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Northern 323s refurbishment and cascade
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WatcherZero
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Yes, generally in technical terms Derogation is a permanent easement of requirements, Dispensation is a temporary easement.
swt_passenger
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Modern Railways’ website is now reporting, (in an article published today 15th), that all 323s are definitely staying with or going to Northern:
LOL The Irony
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Northern confirmed this with the press release about the pacers retiring
Good news in my opinion! The 319s really aren't suited for some of the work they are used on, and were planned to be used on - notably the Crewe to Lime St. via Airport stoppers, and the Glossop and Hadfield route (although that's getting the 331s in the future).
LOL The Irony
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Anyways I think the thread name needs amending.
swt_passenger
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Is that online somewhere? Perhaps you could link to it...
LOL The Irony
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Certainly, 2nd paragraph from the bottom.
https://scontent.fmla1-2.fna.fbcdn....=25116fd7fd207b5f0c33ec7c1d1f50db&oe=5DEAF3F3
Also see here.
This is great news. The 323s are excellent EMUs, perfectly suited to the jobs they currently do in the North West. Let's hope for a good refurbishment.
Good riddance to the 319s on the Liverpool Lime Street services, I say. Unreliable and uncomfortable units with dreadful acceleration and consistently poor availability. Three of the last four booked 319 workings I've used in the last month have been operated by substitute DMUs.
Good riddance to the 319s on the Liverpool Lime Street services, I say. Unreliable and uncomfortable units with dreadful acceleration and consistently poor availability. Three of the last four booked 319 workings I've used in the last month have been operated by substitute DMUs.
swt_passenger
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Yes, but that didn’t mention the incoming ex-LM fleet as well? That seems to be news, although widely expected.
Xenophon PCDGS
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Remember all the anguish and angst that surfaced in the Manchester area when the announcement made quite a while ago that all the Northern Class 323 were heading off Birmingham-way?
xotGD
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So, repainting the 319s. That was money well spent.
Xenophon PCDGS
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On Salford Central station on the large wall mural, there is a painted image of a Class 319.
thealexweb
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A lot more than that was done. Haven't most received all their PRM mods already?
adamedwards
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Is the plan that the 323s are the all day trains, with the 319s kept on for peak period extras? I can imagine their might be services where 2 x 323 is too much in the peak but 4 not 3 cars would be needed for capacity, paritiularly where the previous trains were 2 x 2 car dmus?
This is going to sound pathetic but after years of using the Chat Moss local services, the 319s felt like luxury when they first arrived.
I suppose that goes to show what we were used to in this part of the world.
I have to agree that they've never been the most reliable and the facing seats are way too close together. I am surprised about the acceleration though. They always seemed pretty nippy on the Brighton line and that was on 750V supply. Perhaps the Northern drivers notch up gradually whilst the Brighton drivers put them on full blast from the off?
All the 319s that Northern are meant to have, have received the PRM mods. IIRC it's just one of the 319/4s which hasn't, but that was due to become a 769 so it's been drafted into normal service in the interim.
childwallblues
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Noted in Todays Railways that 323223-239 have been transferred from Longsight (LG) to Allerton.That probably accounts for so many 323s being on Allerton Depot especially on Sundays.
It would certainly be an awkward micro-fleet with high maintenance cost and limited driver rotas. There has been some discussion about a bi-mode version of the 195/331 Civity unit on here - which would be more preferable in terms of familiarity for Northern. Although they would be more expensive and are they really in it for the long-term? Doubt it.
Greybeard33
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So Northern will eventually have a fleet of 43x323s, in place of the 27x319s envisaged in the franchise agreement (5 of the original 32x319s were to be returned after the 331s were in service). And that 319 fleet was intended to furnish 6 diagrams for the Wigan to Stalybridge/Alderley Edge routes, which have not (yet) been electrified.
Even if we assume that Lostock to Wigan and Victoria to Stalybridge electrification will be completed before the end of the franchise, this will be a big uplift in EMU capacity. 129x23m vehicles instead of 108x20m - 19% more vehicles and a 37% increase in total carriage length!
I guess the plan must be for many of the 323s to operate in 6-car formations. This will require some more platform lengthening, unless they are to be retrofitted with SDO.
Even if we assume that Lostock to Wigan and Victoria to Stalybridge electrification will be completed before the end of the franchise, this will be a big uplift in EMU capacity. 129x23m vehicles instead of 108x20m - 19% more vehicles and a 37% increase in total carriage length!
I guess the plan must be for many of the 323s to operate in 6-car formations. This will require some more platform lengthening, unless they are to be retrofitted with SDO.
TheGrew
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As a Chat Moss commuter I had must first 323 experience recently and was very impressed with the acceleration vs a class 319. The 319s aren't bad units when they work (availability has been an issue!) but they don't seem particularly suited for stopping work.
Class 170101
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I didn't see if it said the 319s would be going? (and I've probably missed it)
Perhaps Class 323s to operate on troutes that support 3/6 car trains and 319s to operate on routes that support 4/8 car trains.
Perhaps Class 323s to operate on troutes that support 3/6 car trains and 319s to operate on routes that support 4/8 car trains.
childwallblues
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They were suitable for stopping work when they operated for Thameslink. Luton to Sutton comes to mind plus of course West Hampstead through the core to London Bridge.
Greybeard33
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It is in the Modern Railways article previously quoted in post #543:
https://modern-railways.keypublishi...to-retain-323s/?dm_i=4JU,6FMXB,CA2EU1,PHY67,1
Clearly this is good news, although it does lead to the question; could there be service changes to reduce DMU running under the wires to use up some of that extra capacity?
Hopefully however it's just a case of, as is often the way, that if you improve capacity you then find you need to be able to improve things further shortly afterwards. In which case if there's going to be platform lengthening at stations that they are lengthened as long as possible before being too costly to extend further (i.e. if you are going to lengthen for 6, do so for up 12 unless, say, there's something which adds a lot of cost for doing so above 9).
Shhh, your can't say that, it would go against the narrative of; only the South gets new trains and the North only gets what the South don't need any more!
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