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TPE Mark 5A coaching stock progress

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tpjm

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I'm in the industry and do have a good idea of what goes on with new and existing rolling stock.

As for snags and mods surely they were mainly done before handover from CAF, other faults and failures are bound to crop up as with any new rolling stock, when actually put into passenger service, as Northern are finding out now, as we did when our new trains arrived, updates are carried out as you go.

There should have been enough crews trained by now to run a 2 train service whilst others trained and some training done on service trains. If TPE have not got enough staff to be able to do all this, who is that down to? Management are supposed to know how much staff is required and how long training plans are going to be.
Ok problems with the CAF sets doesn't help but stop making false promises and false introductory dates.

I have no problem with the staff busting a gut to bring these trains into traffic, good on them, for trying as hard as they can but something is wrong somewhere as it's all taking way too long.
Management have obviously taken on too much with 3 new types and it's the passengers and staff probably who are suffering with daily cancellations, short forms, terminating trains part way to destination.

I for one being Pro-railway wanted this to work but we are a long way off yet it would seem.

Good luck to all the men & women in the frontline trying to make this possible, i think they need it.

I don't doubt that you have a 'good idea', but being on the front line or in an office doesn't necessarily result in the same experience and knowledge as someone who is on the team delivering that specific type of rolling stock. If there's one thing to take away from the Nova fleet introduction, it's that every fleet, even from the same manufacturer with the same base parts, has significantly different challenges, and not just from an engineering/technical perspective. The delivery of Class 802 is currently running on schedule and without a hitch, with Class 397 not far behind. The MkVa project is completely different to the other fleets and has encountered considerable delays to the programme, therefore it isn't a case of "TPE's inept management", more, "unforeseen and difficult to resolve issues with the rolling stock and the manufacturer".

When the trains were initially accepted from CAF there were still a great deal of snags and mods required. This was a tactical decision in order to expedite driver training on the assumption that by the time enough crew were trained, CAF would have turned out enough 'good' sets for the initial ones to go back for mods. I'm not sure this has moved at quite the expected pace so this (and losing training days due to various infrastructure issues around Crewe) has caused delays to training, not, as you infer, due to 'not releasing enough people'.

We could talk all day about the many hundreds of small delays inflicted on this project, many of which have been discussed in this thread already, but in reality, they are being worked through as quickly as possible, most without ever even receiving any visibility from the outside world. Keep the faith - these trains are close and they will come.
 
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Ben Bow

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I don't doubt that you have a 'good idea', but being on the front line or in an office doesn't necessarily result in the same experience and knowledge as someone who is on the team delivering that specific type of rolling stock. If there's one thing to take away from the Nova fleet introduction, it's that every fleet, even from the same manufacturer with the same base parts, has significantly different challenges, and not just from an engineering/technical perspective. The delivery of Class 802 is currently running on schedule and without a hitch, with Class 397 not far behind. The MkVa project is completely different to the other fleets and has encountered considerable delays to the programme, therefore it isn't a case of "TPE's inept management", more, "unforeseen and difficult to resolve issues with the rolling stock and the manufacturer".

When the trains were initially accepted from CAF there were still a great deal of snags and mods required. This was a tactical decision in order to expedite driver training on the assumption that by the time enough crew were trained, CAF would have turned out enough 'good' sets for the initial ones to go back for mods. I'm not sure this has moved at quite the expected pace so this (and losing training days due to various infrastructure issues around Crewe) has caused delays to training, not, as you infer, due to 'not releasing enough people'.

We could talk all day about the many hundreds of small delays inflicted on this project, many of which have been discussed in this thread already, but in reality, they are being worked through as quickly as possible, most without ever even receiving any visibility from the outside world. Keep the faith - these trains are close and they will come.

I think most people have at least some understanding of how difficult the Nova 3 project has been. That in itself is a cause of frustration as the Nova 3's were the "quick fix" to the capacity problem. As has been mentioned before, a more open and honest approach from TPE, both externally, and internally, would have helped - they have been quick to promote the "successes" (and why not), but retreating into the bunker when setbacks and delays have occurred, leading to unverified assumptions and speculation filling the information "vacuum".
 

nedchester

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Well then I'm sure your colleagues over at TPE would love to hear from you.

Quite happy where I am thanks.

The point is that you shouldn't cancel services to run a 'special' and if you do only in extreme circumstances. You 'could' get away with cancelling a train between Manchester and York (as there are plenty of alternatives) but leaving the Scarborough line with a big gap in the middle of the day at the height of summer is poor.

TPE could have even run a shadow service between York and Scarborough (plenty of white space on the graph there!)
 

LittleAH

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I think most people have at least some understanding of how difficult the Nova 3 project has been. That in itself is a cause of frustration as the Nova 3's were the "quick fix" to the capacity problem. As has been mentioned before, a more open and honest approach from TPE, both externally, and internally, would have helped - they have been quick to promote the "successes" (and why not), but retreating into the bunker when setbacks and delays have occurred, leading to unverified assumptions and speculation filling the information "vacuum".

How could they be more open?

They have commercial agreements and relationships to look after - you can't expect them to come out openly and slag CAF off for being at fault for delivering a sub-par set of carriages. From what I understand, talking to someone at TPE, the legal stuff is set to rumble on.

Then you've got internal information that is going out to their staff getting leaked out on here and social media. If their staff want more information, perhaps they shouldn't spray it about on the internet when told in confidence. And yes, I appreciate that I myself have benefited from knowing a few folk at TPE.

And finally, you can't go on and slag off TPE for giving dates and not meeting them then subsequently slag them off for not giving dates of when these trains are about to enter service. Hypocrisy, Irony, whatever you want to call it. The job TPE are trying to do is bring in 3 fleets and they don't need the distraction of mis-information and nosey rail enthusiasts.
 

Spartacus

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Quite happy where I am thanks.

The point is that you shouldn't cancel services to run a 'special' and if you do only in extreme circumstances. You 'could' get away with cancelling a train between Manchester and York (as there are plenty of alternatives) but leaving the Scarborough line with a big gap in the middle of the day at the height of summer is poor.

TPE could have even run a shadow service between York and Scarborough (plenty of white space on the graph there!)

White space on the graph is useless when you’ve no spare crew. Hardly the busiest time for visitors to the coast anyway, mid-week, middle of the day. No matter, I’m sure you’re right about everything and never need to take anything on board from people better placed and TPE can’t have thought that this was the only possible option and never looked at any alternatives at all, no..... :s
 

Jamesrob637

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Only bad thing is 09:56 is the first off peak service so some might've had advance tickets...
 

PennineSuperb

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From inside knowledge.
The sets were accepted for training. They are not yet fit for passenger service. When they are they will begin to carry passengers when a safe amount of train crew are qualified to operate the train.
This includes taking trains to/from depots, in service runs, and recovery if one fails.
The trains will not run in passenger service at the minute to replace a 185 and it therefore requires to replace a service train due to unavailability of additional paths over the Pennines. I do agree this is a poor decision on TPE's behalf, but when Drivers / Guards are marked up to Pass Out / Consolidate on these runs and they are rostered to it is becomes time critical.
It would also be poor practice to mark up a Conductor Instructor to work a service with a pass out on a Conductor required as the Instructor might need to remove the Conductor from train working. This would likely cause further cancellation. Therefore a further Conductor is required to be physically rostered to work the train.
 

Goldie

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And finally, you can't go on and slag off TPE for giving dates and not meeting them then subsequently slag them off for not giving dates of when these trains are about to enter service. Hypocrisy, Irony, whatever you want to call it. The job TPE are trying to do is bring in 3 fleets and they don't need the distraction of mis-information and nosey rail enthusiasts.

You absolutely can criticise TPE for both of those things. Giving dates and not sticking to them, and refusing to give any dates at all are both symptoms of poor managagement. What TPE should be doing is giving dates that are realistic, and if some unforeseen problem prevents those dates from being met, mitigating the impact. Failing to run even the service that existed before the new fleet procurement was started is not mitigating the impact.

It is important not to make the mistake of assuming that enthusiasts on here criticising TPE are the only people affected. People (including me, my family and friends out here in Scarbados) use the York - Scarborough line for work and for pleasure, and TPE have been treating the York - Scarborough leg of the service as optional for months.
 

LittleAH

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You absolutely can criticise TPE for both of those things. Giving dates and not sticking to them, and refusing to give any dates at all are both symptoms of poor managagement. What TPE should be doing is giving dates that are realistic, and if some unforeseen problem prevents those dates from being met, mitigating the impact. Failing to run even the service that existed before the new fleet procurement was started is not mitigating the impact.

It is important not to make the mistake of assuming that enthusiasts on here criticising TPE are the only people affected. People (including me, my family and friends out here in Scarbados) use the York - Scarborough line for work and for pleasure, and TPE have been treating the York - Scarborough leg of the service as optional for months.

No they're not. The first is, the second is once bitten twice shy. Bringing trains into service is not as easy as X date. Not one single operator has brought in new trains on time for donkeys years.

And to suggest TPE have been treating that leg of the line as optional for months is quite a bold statement, especially when Network Rail have been responsible for many of the issues TPE have had in the past few months. Doesn't that leg also get extra services on Saturdays? Not exactly 'optional' is it?
 
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From inside knowledge.
The sets were accepted for training. They are not yet fit for passenger service. When they are they will begin to carry passengers when a safe amount of train crew are qualified to operate the train.
This includes taking trains to/from depots, in service runs, and recovery if one fails.
The trains will not run in passenger service at the minute to replace a 185 and it therefore requires to replace a service train due to unavailability of additional paths over the Pennines. I do agree this is a poor decision on TPE's behalf, but when Drivers / Guards are marked up to Pass Out / Consolidate on these runs and they are rostered to it is becomes time critical.
It would also be poor practice to mark up a Conductor Instructor to work a service with a pass out on a Conductor required as the Instructor might need to remove the Conductor from train working. This would likely cause further cancellation. Therefore a further Conductor is required to be physically rostered to work the train.

^^ This is the only answer you need to read regarding what happened (and whats happening) - Ive made bold the very important part!

As has been said - hell of a lot of work is going into getting us drivers trained up on them asap! - it WILL happen and soon too (I dont know what i am or am not allowed to say really?). Unfortunately, things do happen last minute which can royally screw up a whole weeks worth (if not more) of plans. Its desperately frustrating for everyone i assure you. Remember its not as easy as sticking a crew member on for training (guards included). If a crew member was taken off for this and then subsequently their whole booked jobs worth of trains were cancelled there would also be uproar - so how does the company win that?. Its a slow process at the moment - but i assure you it will all start to ramp up over the next few weeks.
 

Ben Bow

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Without "slagging" anybody off, it seems today's run on 5E31 is currently experiencing "technical difficulties".
 

Jamesrob637

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Fez14

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Without "slagging" anybody off, it seems today's run on 5E31 is currently experiencing "technical difficulties".
53 Minutes late as it stands

Was early into Rainhill and suddenly lost 8 minutes by time it left Lea Green
 

sjpowermac

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Without "slagging" anybody off, it seems today's run on 5E31 is currently experiencing "technical difficulties".
Thank you for the shout. It looks like 5E31 is making its way back to Longsight. Currently at Deansgate.
 

Goldie

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No they're not. The first is, the second is once bitten twice shy. Bringing trains into service is not as easy as X date. Not one single operator has brought in new trains on time for donkeys years.

And to suggest TPE have been treating that leg of the line as optional for months is quite a bold statement, especially when Network Rail have been responsible for many of the issues TPE have had in the past few months. Doesn't that leg also get extra services on Saturdays? Not exactly 'optional' is it?

The second is poor management too. It indicates that TPE still does not have a sufficiently robust plan for introducing these trains to be confident about a date.

Regarding the service, you should ask my friend Lissa's view. She commutes Monday to Friday from Scarbs. Her daily routine now regularly includes standng on the platform at York watching delay turn to cancellation, taxis back to the coast and occasionally unplanned stays in York hotels. Extra services on one of the days that she doesn't need to rely on TPE don't help her much. Again, it's important to remember that a cancellation affects actual people, with actual plans made on the basis that the railway will work as advertised.
 

JonathanH

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LNER cancelled a Leeds to Kings Cross return working (1145 off Leeds / 1503 off Kings Cross) to allow Azuma training and cancelling the Liverpool to Scarborough train seems to be no different but, given trains only run hourly between York and Scarborough it would seem appropriate to still try and run something from York to Scarborough and back in the two hour gap.
 

gimmea50anyday

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I'm on the 10:25 Liverpool to Newcastle from Huddersfield and it's delayed. Due to this 5E31 training run I think! However it's only 3 coaches and packed

Looks like that is 9E10, 11:52 off Leeds...

Edit:- lots piled off at Leeds. However despite removing labels and making announcements where seats are, the crowds don't want to leave the front carriage. Looks like a fair few piling on at York tho
 
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LittleAH

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The second is poor management too. It indicates that TPE still does not have a sufficiently robust plan for introducing these trains to be confident about a date.

Regarding the service, you should ask my friend Lissa's view. She commutes Monday to Friday from Scarbs. Her daily routine now regularly includes standng on the platform at York watching delay turn to cancellation, taxis back to the coast and occasionally unplanned stays in York hotels. Extra services on one of the days that she doesn't need to rely on TPE don't help her much. Again, it's important to remember that a cancellation affects actual people, with actual plans made on the basis that the railway will work as advertised.

No it doesn't. As has already been stated on this thread, TPE accepted some Mk5 sets that weren't up to the standard that is desired to help train drivers, depot staff etc. CAF are responsible for this, which is why TPE haven't been accepting anymore Mk5 sets. It wouldn't surprise me if CAF are in breach of their contract and there are financial penalties about to be incurred. It's the manufacturers fault.

As for your friend... I am also a TPE commuter. I was on a train that was turned back to Huddersfield the other day, thanks to Network Rail and a possession over run. There have been numerous incidents between Huddersfield and Leeds over the last few months with track and signal failures - this is not the responsibility of the TOC.
 

gimmea50anyday

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LNER cancelled a Leeds to Kings Cross return working (1145 off Leeds / 1503 off Kings Cross) to allow Azuma training

No they didn't, this was a pre-planned and agreed with DfT set of cancellations to take a MK4 diagram out to improve maintenance. Despite this, cl 90's and a EMT HST was frequently drafted in to cover for non-availability of the 91's
The use of the paths however cannot go unnoticed, however a lot of the paths used on the ECML are additional paths between Peterborough and Newcastle although they often do find themselves delayed behind late running services
 
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Jamesrob637

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Looks like that is 9E10, 11:52 off Leeds...

Edit:- lots piled off at Leeds. However despite removing labels and making announcements where seats are, the crowds don't want to leave the front carriage. Looks like a fair few piling on at York tho

Yes I'm currently at York. A shiny new silver train has just pulled out
 

nedchester

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Regarding the service, you should ask my friend Lissa's view. She commutes Monday to Friday from Scarbs. Her daily routine now regularly includes standng on the platform at York watching delay turn to cancellation, taxis back to the coast and occasionally unplanned stays in York hotels. Extra services on one of the days that she doesn't need to rely on TPE don't help her much. Again, it's important to remember that a cancellation affects actual people, with actual plans made on the basis that the railway will work as advertised.

Yes some seem to forget that but TPE make decisions in their ivory towers to cancel trains at the drop of a hat with apparently little regard for the people who pay the fares.
 
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