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Liverpool Norwich service to be split at Nottingham

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Greybeard33

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I expect once the route is mapped to TPE, they'll continue their obsession with sending trains to Manchester Airport. One of the comments above says a lot about the messed up priorities. Passengers for a major city can be expected to change trains, but the comparative handful of people traveling to the airport must have a door to door service! Screams at any suggestion of changing trains for that.
I have previously argued that the TPE Cleethorpes service should also run through to Liverpool via Warrington Central, in place of the Northern Liverpool to Airport semi-fast. That would give a half hourly direct service between Liverpool and Sheffield. Manchester Airport would still have 7tph from Piccadilly and Airport passengers to/from Liverpool and Sheffield would have a straightforward change on Piccadilly P13/14.
 
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Jamesrob637

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I have previously argued that the TPE Cleethorpes service should also run through to Liverpool via Warrington Central, in place of the Northern Liverpool to Airport semi-fast. That would give a half hourly direct service between Liverpool and Sheffield. Manchester Airport would still have 7tph from Piccadilly and Airport passengers to/from Liverpool and Sheffield would have a straightforward change on Piccadilly P13/14.

Not to mention giving the CLC line nice 185s again as it lost 15 months ago. Mostly 6-car by then with any luck!
 

edwin_m

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The core of this leg is Sheffield-Piccadilly. That forms part of 3 tph with Northern and TPE.

Yes, if offers choice, but that is a mixed blessing at present. East Midlands in particular can be very late due to knock on delays from almost anywhere.

TPE are the only one to offer first class so take up isn't as high as it would be if there were 2 tph to choose from.

185s are less flexible regarding train length and walk through capability.

Ideally the route should be worked by walk through units that can accelerate quickly yet are light enough to use the present tracks.

All units can be overcrowded at peak hours and luggage can jam doorways. Bikes are also an issue, but provision of more carriages by all operators will help.

Any thoughts that remapping would coincide with availability of improved capacity through Dore with the addition of a 3rd fast train should be aware that is unlikely before late 2023 if not into 2024.
My experience is that EMT is pretty good into Nottingham from the east, and if the Norwich unit fails to turn up they can at least send the strengthening unit on its own with the rostered driver. The problem is getting through Manchester, staying ahead of the stoppers on the CLC, and if either of these results in delay at Liverpool then that is probably compounded by late start on the way back. Transfer to TPE or Northern might allow quicker turnaround of trains at Liverpool if they changed crews there, but wouldn't do much to help the other issues.
 

edwin_m

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I have previously argued that the TPE Cleethorpes service should also run through to Liverpool via Warrington Central, in place of the Northern Liverpool to Airport semi-fast. That would give a half hourly direct service between Liverpool and Sheffield. Manchester Airport would still have 7tph from Piccadilly and Airport passengers to/from Liverpool and Sheffield would have a straightforward change on Piccadilly P13/14.
Passed through P14 this morning and the "shouters" are now telling people waiting for a later train to go up to the lounge. So perhaps there's no longer such a thing as a straightforward change there.
 

bunnahabhain

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My experience is that EMT is pretty good into Nottingham from the east, and if the Norwich unit fails to turn up they can at least send the strengthening unit on its own with the rostered driver. The problem is getting through Manchester, staying ahead of the stoppers on the CLC, and if either of these results in delay at Liverpool then that is probably compounded by late start on the way back. Transfer to TPE or Northern might allow quicker turnaround of trains at Liverpool if they changed crews there, but wouldn't do much to help the other issues.
Drivers step back an hour at present, it is the Guard who have a 20min short break taken on the train.
 

ChrisC

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My experience is that EMT is pretty good into Nottingham from the east, and if the Norwich unit fails to turn up they can at least send the strengthening unit on its own with the rostered driver. The problem is getting through Manchester, staying ahead of the stoppers on the CLC, and if either of these results in delay at Liverpool then that is probably compounded by late start on the way back. Transfer to TPE or Northern might allow quicker turnaround of trains at Liverpool if they changed crews there, but wouldn't do much to help the other issues.

I’ve travelled from Manchester Oxford Road to Alfreton with EMT about half a dozen times in the last 3 months. Almost every journey the train has been shown as leaving Liverpool on time and seems to be reasonably ok as far as Warrington Central. From there onwards it seems to loose more and more time as it approaches Manchester and has been at least 10 minutes late arriving in Oxford Road and even later by the time it departs from Stockport. One of my journeys in May was so delayed that it even got behind the stopper through the Hope Valley resulting in it eventually arriving in Alfreton well over 30 minutes late.

It’s the through passengers travelling west to east who will be inconvenienced the most with the splitting of this route. I can see it being a regular occurrence that through passengers will get off the train from Liverpool in Nottingham to see the Norwich train just departing, leaving them with an hour to wait. Trains are not held for late running connections these days. The main people to benefit from this split will those running the retail outlets at Nottingham.
 
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Ianno87

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I’ve travelled from Manchester Oxford Road to Alfreton with EMT about half a dozen times in the last 3 months. Almost every journey the train has been shown as leaving Liverpool on time and seems to be reasonably ok as far as Warrington Central. From there onwards it seems to loose more and more time as it approaches Manchester and has been at least 10 minutes late arriving in Oxford Road and even later by the time it departs from Stockport. One of my journeys in May was so delayed that it even got behind the stopper through the Hope Valley resulting in it eventually arriving in Alfreton well over 30 minutes late.

It’s the through passengers travelling west to east who will be inconvenienced the most with the splitting of this route. I can see it being a regular occurrence that through passengers will get off the train from Liverpool in Nottingham to see the Norwich train just departing, leaving them with an hour to wait. Trains are not held for late running connections these days. The main people to benefit from this split will those running the retail outlets at Nottingham.

Or journey planners will just route them nowhere near Nottingham in the first place, via a faster route. E.g. Manchester-Doncaster-Peterborough.
 

edwin_m

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Drivers step back an hour at present, it is the Guard who have a 20min short break taken on the train.
True. Providing one more set of guard's turns so they both step back together strikes me as a lot cheaper and less disruptive than splitting the service...

I’ve travelled from Manchester Oxford Road to Alfreton with EMT about half a dozen times in the last 3 months. Almost every journey the train has been shown as leaving Liverpool on time and seems to be reasonably ok as far as Warrington Central. From there onwards it seems to loose more and more time as it approaches Manchester and has been at least 10 minutes late arriving in Oxford Road and even later by the time it departs from Stockport. One of my journeys in May was so delayed that it even got behind the stopper through the Hope Valley resulting in it eventually arriving in Alfreton well over 30 minutes late.
I had exactly this situation today in Manchester on what is almost certainly my last journey with EMT, but it did manage to keep the lateness down to 10min or so.
 

Class 170101

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I’ve travelled from Manchester Oxford Road to Alfreton with EMT about half a dozen times in the last 3 months. Almost every journey the train has been shown as leaving Liverpool on time and seems to be reasonably ok as far as Warrington Central. From there onwards it seems to loose more and more time as it approaches Manchester and has been at least 10 minutes late arriving in Oxford Road and even later by the time it departs from Stockport. One of my journeys in May was so delayed that it even got behind the stopper through the Hope Valley resulting in it eventually arriving in Alfreton well over 30 minutes late.

It’s the through passengers travelling west to east who will be inconvenienced the most with the splitting of this route. I can see it being a regular occurrence that through passengers will get off the train from Liverpool in Nottingham to see the Norwich train just departing, leaving them with an hour to wait. Trains are not held for late running connections these days. The main people to benefit from this split will those running the retail outlets at Nottingham.

Or journey planners will just route them nowhere near Nottingham in the first place, via a faster route. E.g. Manchester-Doncaster-Peterborough.

Or more likely via London.
 

TrainTube

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Splitting Norwich to Liverpool is idiotic, but this is the DFT we're talking about so I'm not surprised they do something that is worse for the passengers. No doubt there will be a sizeable wait for connecting passengers.

It probably looked good on paper to some person who never uses trains but ticked a few boxes for someone somewhere along the line because from everything I heard the consultation was heavily against this, but when did the DFT ever listen?
To be fair, I can't think of any reasons why you would need to connect. If your going north of chesterfield from Grantham or further south east then you would go to the ECML to Doncaster then to Sheffield. So unless there's people going from Grantham to Chesterfield, then I don't really see the point.
Having said that, there's always the people that think a direct service is the fastest, I can imagine people getting on that train at Peterborough and going to somewhere like Sheffield.
 

ChrisC

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To be fair, I can't think of any reasons why you would need to connect. If your going north of chesterfield from Grantham or further south east then you would go to the ECML to Doncaster then to Sheffield. So unless there's people going from Grantham to Chesterfield, then I don't really see the point.
Having said that, there's always the people that think a direct service is the fastest, I can imagine people getting on that train at Peterborough and going to somewhere like Sheffield.

There’s a very good reason why someone may want to travel via Nottingham rather than via Doncaster and the ECML. That is the difference in price if you are wanting to use cheaper Advance tickets. Hopefully Advance Fares for journeys like Sheffield to Norwich will still be available once the route is split.
 

Killingworth

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I knew people who worked at Norwich Union's Sheffield offices who had to go to Norwich from time to time. As far as I recall they'd normally go to Doncaster then ECML to Grantham or Peterborough to pick up the same EMT service they could have caught earlier if they'd wanted a through journey. From memory they might have got quarter of an hour extra time in bed by going for the later sequence of connecting trains.
 

Ianno87

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There’s a very good reason why someone may want to travel via Nottingham rather than via Doncaster and the ECML. That is the difference in price if you are wanting to use cheaper Advance tickets. Hopefully Advance Fares for journeys like Sheffield to Norwich will still be available once the route is split.

I regularly do Cambridge-North West journeys and the best Advances are routinely via the ECML and Leeds.
 

Llandudno

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There’s a very good reason why someone may want to travel via Nottingham rather than via Doncaster and the ECML. That is the difference in price if you are wanting to use cheaper Advance tickets. Hopefully Advance Fares for journeys like Sheffield to Norwich will still be available once the route is split.
I can’t imagine that the advance fares in the future will be as attractive as they are at the moment.

I suppose you could still change trains at Nottingham and split ticket?
 

ashkeba

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Having said that, there's always the people that think a direct service is the fastest, I can imagine people getting on that train at Peterborough and going to somewhere like Sheffield.
Not only those, but this change will annoy people who prefer to get on a train and just work for the journey without interruptions for changing and degrade service for people with reduced mobility - including but not only those who need to book assistance to board or alight.
 
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Not only those, but this change will annoy people who prefer to get on a train and just work for the journey without interruptions for changing and degrade service for people with reduced mobility - including but not only those who need to book assistance to board or alight.

Nottingham can be a terrible for changing trains if you have mobility problems or for other reasons need to use the station's lifts (say a family with a buggy or someone with a bike), as they are located at the extreme west end of the station.

If the Liverpool - Nottingham service could terminate in platform 5 and the through Matlock - Norwich services use platform 4 (eastbound) and 6 (westbound), an interchange would be quite easy as they are all on the same island; however, most eastbound services currently seem to use platform 3, so if this continues passengers changing to it from stations west of Sheffield are bound to have a long transfer unless the Liverpool service terminates in platform 1. And if the northbound service starts from the same platform, passengers changing to it from a Norwich - Matlock service are bound to have a long transfer as they would arrive at 4, 6, or 7.

Passengers between Norwich and Chesterfield/Sheffield (and vice versa) will have the option of changing at Derby as an alternative to Nottingham; from experiences, this is a far better station for changing trains if you have mobility problems than is Nottingham (whilst the lift on platform 7 was out of use following the station's fire, it was necessary for a passenger who used a wheelchair and arriving at that platform to be taken off the station from the east end of it, then along the adjacent Queen's Road to the station's west end, then back through the station's main entrance on Carrington Street and through the barrier line to reach a lift to take him/her down to the platform they needed!)
 

Ianno87

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Not only those, but this change will annoy people who prefer to get on a train and just work for the journey without interruptions .

A bit pointless when the train does not have plug sockets and a laptop battery won't last long enough to cover 3-4-5 hours. Add an extra change, a faster journey to get home to the family and a plug socket!
 

dk1

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A bit pointless when the train does not have plug sockets and a laptop battery won't last long enough to cover 3-4-5 hours. Add an extra change, a faster journey to get home to the family and a plug socket!
Many 158s have USB under the seat.
 

Bletchleyite

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A bit pointless when the train does not have plug sockets and a laptop battery won't last long enough to cover 3-4-5 hours. Add an extra change, a faster journey to get home to the family and a plug socket!

My laptop battery lasts about 6 hours (and is replaceable, so can be swapped easily when it doesn't any more) - and that's on a £400 basic HP, nowt fancy.

The likes of Macbooks can do 8-9 hours these days.
 

Ianno87

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Many 158s have USB under the seat.

Can't charge a laptop off a USB.

My laptop battery lasts about 6 hours (and is replaceable, so can be swapped easily when it doesn't any more) - and that's on a £400 basic HP, nowt fancy.

The likes of Macbooks can do 8-9 hours these days.

Depends on what your employer uses. I've never been able to get more than 2.5 hours out of mine, even when new (it's quite a big one).
 

Bletchleyite

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Never knew that but then I've not used a laptop for many a year. Time they got you a different device.

Agreed. 2 hours battery life is downright poor for a laptop. If they want you to work on the move, there are plenty of cheap laptops with long battery lives such as my £400 HP with a 6 hour life. That companies can't be bothered providing their staff with appropriate equipment (which is available cheaply and pretty much instantly with massive competition in the market) is not a reason to change how trains are fitted out.
 

ashkeba

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Many 158s have USB under the seat.
I don't trust them to provide reliable voltage, so I tend to use it to charge one battery pack while I use the internal battery on my tablet in a keyboard case, whose battery lasts about six hours even with the screen brightness up high. Carrying a big laptop usually means using a wheelie case and lifts for me and I often prefer to avoid that so I can stagger up steps in stations like Notinham if I need - still faster than most lifts... but my rant about slooooow station lifts is for another topic. I just would really prefer not to have to change in Notinham or Derby as well as Ely (which although slower is easier than Peterborough in at least it has a big ramp between platforms!) but it seems government did not attach much weight to disabillity rights when reviewing services.
 

_toommm_

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I don't trust them to provide reliable voltage, so I tend to use it to charge one battery pack while I use the internal battery on my tablet in a keyboard case, whose battery lasts about six hours even with the screen brightness up high. Carrying a big laptop usually means using a wheelie case and lifts for me and I often prefer to avoid that so I can stagger up steps in stations like Notinham if I need - still faster than most lifts... but my rant about slooooow station lifts is for another topic. I just would really prefer not to have to change in Notinham or Derby as well as Ely (which although slower is easier than Peterborough in at least it has a big ramp between platforms!) but it seems government did not attach much weight to disabillity rights when reviewing services.

Grab a Macbook Pro - yes they're expensive, but they'll last you years and the battery life is great.

Mine was about £2,000 before my student discount, but I'm confident it'll last me a good 5/6 years at least.
 

ashkeba

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Grab a Macbook Pro - yes they're expensive, but they'll last you years and the battery life is great.

Mine was about £2,000 before my student discount, but I'm confident it'll last me a good 5/6 years at least.
Work pays but Apple is its own strange ecosystem, I don't want to be trying to secure and interface it to my work systems, the tablets work well enough and have great battery life and I am not sure buying new laptops really helps that much with the loss of a through train service!
 

edwin_m

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The most likely units for Liverpool-Nottingham are 185s, which do have mains sockets. So in that respect at least the service should be better. Since we don't know for certain what units will work EMR Regional, we probably don't know whether they will have mains sockets but it is possible.
 

hooverboy

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The most likely units for Liverpool-Nottingham are 185s, which do have mains sockets. So in that respect at least the service should be better. Since we don't know for certain what units will work EMR Regional, we probably don't know whether they will have mains sockets but it is possible.
they'll be class 170 according to the MD,in a mixture of 2 and 3 car varieties.
 
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