The route must be set throughout and all points locked for the move . Usually found in the box special instructions . Any yard masters etc must be advised to stop all traffic movements as well in certain circumstances. And as stated the driver must be advised by the signaller .
 

LAX54

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As BIgman1234 says, route needs tobe set throughout, for a passenger, there are no overlaps on the signals, there is a possibility that the points are not locked by FPL's
Instructions will be in the Special Box Instructions, and if the move is not booked (Charters) then authorisation is normally needed tomake the move, the Driver also has to be advised.
I work Colchester, when a train has to traverse the Goods, the authority is given by the SSM, the driver will be stopped at CO1011 and advised he is running via the Goods Road, maximum 8 car, the route must be set and locked from CO1011 via P1 and down to the nxt signal in the Down Mainor Down Clacton. If we have to run a 12 car, it will not stop at Colchester and run to the Town or Hythe, likewise an IC servuce will be first stop Manningtree, with Passengers returning on next service. On a connected item, over the Christmas period this year, all through trains from 27th December to 2nd Jan ( I think those are the dates) are booked via the GL and P1 with a max of 8 cars, other trains in from Ipswich / Clacton will terminate on P4 and P5
 

800002

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the driver will be stopped at CO1011 and advised he is running via the Goods Road, maximum 8 car, the route must be set and locked from CO1011 via P1 and down to the nxt signal in the Down Mainor Down Clacton. If we have to run a 12 car, it will not stop at Colchester and run to the Town or Hythe, likewise an IC servuce will be first stop Manningtree, with Passengers returning on next service.
Please forgive the ignorance - but what is the reason for not being able to stop a 12 car on #1 if running via the goods?
Why, also, the requirement to have the route set forward onto the Dn Main / Clacton?

Also, is this a regular occurrence?

On a connected item, over the Christmas period this year, all through trains from 27th December to 2nd Jan ( I think those are the dates) are booked via the GL and P1 with a max of 8 cars, other trains in from Ipswich / Clacton will terminate on P4 and P5
That is lot of additional traffic over the goods, I assume they'll have to be stopped and follow the above instruction?

What's the additional running time like?

Thanks for the detailed info :)
 

Tomnick

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Please forgive the ignorance - but what is the reason for not being able to stop a 12 car on #1 if running via the goods?
Why, also, the requirement to have the route set forward onto the Dn Main / Clacton?

Also, is this a regular occurrence?


That is lot of additional traffic over the goods, I assume they'll have to be stopped and follow the above instruction?

What's the additional running time like?

Thanks for the detailed info :)
The goods lines appear to join platform 1 partway along its length if I’m not mistaken? Possibly that’s also why the route needs to be set forward, to allow it to get closer to the platform end if it’s tight. Hopefully swills will be along to confirm shortly!

Second part though - if it’s published (usually in the Weekly Operating Notice, supplemented by something in the notice case if the TOC’s got any sense), there’s no need to be stopped and advised as they’re already aware that it’s specially authorised.
 

800002

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The goods lines appear to join platform 1 partway along its length if I’m not mistaken? Possibly that’s also why the route needs to be set forward, to allow it to get closer to the platform end if it’s tight. Hopefully swills will be along to confirm shortly!
Just looked at NESA (as opposed to my quail - no comments, please) and Up and Down Goods joins the platform line considerably further down the platform than the quail suggests.
But yes, I would defer to Swills over any track diagram anyday! (apart from maybe a five mile).

Second part though - if it’s published (usually in the Weekly Operating Notice, supplemented by something in the notice case if the TOC’s got any sense), there’s no need to be stopped and advised as they’re already aware that it’s specially authorised.
That is an interesting point. Presumably, during the forthcoming enginering works, that may be the case.
 

Bald Rick

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For Colchester, google maps satellite view very helpfully shows a 12 car unit in P1, with the goods line joining roughly in the area of coach 9/10.
 
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