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EU Referendum: The result and aftermath...

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DerekC

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... but going behind peoples backs particularly to the EU as Hammond apparently has does not help any negotiations especially given the fact that the EU do not want us to leave either.

I was trying to find the source of this story. It seems to be a "senior Downing Street source" quoted on Twitter. Dominic Cummings perhaps? Seems to me that Bullsh*t Boris and the Brexiteers have been taking lessons from Mr T - if the truth doesn't suit you, invent a new one.
 
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edwin_m

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Nice typo :)

But Parliament voted against every deal put forward, regardless of how useless it was, so the default by Law as I understand it is to leave on 31st October. I realise there were stipulations regarding a deal for that to happen (and it might still happen, who knows), but going behind peoples backs particularly to the EU as Hammond apparently has does not help any negotiations especially given the fact that the EU do not want us to leave either.
Some pieces of legislation automatically lapse unless renewed, but I think it's unprecedented that Parliament had to vote for an outcome it didn't want (the default to no deal) in order to initiate a process that nearly everyone agreed should take place (to attempt to open negotiations). Normally if Parliament can't agree on anything different, the status quo prevails, which would be to remain.

On that basis there's a justification to revoke article 50 (not a typo this time). However given the referendum result and the likelihood of accusations of a stitch-up, I believe revoking should only be if agreed by another referendum, or as a last resort to prevent the undemocratic default to no deal. In the latter case there would probably need to be a referendum afterwards to get a democratic endorsement, or if rejected to start the whole process again - but hopefully the leave option at that stage would be better defined.

If Johnson is refusing to talk to the EU then it's not too surprising if someone else does.
 

Typhoon

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If only this could happen and with close neighbours. We could call it the union of Europe. That or we could start trading with Australia (Do we not already) whose former leader called us effing idiots for leaving the EU, or the US who want to bend us over a tree and do something medieval to us. Perhaps China who have just told us to geg out of what is going on in Hong Kong because it is none of our business. India who want freedom of movement to the UK for citizens in exchange for deal. The mind just boggles.

Apologies Typhoon. This isn't aimed at you. Just random thoughts.
No offence taken. You have made sound points. The sort of countries I was intending were Australia*, Canada, South Africa, Japan countries we may already have some sort of relation with. I would have liked to include Brazil but this country appears to have its own difficulties. On leaving the EU we would no longer be a very big fish (yes, I know about us being the nth biggest economy, but that is not what gives you weight - Russia has much greater weight than its economy because it has sway with other countries). I would steer clear of the China and US simply because of the size, there will be a price to pay for both. For the US
Democrat Nancy Pelosi, whose party controls the House, said the UK's exit from the EU could not be allowed to endanger the Irish peace deal.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-49348062
India, yes freedom of movement but also Kashmir.
Trade deals are not easy despite some politicians thinking otherwise, we have little recent experience so I would have thought that getting up to speed with countries who might be friendly but cannot pull rank might be useful. I don't think we have garnered that much experience in negotiating with Pacific Island countries, Central America and Iceland.

I would rather we weren't leaving the EU but as the newest star of Facebook seems to be determined to do so at any cost, I would rather we think our way through this - once we have a trade deal with an economic shark there will be no going back. There will be no article 50!

* You are right about us trading with Australia, but I don't think it is tariff free. There is a trade deal that Australia is negotiating - with the EU. They are up to Round 4 (out of how many, I have no idea), that has taken over a year!
 

anme

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My understanding is that is Law that the UK will leave the EU on October 31st and the only ways to change that is for either Parliament to change the Law, or the PM to request an extension to the EU. So if Hammond wants to change that, he would be (in my opinion) usurping UK law to do so. It's about as democratic as the PM proroguing parliament

I don't understand your point. Hammond can't change the law himself. Parliament could vote to change the law. Please explain what you mean.
 

dgl

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I wouldn't go so far as to say 'like', more 'prefer over BoJo'. But to be fair I would prefer a bag of dead badgers to BoJo, so that bar isn't very high! ;)



"This is Captain BoJo speaking. Everything is going to be just fine but just in case, adopt the brace position. Also please don't worry about the wings falling off, we are technically in a big tube & when I was at school we used to use big tubes to make rockets, and they flew OK. Oh and the smoke filling the cabin, well we are ignoring that for now, its probably Corbyn smoking something herbal...." ;):D

A quote from Chicken Run,
The exits are located here and here, in the quite likely event of an emergency put your head between your knees and kiss you bum goodbye!
 

YorkshireBear

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Is Boris Johnson referring to remainders in Parliament as collaborating with the EU (read enemy) dangerous wording? Possibly inciting anyone I to violence? By anyone i dont mean brexiteers in general. Both sides of the coin can be incited into violence.
 

edwin_m

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Is Boris Johnson referring to remainders in Parliament as collaborating with the EU (read enemy) dangerous wording? Possibly inciting anyone I to violence? By anyone i dont mean brexiteers in general. Both sides of the coin can be incited into violence.
I thought he was actually saying that they were just undermining his "negotiating" "strategy" of threatening a no deal unless the EU dropped the backstop (do what I say or I'll burn my house down). And probably preparing the ground to blame them when it all goes pear-shaped.
 

Typhoon

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Is Boris Johnson referring to remainders in Parliament as collaborating with the EU (read enemy) dangerous wording? Possibly inciting anyone I to violence? By anyone i dont mean brexiteers in general. Both sides of the coin can be incited into violence.
Sadly, I am reminded of 'Enemies of the People' https://www.independent.co.uk/news/media/daily-mail-nazi-propaganda-front-page-ipso-complaints-brexit-eu-enemies-of-the-people-a7409836.html. I would like to think that on reflection the Prime Minister wished he had used an alternative to 'collaborators', given his proficiency in the English language. They are people who object to government policy and are taking legitimate, legal (as far as I know) measures to oppose it.

The Eu as enemy, so much for 'Peace, Prosperity and Friendship with all nations'.

(Is the 'd' in the sixth word deliberate?)
 

EM2

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I thought he was actually saying that they were just undermining his "negotiating" "strategy" of threatening a no deal unless the EU dropped the backstop (do what I say or I'll burn my house down). And probably preparing the ground to blame them when it all goes pear-shaped.
Any anxiety about the backstop from Brexit supporters is a frank admission that they do not have confidence that there will be a future UK/EU relationship agreement.
 

Doppelganger

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Any anxiety about the backstop from Brexit supporters is a frank admission that they do not have confidence that there will be a future UK/EU relationship agreement.
There also won't be one with the US as they have said Congress will vote down any trade deal which threatens the Good Friday agreement.

When will it be time to hold your hands up and accept maybe this wasn't such a good idea and just write off the last 3 years and actually try to do something constructive like focus properly on the NHS, education and the inequality in society?

Probably never as long as someone can make some money out of it...
 

Cartaker

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This Brexit is going to be absolutely terrible. How will a country like Great Britain and Northern Ireland survive if we are not within the European Union. I just really cannot fathom how countries like Turkey, Australia, USA, Russia, China, Kenya, India and all the other NON 27 countries survive. I really just cannot understand it. Five of the ten richest countries in the world are not in the European Union. I just cannot imagine the poverty or supply problems they must deal with on a day to day basis.
 

YorkshireBear

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This Brexit is going to be absolutely terrible. How will a country like Great Britain and Northern Ireland survive if we are not within the European Union. I just really cannot fathom how countries like Turkey, Australia, USA, Russia, China, Kenya, India and all the other NON 27 countries survive. I really just cannot understand it. Five of the ten richest countries in the world are not in the European Union. I just cannot imagine the poverty or supply problems they must deal with on a day to day basis.

No one has said we won't survive.

And by the way I wouldn't want us to become like any single one of those countries!
 

Cartaker

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Most of the prominent leaver speculators would love us to become the 51st state.

That could never happen so why bring that into the conversation. If you know your politics, Corbyn would make us a state of Putin.
 

AM9

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That could never happen so why bring that into the conversation. If you know your politics, Corbyn would make us a state of Putin.
I'm talking about Rees-Mogg, Farage, Johnson and of course the dubious backers like Banks. They can't wait to be part of a right-wing country with even less equality than the UK now has.
 

Cartaker

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Or maybe just have the right information out there to start with so people can make an informed choice and not have to wade through tonnes of lies?.

The Swiss though that a good enough reason, why can't the Brits on a non-legally binding referendum?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-47879777

To right. People should have the right information before they are allowed to vote. Which is why David Cameron had a leaflet sent to every voter in the UK saying why people should vote to remain. Of Course there were no "lies" in that leaflet.
 

BlueFox

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To right. People should have the right information before they are allowed to vote. Which is why David Cameron had a leaflet sent to every voter in the UK saying why people should vote to remain. Of Course there were no "lies" in that leaflet.

You can read the leaflet here: https://webarchive.nationalarchives...uropean-union-is-the-best-decision-for-the-uk

Some of the information in it may be disputed, but I can't see any out and out lies like the ones the leave campaign told.
 

BlueFox

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How will a country like Great Britain and Northern Ireland survive if we are not within the European Union. I just really cannot fathom how countries like Turkey, Australia, USA, Russia, China, Kenya, India and all the other NON 27 countries survive.


Most of those other countries all have trade agreements with the EU, and are members of other trading blocs.
If we leave the EU without a deal, we'll be in a much weaker position than they are.
And other countries will know we're desperate for trade deals, so we'll get much worse terms than if we'd stayed in the EU.
 

EM2

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This Brexit is going to be absolutely terrible. How will a country like Great Britain and Northern Ireland survive if we are not within the European Union. I just really cannot fathom how countries like Turkey, Australia, USA, Russia, China, Kenya, India and all the other NON 27 countries survive. I really just cannot understand it. Five of the ten richest countries in the world are not in the European Union. I just cannot imagine the poverty or supply problems they must deal with on a day to day basis.
There is not a single country in the world that does what the UK is apparently quite prepared to do, which is to trade solely on WTO terms. Not one, and certainly none of those mentioned, who have multiple trading agreements and are members of trade blocs.
Even the often-mentioned Mauritania is a member of the African Union.
No Deal will be a catastrophe.
 

anme

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Best to have a referendum every year to make sure.. And ignore the ones you don't like.

Do you think our government should be based on the 2017 election or the 1997 election?

Why are leavers so scared to hold a referendum to confirm the UK wants a no deal?
 

ainsworth74

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Why are leavers so scared to hold a referendum to confirm the UK wants a no deal?

Who knows?

From my perspective, as a Remoaner, if we held another referendum and it still went in favour of leaving then fair enough, let's just do it! If after more than three years of this shower of the proverbial a majority of people have looked at it and gone "Yes! I want more of this!" then stuff it let's just give it to them. Leave with no-deal and just get it over with. And I would think (and as there's plenty of us on the thread I may be proved wrong) that that broad sentiment goes for quite a few on the Remain side. A second referendum where Leave win again? Well that's the end of the Remain argument as a viable political force in the near if a majority of voters still want more of this.

If Remain wins? Well great at least that's over and done with for the time being and we can start worrying about the DWP killing disabled people:

An investigation into the treatment of a man who was denied benefits despite being seriously ill and weighing 38kg (6st) before his death has found the Department for Work and Pensions “followed policy”.

Or the funding crisis in education:

The letter to Damian Hinds follows a report by the Institute for Fiscal Studies produced last year which said total school spending per pupil in England has fallen by eight per cent in real terms between 2009/10 and 2017/18. The letter is due to be handed in at the Department for Education headquarters in Westminster today. It said: "Our excellent state-funded schools have lost out in billions of pounds in funding since 2015. The funding crisis has become so overwhelming that, according to the Education Policy Institute, almost a third of all council-run secondary schools are now in deficit, and eight in 10 academies are in deficit.

Or the rise in knife crime:

There were 43,516 knife crime offences in the 12 months ending March 2019.

This is an 80% increase from the low-point in the year ending March 2014, when there were 23,945 offences, and is the highest number since comparable data was compiled.

Or whatever other issues (and they are myriad) are currently facing us and have all been sacrificed on the alter of Brexit. They might get passing coverage, the odd debate in Parliament but so much of Government time, media time and the public attention is just being sucked into the blackhole that represents Brexit.
 

Bantamzen

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This Brexit is going to be absolutely terrible. How will a country like Great Britain and Northern Ireland survive if we are not within the European Union. I just really cannot fathom how countries like Turkey, Australia, USA, Russia, China, Kenya, India and all the other NON 27 countries survive. I really just cannot understand it. Five of the ten richest countries in the world are not in the European Union. I just cannot imagine the poverty or supply problems they must deal with on a day to day basis.

The answer is simple, they already have trade deals in place. However a no deal scenario will mean we fall out of the EU, and the 70 odd trade deals that the EU has negotiated, falling back to less preferable WTO tariffs. And as trade deals can take years to broker, we will likely be hamstrung in trading for years, maybe decades whilst we try to negotiate back towards our previous position. That will come at a cost, which will be borne by all UK citizens, regardless of their views on Brexit. But I thought everyone knew this by now? It wasn't written on the side of a bus admittedly, but it has been well discussed ever since the spectre of no deal came into view.
 

anme

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From my perspective, as a Remoaner, if we held another referendum and it still went in favour of leaving then fair enough, let's just do it! If after more than three years of this shower of the proverbial a majority of people have looked at it and gone "Yes! I want more of this!" then stuff it let's just give it to them. Leave with no-deal and just get it over with. And I would think (and as there's plenty of us on the thread I may be proved wrong) that that broad sentiment goes for quite a few on the Remain side. A second referendum where Leave win again? Well that's the end of the Remain argument as a viable political force in the near if a majority of voters still want more of this.

I don't agree with your last sentence.

This doesn't end on 1st November, with or without a deal. Taking the long term view, what's the best way to prove the value of EU membership? Answer - take it away in the most dramatic, unplanned, unpragmatic, ideologically-driven and damaging way possible.

The leave side seem to have given up all rationality and be driven entirely by fervour and paranoia. They make the fatal mistake of believing their own myths. (or making up new ones - such as Johnson's kippers. why did he do this? is he laughing at this own supporters?)

To make brexit work (not just happen), it needs to be done slowly, carefully, with a managed transition from one situation to another and with as much consensus in the country as possible. That way the disruption and hardship as, for example, trading arrangements and citizens' rights change can be managed and minimised (even if not totally prevented). A no deal brexit is the exact opposite of this.

The harder the brexit, the more damaging to the UK and to the leave cause. And the quicker the UK will return to the EU, one way or another. This is a marathon, not a sprint. The sad thing is how many people will have their lives badly disrupted along the way.
 

YorkshireBear

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I have read this thread maybe you have not. Philip Hammond and Mark Carney spring to mind.

Phillip Hammond and Mark Carney are as far as I am aware not members of this forum. So actually what they say is irrelevant as a passionate remainder I think Hammond is quite an idiot for the way he behaves regarding brexit. So what they say has no baring on the discussion between individuals on this thread.
 

YorkshireBear

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To right. People should have the right information before they are allowed to vote. Which is why David Cameron had a leaflet sent to every voter in the UK saying why people should vote to remain. Of Course there were no "lies" in that leaflet.

Excellent logic, david Cameron a remainder lied therefore everyone else can lie too. What a moral way of upholding this countries politics.

Again as a passionate remainder I to ought that leaflet was an horrific decision.
 
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