Onboard Catering - Passenger Poll (buffet/shop vs trolley)

GoneSouth · 12 Aug 2019

RLBH said:
beyond maybe six or eight hours, a restaurant car starts to look appealing

Hmm, looking forward to the full breakfast service on the Penzance to Glasgow Pullman Voyager tomorrow, just hope I’ll be able to get to the restaurant car without climbing over kids, parents, grandparents, backpacks, suitcases, dogs and assorted pushchairs, buggies and prams, any of which block the aisles and vestibules regularly on the voyagers.

I do love the idea of restaurant cars on long distance trips but I think we’ll both just have to keep dreaming I’m afraid!

Actually on the longer distance XC services it amuses me how hot water, teabags and limp sandwiches are unavailable beyond Plymouth heading west, or prior to arriving at Plymouth on the return journey.

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northernbelle · 12 Aug 2019

fgwrich said:
That was, somewhat unsurprisingly, GWR. The questions provided to the “public” where something on the lines of “Would you prefer an old fashioned style buffet or an at seat service with food bought to you”. The biggest issue / bugbear I have with this is how hideously ambiguous this question is. By saying “An Old Fashioned Style Buffet” instantly makes the buffet sound old and past it’s sell by date, while the “an at seat service with food bought to you” make it sound as if GWR we’re going to offer you a Pullman or Travelling Chef style service. Of course what we have in reality is a poorly stocked / offering of a trolley designed and leased from Hitachi - all part of the apparently “Improved Service” we have with these IEPs.

I was speaking to the buffet staff on both ScotRail and LNERs HSTs the other day - both make valid points that, when announced or through signage in the train, people know where the buffet is. Not just for food but in case they need to speak to a member of staff, or in case of an emergency - something that isn’t as easy for a member of the public having to find a trolley attendant or member of on train staff on a packed out train (the buffet effectively being a focal point or meeting place if you will).

Another issue I have with trollies, barring the limited selection is being highlighted on this service as we speak. The member of staff is trying to get through this 170 with the trolley, but people are now coming up to him as he serves. This then both blocks the aisle, causes confusion for the staff member and is frustrating for other passengers who aren’t effectively jumping the gun. Becoming a static trolley may help, but then it defeats the point of having a trolley and you might as well just have a buffet or permanent trolley space (similar to the South Central 319s).

(He’s also now just run out of hot water and crisps, limiting his selection further).

Do you have a copy of the questions FGW asked? Only people keep mentioning them but I've never actually seen them produced by the folk that reference them. They've become something of a King Arthur Legend!

northernbelle · 12 Aug 2019

xotGD said:
TPExpress offer filter coffee in a cup with a clever lid. By far the best you'll get from a trolley. Just a pity that so many of their services are so rammed that the trolley can't get through.

GWR seem to be offering this as well - Lavaza filter coffee with a filter lid that looks like one of Camilla Parker-Bowles' hats! Nice coffee though.

ashkeba · 12 Aug 2019

DarloRich said:
Indeed. I have been involved in these consultations and the questions are often something like:

Would you like an at seat service

Would you like to walk to the buffet and pick up your refreshments

Most people will choose option 1 expecting that the buffet person will bring you something from the buffet menu rather than an often half empty trolley. The TOC wants you to choose option 1 because it reduces their overhead.

Well of course they expect someone bringing you things from the buffet because that's what happens on good services like Austria's Rail Jet. Has any UK TOC tried it?

ashkeba · 12 Aug 2019

xotGD said:
TPExpress offer filter coffee in a cup with a clever lid. By far the best you'll get from a trolley.

Maybe best taste, but presumably that's extra single use plastic and customers can't use their reusable coffee cups that station buffets now incentivise?

markymark2000 · 12 Aug 2019

Buffet I prefer.

Trolley has the cons of being more inconvenient. You can only buy when it comes to you. Otherwise, you don't know where it is and when services are busy, the trolley ends up sitting at the doors blocking them.
I also find the trolley doesn't offer as much choice and is a lot more inconvenient for others with it stopping and starting through the carriage, it means people going to the toilet or preparing to alight at a station can't do so (those who put their bags on the luggage racks and then find seats at the other end of the carriage) because of the trolley in the aisle.

Buffet is more difficult to get to/from when you are carrying stuff and it can be the quite far but much better than a trolley car which attempts to go through the train once per hour.

yorkie · 13 Aug 2019

What would people prefer to see on the West Coast franchise? A continuation of the current shop, or replacing it with an at-seat trolley?

DarloRich · 14 Aug 2019

td97 said:
"at seat service for every passenger" and "additional luggage space" regarding the Pendolino refurb had better not compromise the buffet.

the buffet is completely rubbish!

gordonthemoron said:
more seats/luggage space on Pendolinos sounds like removing the shop and possibly converting a first class coach to standard

Good. More space for plebs like me

Wolfie · 14 Aug 2019

The buffet is orders of magnitude better than the useless trolley on GWR 800s.

stepho · 14 Aug 2019

"at seat service"....... sake.

py_megapixel · 14 Aug 2019

I think that these complaints about the loss of the buffet are not justified. Firstly (no pun intended), although it seems extremely likely, it has not been officially announced, and secondly the buffet was never particularly good. It sells a restricted selection of poor-quality prepackaged food at ridiculous prices, with the "hey, we can sell stuff which isn't food!" section being somewhat pointless and equally overpriced.

It's like an over-the-top trolley, except you have to fight your way through dozens of standing passengers to reach it. More seats are more important at the moment than the nostalgia factor.

One thing I do not welcome however is the prospect of fewer tables and more airline seating. I find Pendolinos to be claustrophobic enough as it is, and I have long legs, leading me to prefer the slightly more spacious table bays.

4-SUB 4732 · 14 Aug 2019

stepho said:
"at seat service"....... sake.

I think this is the bit that got me the most...

Ianno87 · 14 Aug 2019

stepho said:
"at seat service"....... sake.

py_megapixel said:
I think that these complaints about the loss of the buffet are not justified. Firstly (no pun intended), although it seems extremely likely, it has not been officially announced, and secondly the buffet was never particularly good. It sells a restricted selection of poor-quality prepackaged food at ridiculous prices, with the "hey, we can sell stuff which isn't food!" section being somewhat pointless and equally overpriced.

It's like an over-the-top trolley, except you have to fight your way through dozens of standing passengers to reach it. More seats are more important at the moment than the nostalgia factor.

One thing I do not welcome however is the prospect of fewer tables and more airline seating. I find Pendolinos to be claustrophobic enough as it is, and I have long legs, leading me to prefer the slightly more spacious table bays.

4-SUB 4732 said:
I think this is the bit that got me the most...

I observed the 'shop' sat in Coach C travelling from Brum to London yesterday. I think it had perhaps 4 customers the entire journey. Waste of space.

4-SUB 4732 · 14 Aug 2019

Ianno87 said:
I observed the 'shop' sat in Coach C travelling from Brum to London yesterday. I think it had perhaps 4 customers the entire journey. Waste of space.

And yet other times I’ve been on the train and sat in C, I’ve had a queue for the entirety of the trip.

Nobody has a perfect buffet: the sandwich flavours can always court controversy, the offering may not be to your taste. That said, I’ve always found the Shop to be the best in the industry.

dk1 · 14 Aug 2019

4-SUB 4732 said:
And yet other times I’ve been on the train and sat in C, I’ve had a queue for the entirety of the trip.

Nobody has a perfect buffet: the sandwich flavours can always court controversy, the offering may not be to your taste. That said, I’ve always found the Shop to be the best in the industry.

I have to agree with you. For selection & sheer quantity of sandwiches I have found the Virgin shop to be the most reliable of all operators with extra stock being brought on en-route. I also have sat in coach C with the trade being continuous.

DarloRich · 14 Aug 2019

Ianno87 said:
I observed the 'shop' sat in Coach C travelling from Brum to London yesterday. I think it had perhaps 4 customers the entire journey. Waste of space.

Agreed. Rip it out. It wastes so much space and can't return much profit.

bengley · 14 Aug 2019

I like the shop and it'll be a shame if it goes. Perhaps update the range of products sold but don't change to a crappy trolley.

Fincra5 · 14 Aug 2019

DarloRich said:
Agreed. Rip it out. It wastes so much space and can't return much profit.

The shop is good! I was disappinted when they got rid of GWR Buffet Cars for a poxy trolly. Also the shop, depending on Route/ Day can be very profitable.

I don't think a Shop is really required on the Birmingham Trains. If they go down 397 style route, might as well stick them on Brums and Pendolinos still on Liverpool.

RailWonderer · 14 Aug 2019

VT needs to overhaul its buffet/shop to stay relevant. Trolley is only suitable for Euston - Brum.

GWR needs a buffet shop on most services bar for its shortest Bristol/Cheltenham’s to London. Trolley has barely anything on it except some crisps and coffee where the stacked cups make the trolley look like a leaning Tower of Pisa on wheels. And it can’t circulate when the train is full and standing. Buffet is far better.

I am however, over the moon that GA is keeping a ‘bistro’ on its Norwich - London IC service.

ashkeba · 14 Aug 2019

RailWonderer said:
I am however, over the moon that GA is keeping a ‘bistro’ on its Norwich - London IC service.

Those used to have restaurants on them! I remember deliberately using one so I could have a meal on the way to the ferry, instead of using the direct boat train that was by then some beaten-up commuter carriages and a pale shadow of the old Hook Continental.

DarloRich · 14 Aug 2019

Fincra5 said:
The shop is good! I was disappinted when they got rid of GWR Buffet Cars for a poxy trolly. Also the shop, depending on Route/ Day can be very profitable.

I am sorry but the shop on Virgin trains is NOT good. it has a fairly limited range, uses up loads of space selling rubbish like hello magazines and it seems to sell products in tiny portions for an excessive price. 4 cans for £12 is not an offer.

Rip it out and get a decent trolley like what they have on LNER

stepho · 14 Aug 2019

DarloRich said:
Agreed. Rip it out. It wastes so much space and can't return much profit.

Why stop there? You could apply that to much of the railway if that's your thinking........

joncombe · 14 Aug 2019

theblackwatch said:
Absolutely regarding the last point. As a typical example, I was quite late arriving for my train at King's Cross and had to join near the back at walk through to my coach at the front of the train. It hadn't even left King's Cross, but the trolley was making its way through coach G so I had to wait to be able to get past it. The other thing is, you can't get a drink when you want one from the trolley. It might appear in an hour or two, or just at the point when you're about to get off.

Whilst I like to have them, the trolleys on the SWR 159s can be a real problem at times. For some reason SWR always lock the front most door on their 159s/158s. This means if you are in that carriage and the trolley comes through as you approach the station you want to get off at, you have to ask the trolley to move back or find a spare seat to squeeze into to let them pass you in time or you'll be stuck unable to get off. I think mostly the trolley operators realise this and try to avoid letting it happen but at parts of the route where there is little time between stations, it does happen.

joncombe · 14 Aug 2019

Definitely buffet for me. I've travelled on GWR twice since the IETs took over. On the first journey there was no catering (at all). On my return the train was cancelled, as was the next train so and I ended up going via Salisbury instead to get home.

On my second return journey the train was 2*5 cars, but they only had a trolley in one of the two units, and not the one my seat reservation is in. On the way back the trolley did come around but they did not have hot food (unlike the buffet cars on the HST). So I asked for a sandwich and even then she did not have it on the trolley and had to disappear off somewhere to get it!

With a buffet car it was extremely rare in my experience for it not to be open, but on GWR since the IETs came in a I have a record of 1/4 for being able to buy any food on the train, and what was available was far more limited than before (I do usually use on-train catering on long distance trains when it is available and find it a very valuable part of the service).

DarloRich · 14 Aug 2019

stepho said:
Why stop there? You could apply that to much of the railway if that's your thinking........

Eh? Most people are going to buy food before they board. I bet most sales are tea/coffee, alcohol, sandwiches and biscuits - all of which can be supplied easily by a trolley

ashkeba · 15 Aug 2019

DarloRich said:
Eh? Most people are going to buy food before they board. I bet most sales are tea/coffee, alcohol, sandwiches and biscuits - all of which can be supplied easily by a trolley

So you only care about most. And trollies run out fairly often, which is why more and more people feel they have to waste time buying before they board. I only remember buffets running out twice, once on an old XC IC stuck in the snow for hours (and then only hot water ran out) and once on an Voyager where the Leeds resupply did not make a platform alteration before we left for Edinburgh.

Buffets are better because they let you choose what onboard time to use buying food rather than waiting for a trolly or cause disruption going to find it (if it is working).

DarloRich · 15 Aug 2019

ashkeba said:
which is why more and more people feel they have to waste time buying before they board.

no idea what you are on about? Waste time? Did i just waste time buying my lunch?

ashkeba said:
Buffets are better because they let you choose what onboard time to use buying food rather than waiting for a trolly or cause disruption going to find it (if it is working).

whit respect: You are actually saying buffets are better for you. I would contend they are not better for all.

ashkeba · 15 Aug 2019

DarloRich said:
no idea what you are on about? Waste time? Did i just waste time buying my lunch?

If you bought it standing stull at a station when you could have bought it while moving on a train, then yes! You have just effectively lengthened your train journey time. Why is this a difficult concept? Say you were going on a long train journey - is it quicker to arrive at the station at 10am in good time for your train or do you arrive at 9.30 so you have time to walk all the way around the supermarket next door and across its car park twice to buy lunch? Being able to buy food without even slowing down for a terribell drive through seems like a key benefit of long distance train travel.

DarloRich said:
whit respect: You are actually saying buffets are better for you. I would contend they are not better for all.

Of course yes to both of those. Do we not each mainly say how things are for us? And of course, no decision is better for everyone in every way.

But I would also contend buffets are better for more than they are bad for, especially when there is an unused food space on the train anyway (GWR) or hosting trolly facilities take up space (for supplies because a trolly cannot hold enough, or a static trolly dock because the trolly can often not move through the train). Get rid of the trollies from long-distance and put their space towards a modern Austrian or German buffet.

Actually I would even say get rid of the trollies from medium-distance and use Dutch-style carry-on tray sellers.

DarloRich · 15 Aug 2019

ashkeba said:
If you bought it standing stull at a station when you could have bought it while moving on a train, then yes! You have just effectively lengthened your train journey time. Why is this a difficult concept? Say you were going on a long train journey - is it quicker to arrive at the station at 10am in good time for your train or do you arrive at 9.30 so you have time to walk all the way around the supermarket next door and across its car park twice to buy lunch? Being able to buy food without even slowing down for a terribell drive through seems like a key benefit of long distance train travel.

I arrive at 0930/0945 so i don't miss the train so have loads of time to waste.......................

ashkeba said:
Actually I would even say get rid of the trollies from medium-distance and use Dutch-style carry-on tray sellers.

nothing better than a coffee backpack - no way demeaning

whhistle · 17 Aug 2019

I get having choice is nice but I have only ever bought on board once.
Prices are a lot more so I'd choose to have neither if possible.

Onboard Catering - Passenger Poll (buffet/shop vs trolley)

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