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EU Referendum: The result and aftermath...

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Killingworth

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A thought occurs.
Wouldn't we have been better going for Brexit In Name Only in the first place, and then negotiating to remove the bits that we've decided that we don't want later?
That way, disruption would be minimal at the start of the process, rather than the risk of cataclysmic catastrophe when leaving without a deal.

Possibly, but it would have been a lot better if we'd tried to understand how and why the EU came about and then been rather more constructive in working in collaboration with like minded countries to develop it to both benefit ourselves and most of Europe. Sadly we've been a thorn in the side of the EU from very early days.

There's a lot wrong with it and every country agrees. Getting consensus on anything is incredibly difficult. 27 have agreed on one thing. That's a very rare event. Britain has achieved a minor miracle in uniting them all. If we'd spent the same energy working to achieve reforms it would have been so much more productive of the time spent.

The thought that 27 having agreed a common front will back down in any material way shows how out of touch the Brexiteering campaigners have been. The tragedy is that they seem to have convinced a majority that running full tilt into a brick wall or over a cliff is a sensible plan.

We are where we are. Tin hats on, parachutes ready, prepare to get digging to get out of this mess.
 
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DarloRich

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This is true but misses the systemic problem with how that process works, starting with the selection of commissioners. The end result is that the UK (and everyone else in the EU) is told what to do by a bunch of people fundamentally opposed to democracy - "Technocrats" - and who are completely convinced of their own right to decide things as well as their own infallibility. Even if it means killing people to support their views (statistically killing them, of course - just letting some pensioners and sick people die, and maybe raising the suicide rate among young people. You know - non-specific and very much non-culpable deaths of poor people).

The question of leaving the EU is, to me, much more about what a completely shambolic mess it is than anything else. This is not the sort of organisation anyone should join; and having joined and made some failed efforts here and there to reform it over decades there is no sane reason to remain unless you believe that all human life and moral value comes down to how well the banks are doing this month.

Leaving will be hard going, and the EU will make it as hard as possible because otherwise all the people running it may have to find work somewhere else (at which point the mass unemployment they brushed off as just one of those things you have to put up with to build utopia will look a lot less trivial) and *their* pensions will be under threat.

But we knew all this when we voted to leave and nothing has changed since then.

this, sadly, is the kind of silliness Brexit and the rise of the kippers has delivered. There is some helpful information here for people willing to read it: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36429482

For those unwilling or unable to read: EU commissioners are proposed by national governments ( you know, the one we vote for every 5 years) and selected by the president of the European Commission. The President of the Commission is elected by the European Council. This body is made up of the heads of state or leaders of the member states. Guess what? We voted for our PM in the general election who then sits on that body and proposes his or her candidate.

As if the Kippers would either accept an elected commission head ( imagine the whining about soferinty) or actually vote for one! The argument set out above is completely disingenuous and simply shows to my mind willfull ignorance of the processes of the EU.
 

krus_aragon

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This is true but misses the systemic problem with how that process works, starting with the selection of commissioners. The end result is that the UK (and everyone else in the EU) is told what to do by a bunch of people fundamentally opposed to democracy - "Technocrats" - and who are completely convinced of their own right to decide things as well as their own infallibility.
Is that the selection of the Commissioners by the governments of the member states (one per state), or the fact that the EU Parliament has to approve or reject them as a single block, instead of being allowed to reject some but not others?

I'm not sure which of these states are letting their governments select hated technocrats, but it seems their electorates are letting them do so. Mind you, our elected leaders in the UK appoint plenty of unelected spokespeople and special advisors that have had a strong influence within our own government (e.g. Alastair Campbell, Andy Coulson, Dominic Campbell...)
 

YorkshireBear

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This is true but misses the systemic problem with how that process works, starting with the selection of commissioners. The end result is that the UK (and everyone else in the EU) is told what to do by a bunch of people fundamentally opposed to democracy - "Technocrats" - and who are completely convinced of their own right to decide things as well as their own infallibility. Even if it means killing people to support their views (statistically killing them, of course - just letting some pensioners and sick people die, and maybe raising the suicide rate among young people. You know - non-specific and very much non-culpable deaths of poor people).

The question of leaving the EU is, to me, much more about what a completely shambolic mess it is than anything else. This is not the sort of organisation anyone should join; and having joined and made some failed efforts here and there to reform it over decades there is no sane reason to remain unless you believe that all human life and moral value comes down to how well the banks are doing this month.

Leaving will be hard going, and the EU will make it as hard as possible because otherwise all the people running it may have to find work somewhere else (at which point the mass unemployment they brushed off as just one of those things you have to put up with to build utopia will look a lot less trivial) and *their* pensions will be under threat.

But we knew all this when we voted to leave and nothing has changed since then.

As opposed to the UK government?
 

Nagora

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Is that the selection of the Commissioners by the governments of the member states (one per state), or the fact that the EU Parliament has to approve or reject them as a single block, instead of being allowed to reject some but not others?
I personally feel the whole idea of the commission is outdated. And the inability of the parliament to introduce primary legislation makes it a bit of a joke.

The ideal result, for me, of Brexit would be a collapse of the EU followed by everyone involved getting together to rebuild it along properly democratic lines. Failing that - sod 'em and leave them to it but for me Europe is not the EU. The EU is an organisation and a deeply flawed one which happily and cynically wraps itself in the European Ideal while backing private interests over people.

I'm not sure which of these states are letting their governments select hated technocrats, but it seems their electorates are letting them do so. Mind you, our elected leaders in the UK appoint plenty of unelected spokespeople and special advisors that have had a strong influence within our own government (e.g. Alastair Campbell, Andy Coulson, Dominic Campbell...)
As opposed to the UK government?
We don't need a European government of wealthy people and their cronies, we've already got one of our own! The difference is that it's our fault and our responsibility to do something about them. I can vote anyway I like at the EU elections but it has no real effect that I can see, especially when things get tough.

There's too much tsk tsking about the "wrong" people getting elected and not enough engaging with the reasons people are making those choices. I think that as long as we allow our high-level political conversations be all about economics and whether we'll be better off tomorrow then normal people will be more easily swayed by shallow "I'm going to make X great again" demagogues who's entire offering is basically a get-rich-quick con.
 

Nagora

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Guess what? We voted for our PM in the general election who then sits on that body and proposes his or her candidate.
I don't know which country you live in but in the UK we don't vote for the PM.

There is a style argument on the Remain side that says that "some unaccountability is the same as any amount of unaccountability" and then tries to justify ever-increasing distances between the electorate and political power by pointing to the existing distance. It's not a valid or rational argument.
 

kermit

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So, who could Westminster, and the wider country, unite around or at least live with as interim PM of an emergency No Deal blocking government?
Or is the absence of any clear answer to that question symptomatic of the neverending quagmire we are in?
Think it'll be all over if No Deal proceeds on Oct 31st? Think again!!
 

DarloRich

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I don't know which country you live in but in the UK we don't vote for the PM.

There is a style argument on the Remain side that says that "some unaccountability is the same as any amount of unaccountability" and then tries to justify ever-increasing distances between the electorate and political power by pointing to the existing distance. It's not a valid or rational argument.

We do, to all intents and purposes, vote for the PM in this country; as you well know. BTW it seems you have no response to my point that you have no real idea how the structures and processes of the EU work.
 
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krus_aragon

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I personally feel the whole idea of the commission is outdated. And the inability of the parliament to introduce primary legislation makes it a bit of a joke.

The ideal result, for me, of Brexit would be a collapse of the EU followed by everyone involved getting together to rebuild it along properly democratic lines. Failing that - sod 'em and leave them to it but for me Europe is not the EU. The EU is an organisation and a deeply flawed one which happily and cynically wraps itself in the European Ideal while backing private interests over people.
Fair enough. I doubt that our leaving will actually cause a collapse and rebuilding of the EU, but as you said, that's an "ideal result" for you.

Myself, I'm still disappointed at the "renegotiation" that Cameron did. What (apparently) started out as a discussion about EU-wide reform ended up in a small list of special dispensations for the UK. I was angrier at that result than the outcome of the subsequent referendum.

I can vote anyway I like at the EU elections but it has no real effect that I can see, especially when things get tough.
I've felt my vote has more effect in EU elections than Westminster ones, because of the use of a proportional system rather that first-past-the-post. I agree that there's a disconnect between what parties talk about during an EU election (generally domestic issues) and what is actually within the EU Parliament's remit. That's something that happens throughout the EU.

In past years, I've read more about the early history of the USA, which has some parallels with the Europe of today (see the periodic talk of a "United States of Europe", for example). The issue of where power is held (at the state or federal level) has been a problem there to this day, but the consensus has changed due to events in history (external aggressors, civil war, etc). Incidentally, states had the option to nominate their US Senators (rather than hold elections) until 1913, much like our EU commissioners.

I'd recommend the BBC radio series The invention of the USA to any readers interested in a good primer on what happened over there.
 

Nagora

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I've felt my vote has more effect in EU elections than Westminster ones, because of the use of a proportional system rather that first-past-the-post. I agree that there's a disconnect between what parties talk about during an EU election (generally domestic issues) and what is actually within the EU Parliament's remit. That's something that happens throughout the EU.
Well I grew up in Northern Ireland where PR is the norm. I agree that the 1st-past-the-post system leaves a lot to be desired, although it leaves some room for independents campaigning on local issues which a badly-designed PR system can block out.
 

krus_aragon

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Well I grew up in Northern Ireland where PR is the norm. I agree that the 1st-past-the-post system leaves a lot to be desired, although it leaves some room for independents campaigning on local issues which a badly-designed PR system can block out.
I'm in Wales, so I've got the privilege of bouncing between pass-the-post, past-the-post plus additional member top-up, and party list systems, as well as having used (and counted votes for) the single transferable vote system while at university. Not everyone has been as lucky as us! :)
 

anme

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This is true but misses the systemic problem with how that process works, starting with the selection of commissioners. The end result is that the UK (and everyone else in the EU) is told what to do by a bunch of people fundamentally opposed to democracy - "Technocrats" - and who are completely convinced of their own right to decide things as well as their own infallibility. Even if it means killing people to support their views (statistically killing them, of course - just letting some pensioners and sick people die, and maybe raising the suicide rate among young people. You know - non-specific and very much non-culpable deaths of poor people).

The question of leaving the EU is, to me, much more about what a completely shambolic mess it is than anything else. This is not the sort of organisation anyone should join; and having joined and made some failed efforts here and there to reform it over decades there is no sane reason to remain unless you believe that all human life and moral value comes down to how well the banks are doing this month.

Leaving will be hard going, and the EU will make it as hard as possible because otherwise all the people running it may have to find work somewhere else (at which point the mass unemployment they brushed off as just one of those things you have to put up with to build utopia will look a lot less trivial) and *their* pensions will be under threat.

But we knew all this when we voted to leave and nothing has changed since then.

1. Please provide some actual evidence, examples and statistics to back up these claims, and explain what decisions the British government, perhaps led by Boris Johnson, might make differently.

2. You completely fail to understand the decision making process in the EU. Please study this very simple diagram - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europ.../File:European_Union_legislative_triangle.svg
(FYI the European Council is made up of the leaders of the 28 EU countries).
 

edwin_m

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This is true but misses the systemic problem with how that process works, starting with the selection of commissioners. The end result is that the UK (and everyone else in the EU) is told what to do by a bunch of people fundamentally opposed to democracy - "Technocrats" - and who are completely convinced of their own right to decide things as well as their own infallibility. Even if it means killing people to support their views (statistically killing them, of course - just letting some pensioners and sick people die, and maybe raising the suicide rate among young people. You know - non-specific and very much non-culpable deaths of poor people).
The Westminster government is elected by a system that frequenty gives absolute power to a party receiving well under 50% of the vote, and who can choose to ignore the interests of large chunks of the population in order to keep their own voting base on side. Our current Prime Minister was elected by the self-selecting 0.1% of the population who are Conservative party members, many of whom probably voted most recently for the Brexit party. Our current goverment is only in power because it relies on the DUP, who happen to be the largest party in Northern Ireland under the same votiing system but don't represent the majority view there to remain in the EU. How is any of that remotely democratic?
The question of leaving the EU is, to me, much more about what a completely shambolic mess it is than anything else. This is not the sort of organisation anyone should join; and having joined and made some failed efforts here and there to reform it over decades there is no sane reason to remain unless you believe that all human life and moral value comes down to how well the banks are doing this month.
I'd like to declare independence from Westminster on the same basis.
But we knew all this when we voted to leave and nothing has changed since then.
Face it. You've been scammed by a gang of self-intersted charlatans who were prepared to lie through their teeth to get what they wanted.
 

Mvann

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And you think that the least popular leader in Europe who put forward the 2nd least popular mp in Germany as Eu president and has a Spanish Mp who is known to be racist as foreign policy lead any better?
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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Well I grew up in Northern Ireland where PR is the norm. I agree that the 1st-past-the-post system leaves a lot to be desired, although it leaves some room for independents campaigning on local issues which a badly-designed PR system can block out.

Over the border in Eire, do they have proportional representation by means of a single transferable vote?
 

krus_aragon

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Over the border in Eire, do they have proportional representation by means of a single transferable vote?

The Republic of Ireland has 39 multi-member constituencies, each with between three and five seats, elected using the single transferable vote system.

The Republic of Ireland / Éire were an early adopter of the STV system, nearly a century ago. I've seen many an election poster in Dublin urging people to vote '1, 2, 3' for all of that party's candidates.
 

Nagora

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1. Please provide some actual evidence, examples and statistics to back up these claims
You can go and research what effect the EU policy that crushed Greece had on their death rates, their hospitals and of course the massive rise in youth unemployment (which reached and remains at 40%) and the lack of concern in Frankfurt over it for yourself; it's all well documented along with similar effects in Italy and Spain. Start with Eurostat and work out. I've not time to do your entire political and economic education for you.

, and explain what decisions the British government, perhaps led by Boris Johnson, might make differently.
Again, this is just "two wrongs make a right" dressed up as an argument. If you don't like what the British government does, then you can vote to change it.

2. You completely fail to understand the decision making process in the EU. Please study this very simple diagram - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europ.../File:European_Union_legislative_triangle.svg
That diagram shows exactly the problem I referred to - primary legislation comes down from the commission to parliament. The labelling of it as a "triangle" is nonsense - it's a waterfall.

Legislation should - must - come *up* from parliament and be passed onto the commissioners who are given the responsibility of feeding it back to their countries for implementation, probably with some degree of back and forth in the way the Lords can amend the Commons. At the moment the EU is set up with the Lords in charge and the Commons reduced to amendment, albeit with more power to completely block.

Face it. You've been scammed by a gang of self-intersted charlatans who were prepared to lie through their teeth to get what they wanted.
Rain is wet, grass is green. If you think the EU is able to deliver self-interested-charlatan-free politics then I suggest that you be physically restrained from exercising the vote until you sober up.

The electorate is responsible for educating itself. I don't give a toss about Farage and his bunch. I've watched and researched the EU and its workings for years before giving up on them and their fake ideals and flag-waving. A pox on both their houses.

We are stuck with the worst of both worlds at the moment: we can't make any meaningful reform happen in the EU and while we're in the EU there's little point in trying to fix the domestic political constitution.
 

anme

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You can go and research what effect the EU policy that crushed Greece had on their death rates, their hospitals and of course the massive rise in youth unemployment (which reached and remains at 40%) and the lack of concern in Frankfurt over it for yourself; it's all well documented along with similar effects in Italy and Spain. Start with Eurostat and work out. I've not time to do your entire political and economic education for you.

I don't particularly agree with what was done to Greece (although the Greek government must also take a lot of responsibility). But disagreeing with certain actions of an institution is different to believing that we don't need that institution. Do you agree with everything the British government has ever done? If not, do you think we should get rid of the British government?

Again, this is just "two wrongs make a right" dressed up as an argument. If you don't like what the British government does, then you can vote to change it.

No. We need to judge by results. The British government takes part in appointing the European Commission.

That diagram shows exactly the problem I referred to - primary legislation comes down from the commission to parliament. The labelling of it as a "triangle" is nonsense - it's a waterfall.

Legislation should - must - come *up* from parliament and be passed onto the commissioners who are given the responsibility of feeding it back to their countries for implementation, probably with some degree of back and forth in the way the Lords can amend the Commons. At the moment the EU is set up with the Lords in charge and the Commons reduced to amendment, albeit with more power to completely block.

I don't think you understand how the British government works. Very little legislation originating in the house of commons becomes law. Most of it comes from the government, which has to pass it through parliament for approval and amendment - so quite similar to the EU process.

Comparing the European Commission to the house of lords is wrong. The European Commission is more like the government of the UK (please don't try too hard to pick holes in the analogy - it's not perfect). It proposes most of the legislation that becomes enacted into law. Who appoints the European Commission? The elected governments of the EU member states, and the elected European Parliament. It's hard to see how this is undemocratic.

We could consider a directly elected European Commission. But European governments tend not to like the idea, as it would create an alternative power-base to themselves, perhaps of a different political colour. The current system keeps the EU more under the control of the member states. An elected Commission would be more independent of the member states. You can make arguments for or against either approach, but I suspect europhobes would hate the elected system even more.
 
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nidave

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You can go and research what effect the EU policy that crushed Greece had on their death rates, their hospitals and of course the massive rise in youth unemployment (which reached and remains at 40%) and the lack of concern in Frankfurt over it for yourself; it's all well documented along with similar effects in Italy and Spain. Start with Eurostat and work out. I've not time to do your entire political and economic education for you.

Again, this is just "two wrongs make a right" dressed up as an argument. If you don't like what the British government does, then you can vote to change it.

That diagram shows exactly the problem I referred to - primary legislation comes down from the commission to parliament. The labelling of it as a "triangle" is nonsense - it's a waterfall.

Legislation should - must - come *up* from parliament and be passed onto the commissioners who are given the responsibility of feeding it back to their countries for implementation, probably with some degree of back and forth in the way the Lords can amend the Commons. At the moment the EU is set up with the Lords in charge and the Commons reduced to amendment, albeit with more power to completely block.

Rain is wet, grass is green. If you think the EU is able to deliver self-interested-charlatan-free politics then I suggest that you be physically restrained from exercising the vote until you sober up.

The electorate is responsible for educating itself. I don't give a toss about Farage and his bunch. I've watched and researched the EU and its workings for years before giving up on them and their fake ideals and flag-waving. A pox on both their houses.

We are stuck with the worst of both worlds at the moment: we can't make any meaningful reform happen in the EU and while we're in the EU there's little point in trying to fix the domestic political constitution.
Do you work for the express. You spout a load of rubbish and soundbites with no facts to back anything up.
 

Nagora

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I don't particularly agree with what was done to Greece (although the Greek government must also take a lot of responsibility). But disagreeing with certain actions of an institution is different to believing that we don't need that institution. Do you agree with everything the British government has ever done? If not, do you think we should get rid of the British government?
Sometimes, yes. That's sort of what elections are for.

No. We need to judge by results.
OK. Do you think that the results of how the economic crisis was handled are good? Bear in mind that things are so bad that the IMF are openly talking about outlawing cash to allow banks to levy an income tax to stay afloat. Or that the ECB's interest rates are still negative and probably about to get moreso - something we were told was an emergency measure, what, 10 years ago? And then there's that 39.something % youth unemployment rate in Greece and other very high levels in other countries which represent now people who are 30 years old and have never had a job?

Things are not good and are only kept from looking as bad as they are by printing massive amounts of money and pushing it 75 and even 100 years down the road while central banks call 2% inflation "stable prices" and care not a jot about the fact that they're doing everything they can to discourage people saving for their futures. I know that this stuff applies to more than the EU, but at the moment I see no way of breaking out of the pack as long as we are shackled by people like Mark Carney who's only goal in life is to be feted by his peers.

I don't think you understand how the British government works. Very little legislation originating in the house of commons becomes law. Most of it comes through the government, which has to pass it through parliament for approval and amendment.
While that is true, a lot of major legislation has its ultimate source in manifestos, so it's not quite as dictatorial as you make it sound. Of course, there are many "self-intersted charlatans who were prepared to lie through their teeth to get what they wanted", so it's hardly perfect. Less so in the wake of the Lib Dem's "reforms" to parliament which gave us fixed-terms and made it very hard to shift a government that digs its heels in.

Comparing the European Commission to the house of lords is wrong. The European Commission is more like the government of the UK (please don't try too hard to pick holes in the analogy - it's not perfect). It proposes most of the legislation that becomes enacted into law. Who appoints the European Commission? The elected governments of the EU member states, and the elected European Parliament. It's hard to see how this is undemocratic.
The rubber-stamping of the selected commissioners by the EP isn't a terribly active ingredient in the recipe.

The broader answer to your point however is that any representative government is less democratic than a direct "Athenian" system - many Americans will tell you proudly that their country is not a Democracy but a Republic. No one who's studied Athenian history in the so-called Golden Age would be likely to defend their system but at the same time the more indirect the link between people and representative with power the more problematic things become and the less the advantages of a republic are visible. In particular, there is more risk there is of "representative capture" where the people supposedly working in the organisation start to work FOR the organisation because the only people they have contact with are in there. Anyway. I've stuff to do but I'll leave this bit at that point - the EU's actual practical structure does not lend itself to reminding the people in power that there is a world outside, or even a world outside the world outside where they work.

We could consider a directly elected European Commission. But European governments tend not to like the idea, as it would create an alternative power-base to themselves, perhaps of a different political colour. The current system keeps the EU more under the control of the member states. An elected Commission would be more independent of the member states. You can make arguments for or against either approach, but I suspect europhobes would hate the elected system even more.
An elected system would have some legitimacy at least. Obviously there'd be a lot of other things that would have to change too to make it work; they're not going to happen.
 

Enthusiast

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The UK jointly decides certain things with other European countries,

No it doesn't (as has been adequately explained by Nagora).

Whatever machinery the EU utilises, it is a fact that to satisfy the political requirements of 28 very disparate nations is impossible. This particularly affects the UK. Since majority voting was introduced in the late 80s the UK has voted against an EU legislative proposal 70 times. On all 70 occasions the vote was carried. The UK has been on the losing side on formal votes in The Council almost three times as often as the next unlucky loser. The EU simply does not work for the UK. Why is this? Is the UK contingent in Brussels/Strasbourg (the circus moves once a month to a duplicate setting at a cost of around £150m per annum) particularly obstructive or intransigent? I think not. The reason that the EU27 vote against the UK's wishes so frequently is that the interests and ambitions of the UK are fundamentally different to those of the other members. We simply don't fit in.

I am not at all misled by the popular press as to how the EU works. I'm perfectly aware of its structure and workings. There is no need to strip apart the decision making process that affect the few examples I cited. There is also no need to suggest that the UK "has influence" over those decisions because it has one Commissioner (of 28) and 12% of the MEPs. It doesn't. UK governments have successively abrogated their responsibilities on a cumulative basis over a wide range of policy areas that are now effectively outside the UK Parliament's control. It has sub-contracted the business of running the country in those respects to unelected officials and foreign MEPs (who, themselves, have precious little influence anyway). To determine just how far this process has gone you only have to listen to the dire warnings of the cataclysmic catastrophe that awaits if we should leave properly. If they are to be believed, the UK is unable to properly function outside a bloc with federal ambitions to become a state in ts own right. No country should be is such a parlous position.
 

najaB

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Legislation should - must - come *up* from parliament and be passed onto the commissioners who are given the responsibility of feeding it back to their countries for implementation, probably with some degree of back and forth in the way the Lords can amend the Commons. At the moment the EU is set up with the Lords in charge and the Commons reduced to amendment, albeit with more power to completely block.
There's nothing inherently better with a bottom up vs a top-down-with-block approach. In either case, legislation (or directives) won't be passed without the agreement of the majority of the lower house/chamber being in agreement.
 

EM2

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Again, this is just "two wrongs make a right" dressed up as an argument. If you don't like what the British government does, then you can vote to change it.
No I can't. All I can do is vote to change my MP, and even then, if I live in a safe seat my vote is almost useless.
 
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Esker-pades

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This is true but misses the systemic problem with how that process works, starting with the selection of commissioners. The end result is that the UK (and everyone else in the EU) is told what to do by a bunch of people fundamentally opposed to democracy - "Technocrats" - and who are completely convinced of their own right to decide things as well as their own infallibility. Even if it means killing people to support their views (statistically killing them, of course - just letting some pensioners and sick people die, and maybe raising the suicide rate among young people. You know - non-specific and very much non-culpable deaths of poor people).

The question of leaving the EU is, to me, much more about what a completely shambolic mess it is than anything else. This is not the sort of organisation anyone should join; and having joined and made some failed efforts here and there to reform it over decades there is no sane reason to remain unless you believe that all human life and moral value comes down to how well the banks are doing this month.

Leaving will be hard going, and the EU will make it as hard as possible because otherwise all the people running it may have to find work somewhere else (at which point the mass unemployment they brushed off as just one of those things you have to put up with to build utopia will look a lot less trivial) and *their* pensions will be under threat.

But we knew all this when we voted to leave and nothing has changed since then.
Others have pointed out why this comment is incorrect, so I don't have to bother. Instead, I'll come at it from another angle.

But, the EU being 'bad' or 'not good' doesn't mean leaving it will make the UK better off. I am yet to see any concrete evidence that the UK will be better off after it has left. There is plenty that suggests that the UK will be (much) worse off though.
 

krus_aragon

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Since majority voting was introduced in the late 80s the UK has voted against an EU legislative proposal 70 times. On all 70 occasions the vote was carried.
This phenomenon isn't unique to the UK and the EU. A certain Parliamentary vote in 1957 saw every Welsh MP oppose or abstain, but the bill passed anyway, to much anger in Wales.

The EU simply does not work for the UK. Why is this? Is the UK contingent in Brussels/Strasbourg (the circus moves once a month to a duplicate setting at a cost of around £150m per annum) particularly obstructive or intransigent? I think not. The reason that the EU27 vote against the UK's wishes so frequently is that the interests and ambitions of the UK are fundamentally different to those of the other members. We simply don't fit in.
It's interesting that the UK has been so equivocal on it's role in the EEC/EU since its inception, yet the "national icon" of Winston Churchill was advocating a United States of Europe back in 1946. I wonder if the UK's attitude would have been different had it joined the Coal and Steel Community back in the 1950s, and been part of the "project" from the start. The nature of the project could also have been significantly different too.

There's a certain irony to the idea that the UK just doesn't "fit in" with the EU when its four nations have trouble fitting in with each other at times. :)
 

DerekC

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No it doesn't (as has been adequately explained by Nagora).

Whatever machinery the EU utilises, it is a fact that to satisfy the political requirements of 28 very disparate nations is impossible. This particularly affects the UK. Since majority voting was introduced in the late 80s the UK has voted against an EU legislative proposal 70 times. On all 70 occasions the vote was carried. The UK has been on the losing side on formal votes in The Council almost three times as often as the next unlucky loser. The EU simply does not work for the UK. Why is this? Is the UK contingent in Brussels/Strasbourg (the circus moves once a month to a duplicate setting at a cost of around £150m per annum) particularly obstructive or intransigent? I think not. The reason that the EU27 vote against the UK's wishes so frequently is that the interests and ambitions of the UK are fundamentally different to those of the other members. We simply don't fit in.

I presume this relates to the member state votes in the European Commission. The records on the website go back 2006 and there seem to have been about 90 votes per year over that time. You say "since the last 80s" so let's calculate how many votes there may have been over that time - I make it about 2700. So the UK has voted against a proposal 70 times - that's about 2.5% of the time. If that's right we have voted in favour 97.5% of the time. "We simply don't fit in"?? - I make no further comment.

I am not at all misled by the popular press as to how the EU works. I'm perfectly aware of its structure and workings. There is no need to strip apart the decision making process that affect the few examples I cited. There is also no need to suggest that the UK "has influence" over those decisions because it has one Commissioner (of 28) and 12% of the MEPs. It doesn't.

Saying that something is untrue doesn't make it so. Our Commissioner wields 29 weighted points out of 345, so about 8% of the total. Is that not influence? We also influence by participating in the committees which develop things like standards - for example in the railway domain the TSIs which sit behind the Interoperability Directive. From my experience we are quite effective in those too - and in most cases we can argue for national exceptions - and usually get them.

UK governments have successively abrogated their responsibilities on a cumulative basis over a wide range of policy areas that are now effectively outside the UK Parliament's control. It has sub-contracted the business of running the country in those respects to unelected officials and foreign MEPs (who, themselves, have precious little influence anyway). To determine just how far this process has gone you only have to listen to the dire warnings of the cataclysmic catastrophe that awaits if we should leave properly. If they are to be believed, the UK is unable to properly function outside a bloc with federal ambitions to become a state in ts own right. No country should be is such a parlous position.

Words like "abrogated their responsibilities" and "subcontracted the business of running the country" expose the attitude behind them. Is there not a possibility that cooperation with other nation states in policy areas where there is a common interest can be a good thing? Environment. fishing, air travel, standards for all sorts of products, security, policing … the list is very long. And the reason why a no-deal Brexit (if that's what you mean by "leave properly") will be such a disaster is because it will cut off cooperation suddenly in all these areas. In the end we will get over it, but the result will be a poorer, more inward looking country commanding less respect and with less influence in the world and it's just so sad!
 

Killingworth

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I presume this relates to the member state votes in the European Commission. The records on the website go back 2006 and there seem to have been about 90 votes per year over that time. You say "since the last 80s" so let's calculate how many votes there may have been over that time - I make it about 2700. So the UK has voted against a proposal 70 times - that's about 2.5% of the time. If that's right we have voted in favour 97.5% of the time. "We simply don't fit in"?? - I make no further comment.

So Britain, 3.57% of the 28 member states, voted against 2.25% of the time. But we have about 12.25% of the population so maybe it isn't fair. But surely the smaller nations must not feel bullied? Like England shouldn't drown out the wants and needs of Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland.

With the weighting points we get 29, 8.4%, the same as Germany with a much bigger population. (I'd have thought they'd have rather more to complain about than we have as they're picking up so much of the tab.) Most of the Northern states and the smaller ones naturally vote alongside us. We should get our way most of the time, and we do.

From Wikipedia,Voting in the Council of the European Union

Population in millions as of 1 January 2003 [15]

Member state Population Nice Penrose[16]
23px-Flag_of_Germany.svg.png
Germany 82.54m 16.5% 29 8.4% 9.55%
23px-Flag_of_France.svg.png
France 59.64m 12.9% 29 8.4% 8.11%
23px-Flag_of_the_United_Kingdom.svg.png
UK 59.33m 12.4% 29 8.4% 8.09%
23px-Flag_of_Italy.svg.png
Italy 57.32m 12.0% 29 8.4% 7.95%
23px-Flag_of_Spain.svg.png
Spain 41.55m 9.0% 27 7.8% 6.78%
23px-Flag_of_Poland.svg.png
Poland 38.22m 7.6% 27 7.8% 6.49%
23px-Flag_of_Romania.svg.png
Romania 21.77m 4.3% 14 4.1% 4.91%
23px-Flag_of_the_Netherlands.svg.png
Netherlands 17,02m 3.3% 13 3.8% 4.22%
23px-Flag_of_Greece.svg.png
Greece 11.01m 2.2% 12 3.5% 3.49%
23px-Flag_of_Portugal.svg.png
Portugal 10.41m 2.1% 12 3.5% 3.39%
23px-Flag_of_Belgium_%28civil%29.svg.png
Belgium 10.36m 2.1% 12 3.5% 3.38%
23px-Flag_of_the_Czech_Republic.svg.png
Czech Rep. 10.20m 2.1% 12 3.5% 3.35%
23px-Flag_of_Hungary.svg.png
Hungary 10.14m 2.0% 12 3.5% 3.34%
23px-Flag_of_Sweden.svg.png
Sweden 8.94m 1.9% 10 2.9% 3.14%
23px-Flag_of_Austria.svg.png
Austria 8.08m 1.7% 10 2.9% 2.98%
23px-Flag_of_Bulgaria.svg.png
Bulgaria 7.85m 1.5% 10 2.9% 2.94%
20px-Flag_of_Denmark.svg.png
Denmark 5.38m 1.1% 7 2.0% 2.44%
23px-Flag_of_Slovakia.svg.png
Slovakia 5.38m 1.1% 7 2.0% 2.44%
23px-Flag_of_Finland.svg.png
Finland 5.21m 1.1% 7 2.0% 2.39%
23px-Flag_of_Ireland.svg.png
Ireland 3.96m 0.9% 7 2.0% 2.09%
23px-Flag_of_Lithuania.svg.png
Lithuania 3.46m 0.7% 7 2.0% 1.95%
23px-Flag_of_Latvia.svg.png
Latvia 2.33m 0.5% 4 1.2% 1.61%
23px-Flag_of_Slovenia.svg.png
Slovenia 2.00m 0.4% 4 1.2% 1.48%
23px-Flag_of_Estonia.svg.png
Estonia 1.36m 0.3% 4 1.2% 1.23%
23px-Flag_of_Cyprus.svg.png
Cyprus 0.72m 0.2% 4 1.2% 0.89%
23px-Flag_of_Luxembourg.svg.png
Luxembourg 0.45m 0.1% 4 1.2% 0.70%
23px-Flag_of_Malta.svg.png
Malta 0.40m 0.1% 3 0.9% 0.66%

23px-Flag_of_Europe.svg.png
EU 484.20m 100% 348 100% 100%
 
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