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Feet on seats

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Camden

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It's truly a miracle you haven't been beaten to a pulp yet.
Or maybe you live in a seriously rough place!!! I can count on one hand the number of times I've had to intervene myself, and 4/5 to a polite, "can you take your feet down please" has resulted in nothing more than them taking their feet down and looking a bit sheepish.
 
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bramling

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It has happened.

I make clear I'm unimpressed by their determined and knowing lack of consideration. They continue on their journey, I on mine. I can sense they are childishly trying to "assert" and pretend they're not bothered, but I remain wherever I am sat, resolutely unimpressed. They might not have taken their feet down on that occasion, for some weird "save face" type reason, but there's at least a small chance they'll think twice on their next journey.

More often than not, though, people take their feet down, even if some do tell me to mind my own business beforehand.

Has it ever occurred to you that they may genuinely be not bothered by your views on the matter? Being 100% honest, I wouldn’t be.
 

Journeyman

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Or maybe you live in a seriously rough place!!! I can count on one hand the number of times I've had to intervene myself, and 4/5 to a polite, "can you take your feet down please" has resulted in nothing more than them taking their feet down and looking a bit sheepish.

I've worked in public-facing roles long enough to know that people have been stabbed for far less than what you're advocating here. You also come across as somewhat pompous and self-righteous, which I can assure you is not an endearing quality, and not something you want to make a habit of around people with knives.
 

Journeyman

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Would any of us on here have put Clandon down as a rough place?!

Well, quite. Many moons ago I was a booking clerk at Effingham Junction, and believe it or not, I actually had cause to call the police several times in the year I worked there.
 

Camden

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Has it ever occurred to you that they may genuinely be not bothered by your views on the matter? Being 100% honest, I wouldn’t be.
What they/you think is of no relevance to my request issue. My request is based on law and a want for consideration for each other. How you choose to live your own life is for your own conscience to wrestle with.
 

Bromley boy

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However, I think a key point is that it's those who break the rules that have to justify themselves. Not me, on here, to those unreasonably irked by someone who chooses not to just sit by while people do things they shouldn't.

They don’t have to justify themselves to you at all, you have absolutely no authority over them.

When I say "obviously dangerous", I mean there is a detectable danger. No detectable danger = I assume there is none.

Honestly? In the middle of a knife crime epidemic, this is your approach?!

If someone is a conductor and they won't tell a commuter or a youngster to take their feet off the seat while they're checking their ticket, they're in the wrong job.

Incorrect.

There is a good reason why enforcement officers wear stab vests and travel in groups. As I pointed out previously guards work alone, are given training on conflict avoidance and are instructed not to put themselves in harm’s way. If they are ignoring an individual there may well be a good reason why.

By poking your nose into a situation you know nothing about (and has nothing to do with you) you are only going to make their job more difficult.

The better approach might be to complain in general terms about anti social behaviour to the TOC and demand that enforcement officers are brought in.
 
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Esker-pades

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I would never put my shoes on the seats. But, especially for longer trips, I take my shoes off and put my socked feet on seats (space permitting - obviously).

I did once have a guard ask me to take my socked feet off the seats. I complied, although I didn't understand why.
 

Intermodal

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I usually ask people to remove their feet from seats. I won't if any of the following are true:

  • They have taken their shoes off, which I personally see as entirely acceptable if the train is not busy. I want people to be comfortable.
  • They have their feet on a bag which is on a seat, or have taken other precautions to avoid soiling the seats.
  • The most controversial one: they are a group of youths who I have internally assessed as unlikely to listen. While a poster above has suggested this means I may be in the wrong job - I would respectfully disagree. I have no issue confronting anyone about any issue, and indeed when I started in the role I would immediately ask anyone to remove their feet from the seats, regardless of if they were dressed in a suit and tie or looked like they'd just robbed an old lady. The problem is that experience shows me that as soon as I move away from the area they will put their feet right back on the seats. What am I going to do about that? Am I going to delay the train and try and eject them? Do they look under 18, in which case I am unwilling to eject them at an unstaffed station regardless and it would be an empty threat if I attempted it? Is it just going to create an unnecessary confrontation on the train where nothing will be achieved and leaves everyone involved, including observers, with a sour taste and a sense of a negative atmosphere? Whilst people do not want feet on seats, I think people would prefer their train to be on time rather than have their guard pick an argument with a bunch of kids about it, delay the train, and still have feet on the seats. It's not to say that I will not ask them in passing as I check their ticket, but I'm not going to make it my days mission to ensure their feet are removed from the seats for the journey.

The bigger problem in my opinion is dogs on seats. Dog owners are militant and see absolutely no problem with their little pride and joy sitting on a seat exactly as they do at home. They will get quite upset when you ask them to place their dog on the floor. "Nobody is sitting here", "She is well behaved, they always sit on the seat at home" or even worse "If I put them down, they will just get back up". People generally know that their feet should not be on seats, as evidenced by people removing them as they hear me walking down the train. Nobody ever does that with a dog. The very same people that would complain if there are two human feet on seats would have no problem with four dog feet on a seat. I feel sorry for people who have pet allergies who have to sit in that seat after them.
 

Camden

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They don’t have to justify themselves to you at all
I'm in the right, they're in the wrong. What they *have* to do, I have no control over, but I can ask :)

You seem to have no trouble poking your nose in, and your tone suggests you think I should have to justify my actions to you.

Maybe you've been told to get your feet of the seats, or told to turn your music down at some point, but it's sufficient for me to know that I'm on the side of right in this.

I'm sorry that my dear old London is in the grip of a knife "epidemic" (otherwise known as lawlessness). However did we get there...
 

Journeyman

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  • The most controversial one: they are a group of youths who I have internally assessed as unlikely to listen. While a poster above has suggested this means I may be in the wrong job - I would respectfully disagree. I have no issue confronting anyone about any issue, and indeed when I started in the role I would immediately ask anyone to remove their feet from the seats, regardless of if they were dressed in a suit and tie or looked like they'd just robbed an old lady. The problem is that experience shows me that as soon as I move away from the area they will put their feet right back on the seats. What am I going to do about that? Am I going to delay the train and try and eject them? Do they look under 18, in which case I am unwilling to eject them at an unstaffed station regardless and it would be an empty threat if I attempted it? Is it just going to create an unnecessary confrontation on the train where nothing will be achieved and leaves everyone involved, including observers, with a sour taste and a sense of a negative atmosphere? Whilst people do not want feet on seats, I think people would prefer their train to be on time rather than have their guard pick an argument with a bunch of kids about it, delay the train, and still have feet on the seats. It's not to say that I will not ask them in passing as I check their ticket, but I'm not going to make it my days mission to ensure their feet are removed from the seats for the journey.
I think you've summed up the issues involved very nicely there, and explained why staff will deal with some instances of antisocial behaviour but not others. Your employer will back you up to a large extent, but fat lot of good that is if the situation has already escalated to the point of violence, and you're unconscious on the floor for your troubles.

The one I've highlighted is, I think, the most important point you've made. Conflict hangs in the air for a long time afterwards, and the few shouting matches I've ended up being involved in or in close proximity to have left me feeling horribly on edge and stressed for hours afterwards. I can live without that kind of aggro, really, so as a member of the public I absolutely won't get involved in something minor, and if it's bad, I'll let the police know.
 

Bromley boy

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I'm in the right, they're in the wrong. What they *have* to do, I have no control over, but I can ask :)

Lee Pomeroy was in the right. Where is he now?

You seem to have no trouble poking your nose in, and your tone suggests you think I should have to justify my actions to you.

On the contrary, this is an online discussion forum. By posting your views on here it is reasonable to assume you are happy to discuss them!

If you want to go about ordering total strangers around and chastising them for behaviour that doesn’t meet with your approval, fill your boots! Although it may not be the wisest course of action for the reasons posted above over and over again.

I do take exception to your comment that guards are not fit to be doing the job just on the basis occasional incidents you’ve witnessed as an outsider, and have no knowledge of.

Maybe you've been told to get your feet of the seats, or told to turn your music down at some point, but it's sufficient for me to know that I'm on the side of right in this.

Nope I’ve just lived in London long enough to see how quickly things can turn seriously nasty.

Despite your name I can only assume you don’t actually live in Camden!
 

bramling

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I usually ask people to remove their feet from seats. I won't if any of the following are true:

  • They have taken their shoes off, which I personally see as entirely acceptable if the train is not busy. I want people to be comfortable.
  • They have their feet on a bag which is on a seat, or have taken other precautions to avoid soiling the seats.
  • The most controversial one: they are a group of youths who I have internally assessed as unlikely to listen. While a poster above has suggested this means I may be in the wrong job - I would respectfully disagree. I have no issue confronting anyone about any issue, and indeed when I started in the role I would immediately ask anyone to remove their feet from the seats, regardless of if they were dressed in a suit and tie or looked like they'd just robbed an old lady. The problem is that experience shows me that as soon as I move away from the area they will put their feet right back on the seats. What am I going to do about that? Am I going to delay the train and try and eject them? Do they look under 18, in which case I am unwilling to eject them at an unstaffed station regardless and it would be an empty threat if I attempted it? Is it just going to create an unnecessary confrontation on the train where nothing will be achieved and leaves everyone involved, including observers, with a sour taste and a sense of a negative atmosphere? Whilst people do not want feet on seats, I think people would prefer their train to be on time rather than have their guard pick an argument with a bunch of kids about it, delay the train, and still have feet on the seats. It's not to say that I will not ask them in passing as I check their ticket, but I'm not going to make it my days mission to ensure their feet are removed from the seats for the journey.

The bigger problem in my opinion is dogs on seats. Dog owners are militant and see absolutely no problem with their little pride and joy sitting on a seat exactly as they do at home. They will get quite upset when you ask them to place their dog on the floor. "Nobody is sitting here", "She is well behaved, they always sit on the seat at home" or even worse "If I put them down, they will just get back up". People generally know that their feet should not be on seats, as evidenced by people removing them as they hear me walking down the train. Nobody ever does that with a dog. The very same people that would complain if there are two human feet on seats would have no problem with four dog feet on a seat. I feel sorry for people who have pet allergies who have to sit in that seat after them.

The point about dogs is well made. It’s a major issue, especially on preserved railways. I’ve seen some really nasty spats over dogs on such railways, either when the presence of a dog upsets someone else or when the owner refuses to take their dog off a seat. Look on Tripadviser for any preserved railway and it won’t be long before someone’s complaining about dogs, from one side of the fence or the other.

This isn’t confined to railways, last year I witnessed a full-scale pub punch up which started over someone rudely complaining about the lack of a dog bowl, this was in Beddgelert of all places so not exactly a rough area!

Having said all this I’ve had my own dogs in the past and it is nice to see dogs being treated as part of the family, but IMO what people choose to do in their home is one thing but equally people should be able to expect to sit down on a preserved railway seat without getting covered in dog hairs. Again, not worth getting into a major drama about.
 

Rob F

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Most staff will be aware that a middle-aged man/young female argument could result in life-changing allegations being made against the middle-aged man.
Just for the record and not making any personal judgements at all, the girl was well dressed and perfectly polite and amiable and the train manager was a middle aged lady.
 

bramling

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What they/you think is of no relevance to my request issue. My request is based on law and a want for consideration for each other. How you choose to live your own life is for your own conscience to wrestle with.

I’m wondering just how based on law your request actually is.

The byelaws don’t appear to specifically refer to feet on seats (apologies if I’m missing anything). They do refer to soiling of the train, but an interpretation of that could well be that this only applies if the shoes are dirty. So in theory one wonders if I could take a pair of shoes freshly out of the box, and not be breaking any byelaw.

Meanwhile the byelaws refer to interfering with the comfort and convenience of others. One could argue that subjecting someone to a lecture could fall foul of that byelaw.
 

DarloRich

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i notice that as usual the tutting is in full force but the gumption to challenge bad behaviour seems to be lacking. How many posters will challenge this behaviour when they see it?
 
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muz379

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I've made it plain who I'd tick off for standing idly by, and when I wouldn't. If someone is a conductor and they won't tell a commuter or a youngster to take their feet off the seat while they're checking their ticket, they're in the wrong job.
A view you are of course entitled to , but lets face it the only person really in a position to make a judgement on someones suitability for their role is their manager or TOC . Not some stranger on an internet forum who has clearly got a bee in his bonnet over one particular issue and has completely lost sight of the bigger picture .

As Intermodal has explained perfectly well , there are particular reasons why certain situations are dealt with in the way they are .

I will ask you this directly though , lets say there is a group of youths on the train , feet on seats . The conductor asks them to take their feet off the seats and they just give said conductor some abuse and refuse . What then ? Are you happy for the train to be late for the police to be summoned to deal with such a minor issue ? In some instance if they are minors the police wont want to take responsibility for them anyway and they will be left on the train feet still on seats . In some areas trains would rarely if ever move if this policy was adopted .
 

adamello

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one way to reduce the issue - complain enough and you might end up with this

the-prototype-led-lighting.752.502.s.jpg
 

geoffk

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Rob F - no, you are not becoming a grumpy old git as it is a disgusting thing to do. For all we know, these people have just come from a toilet where the floor is covered in urine - as it was in one station I recently visited and refused to go in. Furthermore, the seats are likely to deteriorate quicker than if seats are kept clear of feet. Dogs should also not be allowed onto seats or tables. Staff should be required to tell people off for doing this.

I would also like to suggest that antimacassars should be fitted on all seats so that the head area does not become grimy. This would surely save money in the long run as the seats would not need replacing so frequently.
I once heard a staff member ask a young woman to put her dog on the floor, not on the seat. She grumbled a bit then put a blanket on the seat, with the dog on it.
 

londonbridge

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It's definitely not acceptable, it's simply that most people don't say anything.

Much of the country's problems stem from it being so passive and willing to put up with inconsiderate behaviour.
!

Yesterday at work there were two girls of around eight or nine running up and down the aisles. Remember I'm in a convienience branch, not a larger supermarket, so more potential for an accident. The mother wasn't saying anything and no one else was challenging them, it wasn't until I shouted from behind the till "Calm down girls, it's not a playground in here" that she started telling them to 'stop it and come here NOW', etc, etc.
 

bramling

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Yesterday at work there were two girls of around eight or nine running up and down the aisles. Remember I'm in a convienience branch, not a larger supermarket, so more potential for an accident. The mother wasn't saying anything and no one else was challenging them, it wasn't until I shouted from behind the till "Calm down girls, it's not a playground in here" that she started telling them to 'stop it and come here NOW', etc, etc.

The thing that I have an issue with is that there’s a fine line between “don’t do that it’s against the law”, and “don’t do that it’s legal but *I* don’t like it so stop it”, the latter often dressed up as the first hoping that the person on the receiving end doesn’t know any different. I’m sure many people will have experienced this when parking, for example, and there’s a whole thread about recent issues at Acton Bridge station which is a case in point.

Part of the reason we have laws is that they’re passed by a parliament who (supposedly!) represent the wishes and best interest of the population of a whole, rather than the individual likes, dislikes, whims, preferences and prejudices of some. Likewise why law enforcement should be in the hands of people who have more authority, knowledge and training than the average joe public.

It wouldn’t be a very nice society if everyone went round challenging each other all the time, for a start a lot would be based on ignorance and selfishness rather than legal reality.

The only time I really like this “calling others out” is when there’s an immediate risk to the safety of others, or where someone is in a genuine position of authority, for example a member of staff with direct responsibility for safety or preservation of assets, or of course a police officer.

Then there’s of course the practical reality that it’s inviting conflict, which is dangerous when there’s no place of safety, and can make life much more difficult for the people who are properly trained and equipped to deal with such issues. It’s no coincidence that the railway staff here are attempting to urge caution, and with good reason - they will know about real situations where things have turned nasty, either through first-hand experience or through dealing with the consequences.
 

bb21

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I usually ask people to remove their feet from seats. I won't if any of the following are true:

  • They have taken their shoes off, which I personally see as entirely acceptable if the train is not busy. I want people to be comfortable.
  • They have their feet on a bag which is on a seat, or have taken other precautions to avoid soiling the seats.
  • The most controversial one: they are a group of youths who I have internally assessed as unlikely to listen. While a poster above has suggested this means I may be in the wrong job - I would respectfully disagree. I have no issue confronting anyone about any issue, and indeed when I started in the role I would immediately ask anyone to remove their feet from the seats, regardless of if they were dressed in a suit and tie or looked like they'd just robbed an old lady. The problem is that experience shows me that as soon as I move away from the area they will put their feet right back on the seats. What am I going to do about that? Am I going to delay the train and try and eject them? Do they look under 18, in which case I am unwilling to eject them at an unstaffed station regardless and it would be an empty threat if I attempted it? Is it just going to create an unnecessary confrontation on the train where nothing will be achieved and leaves everyone involved, including observers, with a sour taste and a sense of a negative atmosphere? Whilst people do not want feet on seats, I think people would prefer their train to be on time rather than have their guard pick an argument with a bunch of kids about it, delay the train, and still have feet on the seats. It's not to say that I will not ask them in passing as I check their ticket, but I'm not going to make it my days mission to ensure their feet are removed from the seats for the journey.
Hear hear.

When on a train, my responsibility is to ensure that everyone gets where they need to go safely and with minimal inconvenience. That includes myself.

There is no way I will put myself in any danger, regardless of how much tolerance a passenger has for taking risks. If they think I am unfit for the job, then boohoo. If I end up getting assaulted, let alone stabbed, the train will be cancelled (or at least severely delayed) and no one will thank me for it, over a trivial matter like this.

Likewise I politely ask people to take their feet off seats where I deem appropriate, and find myself actually doing it quite often, however I also let many occurrences go for various reasons. I find positive reinforcement quite effective in most cases too, eg. "ladies and gentlemen, there is plenty of discarded newspaper around the carriages, so if you need to rest your feet on the seat opposite you, please put down a newspaper first or take your shoes off." I tend to find it is people in their 50s and older who get far more stroppy and answer back than teenagers, even chavvy ones generally follow these requests without blinking if asked in the right manner.

Ultimately I am not law enforcement. Getting people to behave is not my responsibility as long as they are not presenting a danger to anyone onboard.
 

BeijingDave

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First time poster, expat in China.

It's definitely not acceptable, it's simply that most people don't say anything.

Much of the country's problems stem from it being so passive and willing to put up with inconsiderate behaviour.

I would say people are still much more likely to challenge bad individual behaviour in the UK than in Asia. However, this leads to nasty escalation sometimes, and for that reason I think fewer people are doing it nowadays.

In Asia, people give dirty looks for bad behaviour but won't challenge each other publicly, so unless an official sees something and intervenes, nothing will get done.

Regarding feet on seats, I only really have a problem if it is shoes, because they might have all sorts of debris on the bottom. A more annoying problem to me (in both UK and Asia) is a general acceptance by many that it's okay to play movies or voice messages from your mobile phone without headphones.
 

D6975

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Many moons ago, Bath road used to have a senior conductor called Eddie who was a 'desperate' gripper. I once saw him produce a toolkit and dismantle the lock on an out of use toilet to check there was no-one in there ticket dodging. But relevant to this topic is that he once encountered a dog on a seat in the 1st class of one of the Pullman rakes that used to go to Paignton on a summer Saturday. He issued the owner with a hefty cleaning bill.
 

Bromley boy

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The aggressive beggar threatening people with violence was more of a problem.

Something I’ve noticed is how prevalent aggressive begging has become over the last few years, with beggars often swearing or threatening when ignored or politely refused.
 

Stigy

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They don’t have to justify themselves to you at all, you have absolutely no authority over them.



Honestly? In the middle of a knife crime epidemic, this is your approach?!



Incorrect.

There is a good reason why enforcement officers wear stab vests and travel in groups. As I pointed out previously guards work alone, are given training on conflict avoidance and are instructed not to put themselves in harm’s way. If they are ignoring an individual there may well be a good reason why.

By poking your nose into a situation you know nothing about (and has nothing to do with you) you are only going to make their job more difficult.

The better approach might be to complain in general terms about anti social behaviour to the TOC and demand that enforcement officers are brought in.
I was in an enforcement type role until recently (done about 12 years in the job). We didn’t wear stab vests and often worked alone. I think common sense plays a part in this to a large extent. If I encountered people with their feet on the seats I’d say something like, “can you drop your feet down please mate/chaps/whatever term was most relevant to them”). I’ve never had any issues and I think Guards should feel comfortable in doing the same. I’ve only seen people get the hump when staff have been rude or abrupt in asking the question. Obviously.

I mentioned common sense; If there’s a large group of lads larking around and being generally anti-social, I’d rather concentrate on more pressing issues of their language and out people in the carriage. If it meant letting their feet on the seat slide so as not to just keep on at them about all the offences their committing and concentrating on the most serious, then so be it. If a guard witnessed this, I’d never expect them to get involved and just text or call BTP and generally show a presence.

In general terms, I really don’t think we are at the stage in terms of violent crime which means rail staff should be afraid to politely ask a customer to take their feet off the seats.
 
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