I am truly scared.....

Could someone clarify this issue? There may be a way to ask for a settlement while apologising but not admitting guilt, though I'm not sure how. Or in some circumstances it may be a risk that seems worthwhile.

Ian Whitehouse said:

I have just phoned them and asked if I can ask for an administration fee/fine... A bit nervous to do so as wondered if it would jeopardise any potential court proceedings in the future.

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If you agree an administrative settlement then that is the end of the matter. There are no future court proceedings to worry about, no criminal record etc.

If you were to come to the attention of the train company in the future they might not be so keen to offer an administrative settlement for a future transgression but that is the only downside, other than having to pay them some money when arguably you shouldn’t have to.

An administrative settlement might seem like a fine and to all intents and purposes it is but a fine can only be imposed by a court following a conviction. An administrative settlement is completely different to a fine.

I took @Ian Whitehouse to mean the risk from requesting a settlement, rather than a risk from agreeing one. If they don't agree, they can still prosecute, now with the apology/admission.

I see. In reality I think to get a settlement there has to be an admission that what you did was wrong.

If it went to court the chances are the train company would win. There are some technicalities but travelling without a ticket when there were facilities available is a strict liability offence. To get out of it relying on breaches of the Customer Charter or Franchise Agreement is flimsy to say the least. I doubt these form part of the law, although happy to be corrected as i’m It a lawyer.

Ok guys - here is my first draft at attempting to reach a settlement - any feedback is much appreciated!

trainophile said:

Given the OP's story, it will be a total travesty of justice if this is dragged out to the point of a court case. It's wrong on so many counts, starting with the long delay at the departure station ticket office, right through to being singled out when in the process of buying a ticket at destination.

It's threads like this that put people right off rail travel. Perhaps that's the idea .

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I agree with this post. Of the circumstances are as detailed I would be complaining to my MP. Train companies cannot expect you to get to stations at an unspecified number of minutes early to get a ticket, nor march all around the station to find a machine because someone is complaining at the ticket office.

If you queue for 5 minutes to get a ticket and then queue to buy one at your destination along with others it seems unfair to single out one person. I am sure an MP would agree as well, and take up your case. This does of course depend on the circumstances and queuing time being as suggested.

Ian Whitehouse said:

Ok guys - here is my first draft at attempting to reach a settlement - any feedback is much appreciated!

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I think the letter's fine. You might want to clarify that you did manage to purchase a ticket at Shrewsbury. You also might want to mention that you spoke to them by phone and they mentioned that an administrative settlement was a possibility (if that is what they said).

Something here that's bugging me...

Ian Whitehouse said:

I travel around the country every single week on the national rail service for business and spend thousands of pounds a year to do this with various private rail companies.

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Ian Whitehouse said:

I am a nurse and if this goes to court, this may impact on my ability to continue registration - the NMC don't like it when their members have convictions for fraud!

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What kind of nurse spends "thousands of pounds" "travelling around the country" by train "every single week" "for business"?

I'm not saying I don't believe the story or trying to put a fly in the ointment, I'm just genuinely intrigued. I know a few nurses and all of them are too busy working their socks off (in the same location or NHS trust) for nowhere near enough money to travel all around the country on business. This must be a cushier nursing number than the nurses I know are on!

bionic said:

What kind of nurse spends "thousands of pounds" "travelling around the country" by train "every single week" "for business"?

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That could easily be an agency nurse travelling to where he or she is required to work.

A nurse I was with recently travels the country by rail and spends a fortune in rail fares from the charity that employs her, often on complicated multi-leg journeys with no ability to pre-plan timings, resulting in many ordinary singles. She's already been able to reduce that since I explained the benefits of trainsplit. As a patient of that charity, I want them to spend their money on treatment and research, not adding to company bottom lines.

If a passenger arrives in good time (however you want to define that) to buy a ticket, but is unable to do so because somebody else is monopolising the ticket counter, are they legally obliged to miss their train?

The law only states that travel without first buying a ticket is permitted if facilities are "not in working order".

What that translates into in terms of busyness is not defined in law. Someone could I think have a go at defending themselves in court if the ticket office waiting times were longer than in the customer charter: but any such defence is legally unproven as it has never been tested (to my knowledge) in a precedent-setting court. A risk averse person may want to try and settle out of court anyway in such circumstances.

bionic said:

.................What kind of nurse spends "thousands of pounds" "travelling around the country" by train "every single week" ....................

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Could be a clinical trials specialist travelling the country checking on study groups

Could be a specialist worker e.g. breast screening, who travel the country to different sites. Most screeners tend to be contractors, working for different trusts each day of the week

bionic said:

Something here that's bugging me...





What kind of nurse spends "thousands of pounds" "travelling around the country" by train "every single week" "for business"?

I'm not saying I don't believe the story or trying to put a fly in the ointment, I'm just genuinely intrigued. I know a few nurses and all of them are too busy working their socks off (in the same location or NHS trust) for nowhere near enough money to travel all around the country on business. This must be a cushier nursing number than the nurses I know are on!

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Hi there! I am a registered nurse but i don't work for the NHS - I perform training and clinical consulting nationally and don't work clinically anymore. Hope that explains it!

Thanks for all the replies, and sorry to take the thread on a tangent. I was genuinely intrigued. All the nurses I know work for the NHS.

Very aware that they'll be a few naynayers to this... ...I have to say as it often makes my blood boil somewhat for what I perceive as injustices. Having read this thread and many others similar to this every couple of weeks or so, where for whatever reason IMO someone has taken really genuine honest steps to obtain a ticket to then be in the situation of being taken to court at risk of the knock on effects on employment just feels totally wrong and should not be able to continue in this manner. These feel they are caused more often by what appears to be an ever growing breed of overly harsh ticket inspectors; likely through little fault of themselves with likely needing to hit a target / unaware of issues / told by the Train Operating Company (TOC) to take a hard line.

In almost all these cases it seems that for whatever reason the TOC has failed to give a reasonable opportunity to purchase the ticket (ticket machine out of order / unable to purchase a ticket from a guard / issues with staffed ticket office / delayed connections etc etc) for an often nominal amount, only to ultimately put their customers through a heck of a lot of stress and charge a proportionally large fine (and admin fees - no doubt at nominal profit). To all intents and purposes from my perspective the fault really lies more with the TOC than the passenger in so many of these cases (I'm obviously speaking from purely a morality perspective rather than letter of the law as this states otherwise frequently). Obviously, if you turn up at the station with 2 minutes to go then you run the risk of missing it but turning up in good time, trying your best to do so and still not being good enough just is plain wrong. I think probably comes down to your perception of rail travel: I view it as a glorified bus where spontaneous travel is encouraged with no booking required i.e. it's verging on a right for me to turn up in good time and travel vs a less glorified airline style where tickets are always purchased in advance whereby travel is a privilege only. I think a signifcant number of passengers hold the first viewpoint but the TOC's / DfT take the second approach even if branding may allude to otherwise and herein lies part of the issue.

Granted I understand the stringent nature to avoid the many actual fare dodgers and provide proper deterrents and thus limit fare rises but the consequences to people who are trying to be law abiding citizens feels disproportionately bad. Not saying there's an easy solution, as if there was I'd hope we'd probably be going in that direction but the current one to me is allowing through far too many oppotunties for false positives so to speak.

^ Hear hear.

Apart from the fairness aspect, cases like this, which should be cut and dried in the passenger’s favour, must take up an inordinate amount of time and therefore money that could be put to much better use.

E100 said:

Not saying there's an easy solution

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Easy solutions exist simply by looking at neighbouring countries. They make it easy to buy your ticket by using your phone or a smartcard.

radamfi said:

Easy solutions exist simply by looking at neighbouring countries. They make it easy to buy your ticket by using your phone or a smartcard.

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Is the former not an option for Wellington?

30907 said:

Is the former not an option for Wellington?

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Not available when the train is within 10 minutes, like in the situation here.

The main point of mobile ticketing is to avoid queues, yet bizarrely they ban this method of payment at the most likely time that you would like to buy a ticket. Other countries have been able to sell you a mobile ticket right before departure for many years. Yet again, Britain is years behind and then screws it up.

radamfi said:

Not available when the train is within 10 minutes, like in the situation here.

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Where are you getting this time restriction from?

Haywain said:

Where are you getting this time restriction from?

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Go onto the Virgin app or any of the other apps that sell mobile tickets and try and buy a ticket for a train scheduled to leave in the next 10 minutes. It says "not available to buy". There is a loophole where you could buy a ticket for the next train and use it on the earlier one, but we shouldn't need to resort to such loopholes.

radamfi said:

Go onto the Virgin app or any of the other apps that sell mobile tickets and try and buy a ticket for a train scheduled to leave in the next 10 minutes. It says "not available to buy". There is a loophole where you could buy a ticket for the next train and use it on the earlier one, but we shouldn't need to resort to such loopholes.

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That is not a prohibition on buying a ticket but a safeguard against buying a ticket for a train which you might not make. There has to be a line drawn somewhere, allowing for the ticket to be downloaded and activated prior to departure of the train.

Haywain said:

That is not a prohibition on buying a ticket but a safeguard against buying a ticket for a train which you might not make. There has to be a line drawn somewhere, allowing for the ticket to be downloaded and activated prior to departure of the train.

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In other countries, you can buy the ticket on the platform just before you get on the train. Anything worse than that is unacceptable.

radamfi said:

Anything worse than that is unacceptable.

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That's your opinion and you are entitled to it.

Hi all. New development - seems like they are pushing for a prosecution! I don't believe this!!

Ian Whitehouse said:

Hi all. New development - seems like they are pushing for a prosecution! I don't believe this!!

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They're having a laugh, aren't they? Maybe remind them what the byelaw 18 says say and how it can back you up in court.

Ian Whitehouse said:

Hi all. New development - seems like they are pushing for a prosecution! I don't believe this!!

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Believe it or not, there's a silver lining to this cloud...

Up until now it appears that you've been dealing with Transport Investigations Ltd. Opinions vary as to their competency but I think most would agree that they couldn't successfully arrange a piss-up in a brewery. Now that they've ignored your letter (as usual) they will be handing the case file back to the TOC. At which point it should be pretty easy to get them to realise that they don't have a case that would stand up in court.

If they do take it to court under byelaw 18, I'd certainly recommend looking for a good solicitor, and then trying to throw in every argument there is, including trying the one that the byelaw might be ultra vires (invalid) because parliament's version (RORA) explicitly requires an intent not to pay. (Discussed extensively on earlier threads in the forum. This appears to be a good case to demonstrate what is wrong with that byelaw if they try to use it.)

Would you like to upload their first letter? This third letter doesn't say what alleged offence a summons would be for - it says "as previously advised", as does the second one.

It might be good to be more specific about why you are sure about the time you joined the queue - such as "I'm sure it was 8.01 on the clock". Detail may be useful because a long queue is an easy excuse to make up.

Even the letters refer to ticket buying facilities being "available". A machine flights of stairs away might very reasonably be thought not to be "available" to someone with an unwieldy and costly item like an expensive bike, especially when it's reasonable to stay in the queue expecting to be served.

There's also the issue of the inspector and the letters claiming you have to find the conductor, which has been extensively discussed on this forum.
https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/requirement-to-find-the-guard.189136/page-3#post-4163146