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West Coast Partnership: Awarded to First Trenitalia

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Aictos

Aictos

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StaffsWCML said:
To be fair I have had dealing with First Management (we are only talking about the management here) so can speak from experience, some of them are very nice people but as managers they are incompetent; hence the business results and performance. I would tell them that face to face because its true, the figures speak for themselves, they will never drive for improvement or become better if they do not realise there performance is not excellent at the levels required, and managers need to be a the top of their game; else what hope do the front line staff have. This kind of molly coddling is why we consistently accept and protect mediocracy in this country - in case we offend someone.

It makes no odds anyway, I expect some of the much better managers at Virgin will be jettisoned in the name of business rationalisation and we will see more of the same old formula that has consistently delivered at best mediocre results from First. First are very unlikely to get rid of their own except in extreme circumstances.
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I’m sorry but to tar all management with the same brush is uncalled for, I’ve worked for a few under First and a number actually were very supportive of their staff and very competent at their job.

Indeed one was very supportive of me and my needs during a very difficult time with the response that if I needed any time off then I was merely to call them anytime even at midnight and they would do their best to support me.

Another was supportive in helping me be qualified in multi skills.

Yes there might be a few who shouldn’t be a manager but the ones I worked under were nothing more then supportive of me at all times.

There probably is some Virgin managers who could be called incompetent too!
 
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Robertj21a

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It will be interesting to see if David Martin (ex Arriva) has an impact in due course.
 
S

StaffsWCML

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Aictos said:
I’m sorry but to tar all management with the same brush is uncalled for, I’ve worked for a few under First and a number actually were very supportive of their staff and very competent at their job.

Indeed one was very supportive of me and my needs during a very difficult time with the response that if I needed any time off then I was merely to call them anytime even at midnight and they would do their best to support me.

Another was supportive in helping me be qualified in multi skills.

Yes there might be a few who shouldn’t be a manager but the ones I worked under were nothing more then supportive of me at all times.

There probably is some Virgin managers who could be called incompetent too!
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Again though the companies performance and results speak for the overall quality of top level management. I am sure there are some good individuals without a doubt.

Once again I don't doubt there are some incompetent Virgin managers, although as a whole the top level are delivering results for the business and their customers as the most highly rated TOC, its a case if it isn't broke don't fix it.

At the end of the day if the managers are so good at First why is the company haemorrhaging money like not tomorrow, from the top down it is generally ran in an incompetent manner.

What I am saying is they have taken over a profitable (beyond their wildest dreams franchise), if they continue to use their tried and tested method they will fail. That is it - what First do currently is not good enough.
 
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StaffsWCML

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Clip said:
And yet.....




Not an axle has turned under First Group so its pretty poor form to write them off before thats happened - never mind what has gone on elsewhere...
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It depends if they change the whole ethos of the company - is that likely probably not.

We will see in due course.

If they start a cull of the largely successful Virgin Management staff (Results) and back office functions at Crewe and Birmingham and replace them with their own in house teams (Failing) we will know they are going for more of the same mediocracy.
 
C

Clip

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StaffsWCML said:
It depends if they change the whole ethos of the company - is that likely probably not.

We will see in due course.

If they start a cull of the largely successful Virgin Management staff (Results) and back office functions at Crewe and Birmingham and replace them with their own in house teams (Failing) we will know they are going for more of the same mediocracy.
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But my point still stands in that you dont know what they will do yet you are pretty happy to castigate them before they have even sat in Bransons warm office chair
 
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Clip

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StaffsWCML said:
Again though the companies performance and results speak for the overall quality of top level management. I am sure there are some good individuals without a doubt.

Once again I don't doubt there are some incompetent Virgin managers, although as a whole the top level are delivering results for the business and their customers as the most highly rated TOC, its a case if it isn't broke don't fix it.

At the end of the day if the managers are so good at First why is the company haemorrhaging money like not tomorrow, from the top down it is generally ran in an incompetent manner.

What I am saying is they have taken over a profitable (beyond their wildest dreams franchise), if they continue to use their tried and tested method they will fail. That is it - what First do currently is not good enough.
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Well maybe with a shake up at board level that will then trickle down because its obvious the group needs to reorganise so pretty much wait and see rather than repeatedly state the same thing over and over again. If they fail then you can come back to me and say 'I told you so' but not until then.
 
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playboy81

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1) Will they retain the weekday services in First class?

Apart from the few services that offer Pullman dining, it’s weekend style every day on GWR.

2) Will the new Pendolino interiors be as bland as their new trains on the Great Western line? (Baring in mind that the refurbished interiors on Transpennine Express are really nice)

3) what name will First go for?

Given the trend to return to heritage names or styles in the last few years (GWR, London North Western and now EMR) West Coast Railway WCR or Maybe simply “West Coast”?
 
Class 466

Class 466

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playboy81 said:
1) Will they retain the weekday services in First class?

Apart from the few services that offer Pullman dining, it’s weekend style every day on GWR.

2) Will the new Pendolino interiors be as bland as their new trains on the Great Western line? (Baring in mind that the refurbished interiors on Transpennine Express are really nice)

3) what name will First go for?

Given the trend to return to heritage names or styles in the last few years (GWR, London North Western and now EMR) West Coast Railway WCR or Maybe simply “West Coast”?
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LMS Railway?
 
ashkeba

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playboy81 said:
3) what name will First go for?

Given the trend to return to heritage names or styles in the last few years (GWR, London North Western and now EMR) West Coast Railway WCR or Maybe simply “West Coast”?
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Why is it always prewar or interwar heritage? Could they be daring and go for "Intercity West Coast" and bring back the swift businesslike livery - a TOC equivalent of whatever station it was caused controversy by using a heritage grant to reintroduce Network South East colours?
 
A

ainsworth74

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playboy81 said:
2) Will the new Pendolino interiors be as bland as their new trains on the Great Western line?
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Doubtful. Those interiors are to the DfT's specification and I would imagine any Pendolino interior refurbishment will be to the operators!
 
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HowardGWR

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Clip said:
But my point still stands in that you dont know what they will do yet you are pretty happy to castigate them before they have even sat in Bransons warm office chair
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The notion that the gentleman has ever spent any time actually in an office amuses me. To run a marketing company you just need a comfortable pad and a (smart) telephone and the ability to convince a load of young things to do your bidding.
 
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James90012

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So much negativity in this thread.

1. The DfT do not get involved with TOC-specified rolling stock, end of. DfT influence ends with the capacity requirements set out at ITT stage.
2. Each franchise is a completely different business to the other, so drawing parallels generally doesn't mean anything. TPE for example has faced significant challenges including delivering a DfT-mandated train service pushing the network to its limits, delays from rolling stock manufacturers and infrastructure delays. GWR has been on endless short term direct awards which do not create the environment to invest. SWR has clearly been a challenge, but some of the issues regarding performance are out of their control, and indeed performance was declining at the end of SWT - read the Holden report. Hull Trains have suffered severe rolling stock problems, but have been resourceful in sourcing a temporary HST solution.
3. The front line people who run the trains today for Virgin, will run the trains tomorrow for First.
4. We are now in a 10-day standstill after which I would expect more details of FT's plans, dismissing that 'First won't do this or that' is completely unfounded speculation. 5. This is a premier Intercity franchise which has been let competitively, revenue is highly discretionary so if the service worsens, passengers will vote with their wallets and travel by alternative means.

The repetitive copy and paste bashing of First, and for some reason Abellio which is not related at all to WCP, is tiresome and frankly isn't about WCP being awarded, it's just a personal vent.
 
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The Ham

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James90012 said:
The repetitive copy and paste bashing of First, and for some reason Abellio which is not related at all to WCP, is tiresome and frankly isn't about WCP being awarded, it's just a personal vent.
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Indeed, a TOC (or new rolling stock, or new service, or new line) should be judged on how it performs. By all means be willing to say "will they do X?" because that's what they've done on another franchise. However to assume that they are always going to make the same mistakes on every franchise, when such mistakes may not be possible. It could even be that decision may be alerted by their business partner's influence or even by DfT's interference.
 
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StaffsWCML

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James90012 said:
So much negativity in this thread.

1. The DfT do not get involved with TOC-specified rolling stock, end of. DfT influence ends with the capacity requirements set out at ITT stage.
2. Each franchise is a completely different business to the other, so drawing parallels generally doesn't mean anything. TPE for example has faced significant challenges including delivering a DfT-mandated train service pushing the network to its limits, delays from rolling stock manufacturers and infrastructure delays. GWR has been on endless short term direct awards which do not create the environment to invest. SWR has clearly been a challenge, but some of the issues regarding performance are out of their control, and indeed performance was declining at the end of SWT - read the Holden report. Hull Trains have suffered severe rolling stock problems, but have been resourceful in sourcing a temporary HST solution.
3. The front line people who run the trains today for Virgin, will run the trains tomorrow for First.
4. We are now in a 10-day standstill after which I would expect more details of FT's plans, dismissing that 'First won't do this or that' is completely unfounded speculation. 5. This is a premier Intercity franchise which has been let competitively, revenue is highly discretionary so if the service worsens, passengers will vote with their wallets and travel by alternative means.

The repetitive copy and paste bashing of First, and for some reason Abellio which is not related at all to WCP, is tiresome and frankly isn't about WCP being awarded, it's just a personal vent.
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1. The DfT specify the rolling stock, this is incorrect.
2. We cant keep making excuses for poor performance, this is why things are so pathetic. We are rewarding failure by giving contracts to the biggest yes men, the biggest risk takers, this is not good for passengers. If a company has the same managers it is likely to perform the same.
3. The front line people will be the same but the managers will be different, this will have an impact.

The point about First and Abellio is that they keep getting contracts awarded despite delivered nothing but mediocracy. Abellio has been useless on all its franchises yet keeps getting more of the pie.

Anyway what's done is done now and I am sure as you say people will vote with their feet. It is just a shame to lose one of the better performing operators because they wouldn't accept an unquantified pensions liability shift for future and historic contributions. I am intrigued given the financial precariousness of First that they have taken this on...….hang on....perhaps that's is why they are financially in a precarious position! Who'd have though it!
 
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James90012 said:
So much negativity in this thread.
The repetitive copy and paste bashing of First, and for some reason Abellio which is not related at all to WCP, .
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Probably not, but the widely reported boardroom & financial turmoil at First combined with Boris’s likley reluctance to annoy his pal across the pond by giving a major contract to the Chinese, can’t be completely dismissed as total conspiracy at this stage either
 
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hwl

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The Ham said:
Indeed, a TOC (or new rolling stock, or new service, or new line) should be judged on how it performs. By all means be willing to say "will they do X?" because that's what they've done on another franchise. However to assume that they are always going to make the same mistakes on every franchise, when such mistakes may not be possible. It could even be that decision may be alerted by their business partner's influence or even by DfT's interference.
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Previous performance of an owning group at different franchises can sometimes be down to DfT constraining things so much that no one could succeed from a passengers view point.
 
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mikey9

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Birkonian said:
I took the Thello sleeper in June. Thello is owned by Trenitalia and it was was the worst train journey of my life and one the worst experiences I've ever had. Air con wasn't working in our compartment during the June European heatwave. I have a photo of the temperature monitor in the corridor showing 37.4 degrees Celsius. Staff didn't care and Thello haven't replied to my complaint within the specified 30 days. They haven't responded to my compensation request for late arrival in accordance with the conditions either. Hope West Coast do better.
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Just to contrast 100% - two weeks ago - we took the Trenitalia Rome to Sicily sleeper - 2 adjacent compartments - family of four. Clean - tidy, comfortable - air con working, breakfast croissant and peach juice. My wife suggested she had the best night's sleep - only awoken at 5am by one son who i had tipped off we would be shunted onto the train ferry....
The only negative was a 15 minutes early arrival in Catania Central - and a 10 minute early departure!! (Stops to set down only....nearly missed getting off).

Other Trenitalia services were excellent too - sitting at 300kmh (188 Rees Moggs per hour) for long stretches - comfortable, clean and the whole service seemed to be working well. Friendly staff, reservations worked, plenty space, good aircon etc, etc....Walk up fares looked pretty good too...and a choice of four classes - we were in 4th class which was as good as any we standard class users in the UK get.

(Just goes to show how a single perspective can't be relied on as representative....)
 
EE Andy b1

EE Andy b1

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So let's embrace First Treitalia with open arms and hope they continue with the generally good job done by Virgin Stagecoach over the last 22 years. Hard act to follow!
 
LNW-GW Joint

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StaffsWCML said:
1. The DfT specify the rolling stock, this is incorrect.
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DfT did not specify the original Pendolinos (or Voyagers), though they did procure the 106 extra Pendolino vehicles in 2012 instead of leaving it to Virgin.
They also prevented any significant service changes or extra rolling stock procurement during the 4 direct awards since 2012.
The recent modest Pendolino upgrades were indeed influenced by the DfT (eg branding, and converting 1 coach in 9-car trains from first to standard).
The DfT does sometimes set constraints on new TOC stock (eg GWR's 802s seating), but in general does not get involved in the detail of train specs.
Its main interest is in capacity and frequency, and the number of seats offered at peak times into major cities.
The DfT (via HS2 Ltd) is indeed specifying and procuring HS2 stock - First Trenitalia will have no say, except possibly over branding.
 
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Master29

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RailWonderer said:
This comes as a great shame to me. Virgin is easy to criticise because we haven’t known anything else since 1996. They provide a great standard of service and there was little for me to complain about and much of the hate I heard was picking holes. The delays are mostly not in their control and the only problem I can point out was the sometimes harsh nature of on train and gate line staff for tickets and the sometimes rude catering staff (that one was in my experience)
Farewell VT, obituary over.
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You have our sympathy, from a regular GWR user.
telstarbox said:
Hopefully this means some decent Italian cuisine in First Class :)
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Don`t count on that. Cardboard sandwiches beckon for you matey.
Justapunter said:
Still, Trenitalia has 4th class.
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So do we on GWR. It`s called standard class on an 800.
 
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Red1980 said:
tell that to the rest of them! I wouldn't give the British public anything new or sacred. Whinge and whinge about the state of the railway etc yet treat what's there like dirt.
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I assume most of us are part of the British public. Most of us treat trains and other public property with respect. Been reading the Daily Mail have you?
 
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urbophile

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LNW-GW Joint said:
Why? 95% of our car industry is in international hands.
Many UK companies are foreign owned.
It looks like British Steel (which makes nearly all Network Rail's rail) will be owned by a Turkish company soon.
And conversely we own many companies in other countries (eg Rolls Royce owns MTU of Germany which supplies diesel power packs for Hitachi bi-modes).
It's called free trade and inward investment and generally considered a good thing.
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Difference: many of the rail companies are not just foreign owned but state-owned (by other states). Why is it OK for our railways to be run by other countries' governments and not by our own?
 
LNW-GW Joint

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David Emmott said:
Difference: many of the rail companies are not just foreign owned but state-owned (by other states). Why is it OK for our railways to be run by other countries' governments and not by our own?
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Foreign governments don't run any of our railways.
The German/Italian/French/Dutch/Hong Kong transport ministries have no say in what their TOC arms do in the UK.
Our DfT specifies everything to do with UK franchises, and there is a level playing field between all the TOCs, state-backed or not.
UK TOCs can bid for and operate in the EU (for now), such as National Express in Germany, so it's not a one-way street.
All EU TOCs operate as commercial entities at arms length from their governments, as part of the single market and competition rules.
Yes, the governments as owners take the financial risk/benefit of operating in the UK, but the German and Dutch governments, at least, have had to fork out funds to keep their UK subsidiaries going.
The German government has forced DB to sell Arriva to concentrate on its domestic network - we'll see if a UK buyer shows up.
 
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Camden

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LNW-GW Joint said:
Foreign governments don't run any of our railways.
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Splitting hairs a bit there. Fact is directly or indirectly they are the beneficiaries, and as such our railways in part are run by companies on their behalf.

I'm not aware of any foreign government being in hoc to us. The walk away if it gets too much nature of our system seems all win win for the TOCs.
 
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