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Question for train planners regarding clock changes

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yorkie

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If a train is running at a time when the clocks go backwards (ie, at 0200, the clocks reset to 0100), what implications are there for train planners? For example, let's say there is a train due to run usually as follows, with fictional station names:

Origin town 0055
Tiny town 0110
Big town 0230
Final town 0250

Would the train be re-timed for the day the clocks change?

If so, there are two possibilities: one would be to depart an hour later from the first two stations, and another option would be to arrive an hour earlier at the last location.

If not, would the train wait an hour at Tiny town and depart from there an hour late, or would passengers at Tiny town be expected to know that the train departs at the first 0110 of the day and not the second? If it does not wait at Tiny town, would it then wait for an hour at Big town? Or would it simply run early throughout and passengers at Big town who turn up at the advertised time simply miss the train?

If anyone is (or has been) involved in train planning, or other roles that would encounter this issue, it would be interesting to hear how you make allowances for this and what your experiences are :)
 
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tiptoptaff

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Slightly off topic, but as a resource manager, clocks going forward added an extra layer of challenge, as we had to ensure we have crews "13" hours of rest, to account for the lost hour.
 
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I wouldn't have thought there be many passenger trains rumbling around at 0159 (the first time around) on a Sunday morning.
For the few that do, eg, 9W00 0037 Three Bridges - Bedford, of the 28th October 2018 - they just run, as planned.
http://charlwoodhouse.co.uk/rail/liverail/train/14447310/28/10/18
I'm not too sure on the intricacies of the Public facing times though. The PB's on the schedule there are consistent with it simply running as planned, without clock adjustment.
 
alxndr

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Hallelujah, I'm actually off this year!

Always causes confusion with possession start times for us. They do seem to try to time them so there's only one possibility (e.g. starting 02.10 when the clocks go forward or 00.50 when the clocks go back), but this just causes arguments over what time the clocks actually change during the night.
 
js517

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What time does this bus arrive at Leeds?

upload_2019-8-16_0-11-52.png
The image shows an itinerary including a bus arriving at Leeds at 01:35 on Saturday 26th October 2019. The time is not qualified with an indication of GMT or BST.

From my limited understanding of the schedule data, the date-time format used is not capable of dealing with the ambiguity that arises for the shift from BST to GMT. In the example linked to above it appears the services which start in BST have all stop times reported in BST. What is less clear is what happens with services which start between 0100 BST and 0159 GMT.

The next replacement bus service after my example above is shown as departing at 0100 but it isn't clear which one.
 

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Class 170101

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Overnight drivers diagrams are still a problem because it adds an hour to each turn and its already over 9 hours, the diagram is bust.
 
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Bald Rick

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As I remember it, the trains always run to the timetable as it is before the clocks change; ie in effect the clock change doesn’t happen. Then on Sunday start up it reverts to the correct time.

As there are very few (if any?) all night services on a Saturday night / Sunday morning (LU excepted), it’s not an issue...

... Except for rest periods and engineering works. I have lost count of the number of times a job has overrun on the last weekend in March because the planner forgot about the clock change (despite reminders!)
 
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js517 said:
The image shows an itinerary including a bus arriving at Leeds at 01:35 on Saturday 26th October 2019. The time is not qualified with an indication of GMT or BST.
Click to expand...

The image shows a bus departing at 23:20, arriving at 01:35 and taking a time of 3 hours 15 minutes. Clearly it takes into account the change, and I'm wondering what on earth the problem is.
 
js517

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mmh said:
The image shows a bus departing at 23:20, arriving at 01:35 and taking a time of 3 hours 15 minutes. Clearly it takes into account the change, and I'm wondering what on earth the problem is.
Click to expand...

If you look at the rest of the busses running that night, you'll see that the duration is typically in the order of two hours. I think its likely that the 3 hours 15 minutes figure is incorrect.
This isn't a question of "taking into account the change" - the point is that 01:35 occurs twice on that day and it is ambiguous as to whether it refers to 01:35 BST or 01:35 GMT.

Take a look at the next bus and try to determine when it departs.
 
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mmh

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js517 said:
This isn't a question of "taking into account the change" - the point is that 01:35 occurs twice on that day and it is ambiguous as to whether it refers to 01:35 BST or 01:35 GMT.
Click to expand...

01:35 doesn't occur twice on that day, or any other day. It's almost as if we've used daylight saving time before.

js517 said:
Take a look at the next bus and try to determine when it departs.
Click to expand...

It was the last journey in the list. A bus with no changes. The previous journey included at least one bus and two changes.
 
js517

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mmh said:
It was the last journey in the list. A bus with no changes. The previous journey included at least one bus and two changes.
Click to expand...
Sorry, I should have included another screenshot here. upload_2019-8-16_1-42-31.png

mmh said:
01:35 doesn't occur twice on that day, or any other day. It's almost as if we've used daylight saving time before.
Click to expand...
I'm afraid i'll have to disagree with you there. When clocks change from BST to GMT times from 01:00 up to but not including 02:00 occur twice. The next minute after 01:59 BST is 01:00 GMT. https://www.gov.uk/when-do-the-clocks-change
 

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It appears that the 0100 departure, in screen #2 is GMT. 2 hour duration, and all that.
The 0135 arrival, in #1 is also GMT. The 3 HR 15 min journey time (or 0135 BST +1 hr if you will).
Now, all I have to do is wait till the end of October to get my hour back! ;)
 
AlbertBeale

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js517 said:
If you look at the rest of the busses running that night, you'll see that the duration is typically in the order of two hours. I think its likely that the 3 hours 15 minutes figure is incorrect.
This isn't a question of "taking into account the change" - the point is that 01:35 occurs twice on that day and it is ambiguous as to whether it refers to 01:35 BST or 01:35 GMT.

Take a look at the next bus and try to determine when it departs.
Click to expand...

London Buses have had a rule that when clocks change, night routes carry on through the night as though the clocks hadn't changed; but if the clocks have gone back they continue for an extra hour to ensure they meet up with the start of day services as they should do. It was never explicit what happened when clocks went forward, I guess there might be a period with "doubled-up" night and day services ran, with the option of phasing out the night ones earlier as convenient.

24-hour services could operate in much the same way, though in that case it would be easier - when clocks went forward - to pull some surplus "night" services from the overlap since the "day" and "night" services that were "meeting" were by definition running an identical route.
 
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