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ATW/Keolis Amey Wales stock shortages

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hooverboy

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The 230s on the Marston Vale keep on failing so what hope there for TFW who are awaiting some
we'll have to wait and see what the caterpillar blocks do. I assume this is going to be changed for the whole fleet.

technically the marston units will still be within the warranty period, they were only operational in april, so I would expect anythring wrong between then and the following april to be rectified at vivarails expense.,so amendments will be retrofitted as and when available/working.
Perhaps this will be done and aircon/air cooling fitted as additional compensation for lost revenue.

they're actually quite nice trains aside from that.
 
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Tomos y Tanc

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There's an article about the stock shortages on the BBC website.

There's nothing much new in it but this comment by Stuart Cole hits the nail on the head.

"Many of the issues involved are legacy issues - not necessarily the fault of the Arriva Trains, because they had a constraint of a no-growth franchise. It was a service always designed to work downwards so it would eventually close. That didn't happen. The Welsh public decided they wanted to travel by train."
 

tomos dafis

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It is only 1 x 175 in at a time. TFW had said 2 but at the time there was a slight overlap of one going in and one coming out.. Apologies for the error.
An article appeared in the Western Mail on Monday, including quotes from Colin Lea, customer experience director at TFW. He says some units have recently suffered damage in service, aggravating the situation where units are already out of use for necessary modifications/refurbishment. Apparently six units are currently out of service for modification/refurbishment - so that covers 3 X 150, 2 X 153, and 1 X 175 presumably, though it goes on to say that one extra 150 is being modified with WSP - don't know if that counts as one of the 3 being modified or is a 4th 150 out of service for modification work.
The article also refers to Pacers, saying DfT have recognised that some will remain in service for a short time after Jan 1st 2020, but significantly it notes that this "applies only to Northern" and TFW remain committed to pacer withdrawal by the end of the year. So does that mean that, as has already been suggested, Welsh Government has blocked any request to DfT to extend the life of some pacers in Wales?
Finally the article refers to the 769's (which it calls Flex trains) and notes that they should have been in service in June 2018 but have been severely delayed - though it suggests driver training could start in September in Wales (but not at Northern) and some could be in service by November, but certainly not all 9 of those ordered. Hence rumours that the 2 37 loco hauled sets on the Rhymney line could be allowed to continue into 2020?
There was no mention of 230's.
 
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Envoy

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Starting to look like the 769 project has been a failure? Perhaps it would have been more productive to get hold of some HST’s that have gone for scrap and use them as stoppers on the Cheltenham to Pembrokeshire routes thus freeing up some dmu’s?
 

PHILIPE

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Starting to look like the 769 project has been a failure? Perhaps it would have been more productive to get hold of some HST’s that have gone for scrap and use them as stoppers on the Cheltenham to Pembrokeshire routes thus freeing up some dmu’s?

HSTs were considered earlier for the Holyhead to Cardiff but they would be non-PRM compliant by the time drivers would have been trained (3 weeks). There has been earlier discussion on this suggestion. There are no services that run between Cheltenham and Pembrokeshire
 

geoffk

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Today and Monday a 150 operated on the North Wales - Man Airport service. Today it was the 11.44 ex Llandudno and 14.36 return. I saw there was a trolley on board. On Monday there also a 150 working to Milford Haven. Use of 150s to Manchester seems to be increasing. TfW are due to get 12 170s from Greater Anglia, which will be an improvement once they have been cleared for the intended routes and crews trained. What routes will they used on (apols if this is covered elsewhere)?
 

PHILIPE

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Today and Monday a 150 operated on the North Wales - Man Airport service. Today it was the 11.44 ex Llandudno and 14.36 return. I saw there was a trolley on board. On Monday there also a 150 working to Milford Haven. Use of 150s to Manchester seems to be increasing. TfW are due to get 12 170s from Greater Anglia, which will be an improvement once they have been cleared for the intended routes and crews trained. What routes will they used on (apols if this is covered elsewhere)?

The 170s are, at the moment, intended initially to work Maesteg, Cheltenham and Ebbw Vale services. At a later stage when more 2 Cars arrive on the Heart of Wales line. Too many 150s have been appearing on these services for a time now as well as Birmingham International vice 158s
 
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geoffk

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The 170s are, at the moment, intended initially to work Maesteg, Cheltenham and Ebbw Vale services. At a later stage when more 2 Cars arrive on the Heart of Wales line. Too many 150s have been appearing on thses services for a time now as well as Birmingham International vice 158s
Interesting. Gloucestershire is a former stamping ground of mine. AT least 170s already operate between Cheltenham and Cardiff so no clearance issues.
 

Cardiff123

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Today and Monday a 150 operated on the North Wales - Man Airport service. Today it was the 11.44 ex Llandudno and 14.36 return. I saw there was a trolley on board. On Monday there also a 150 working to Milford Haven. Use of 150s to Manchester seems to be increasing. TfW are due to get 12 170s from Greater Anglia, which will be an improvement once they have been cleared for the intended routes and crews trained. What routes will they used on (apols if this is covered elsewhere)?
Looking at the cascaded stock that TfW is due to receive by the end of this year, crew training will be needed on all of it before it can enter service.

Mk 4's, 170s, 230s, 769s, - crew training will be needed on all of these. If TfW don't get the Mk 4's & 170s until December, crew training could take months. Then 30 Pacers disappear in January. Will TfW still be able to run a viable rail service in many parts of Wales in early 2020?
 

Rhydgaled

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Apparently six units are currently out of service for modification/refurbishment - so that covers 3 X 150, 2 X 153, and 1 X 175 presumably, though it goes on to say that one extra 150 is being modified with WSP - don't know if that counts as one of the 3 being modified or is a 4th 150 out of service for modification work.
I wonder if there's only 2 class 150s in the works, or they aren't counting the (two?) 153s that haven't entered TfW service yet, because shouldn't there be a class 158 having CETs fitted and remaining PRM mods done counted among those 6?

Starting to look like the 769 project has been a failure? Perhaps it would have been more productive to get hold of some HST’s that have gone for scrap and use them as stoppers on the Cheltenham to Pembrokeshire routes thus freeing up some dmu’s?
HSTs were considered earlier for the Holyhead to Cardiff but they would be non-PRM compliant by the time drivers would have been trained (3 weeks).
Why would you use HSTs on stoppers? If they were coming, it would make far more sense to put them on Manchester-Swansea (or perhaps Holyhead-Cardiff as PHILIPE suggested). As has been said though, IC125s are not PRM-compliant. That said, what is? How many class 67s are available? If the Pacers aren't granted a stay of execution and the 'new' (to Wales) fleets haven't turned up in time I wonder if there could be scope to increase the number of mark 4 sets (and/or get an extension granted on the use of mark 2s and mark 3s). It's not going to cover the 20 odd extra units needed to replace the Pacers (I'm saying 20 not 30 as some of the Pacers run in pairs), but more mark 4 sets could free up some 158s/175s from long-distance routes to trigger a cascade towards the valleys to cover for some of the Pacer replacement needs. If the 230s and 170s make it into service in time that's 17 units (out of 26 units supposedly coming in the 'short term' once you add the 9x 769s). If none of them make it, something is going to have to be allowed to run on without PRM mods (possibly bring in more 153s if other TOC's plans to replace them succeed, what's the status of West Midlands class 153 replacement?)

There has been earlier discussion on this suggestion. There are no services that run between Cheltenham and Pembrokeshire
There's a Gloucester to Fishguard though (or has that been cut back now?) and used to be (quite a few years back now) a Fishguard-Cheltenham.

Looking at the cascaded stock that TfW is due to receive by the end of this year, crew training will be needed on all of it before it can enter service.

Mk 4's, 170s, 230s, 769s, - crew training will be needed on all of these. If TfW don't get the Mk 4's & 170s until December, crew training could take months. Then 30 Pacers disappear in January. Will TfW still be able to run a viable rail service in many parts of Wales in early 2020?
The planned 3x rakes of mark 4s are not relevant to the Pacer replacement equasion, as they are needed to replace the mark 3 rakes. I understand from elsewhere on this forum that 3 sets of mark 4s are already off lease (and presumably in the works for refurbishment though I've seen nothing to confirm that) so hopefully they at least will turn up.
 

anamyd

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the (two?) 153s that haven't entered TfW service yet
one has not yet been in service with TfW, but two are in works. of the 5 ex-GWR 153s that were delivered to TfW on the 1st of April 2019 (the delivery train was 325/333 front units and 329/361/369 middle/rear units) 4 went into service in mid-May (329, 333, 361 and 369 - 329/361/369 in FGW livery with TfW logos, and 333 in TfW livery because it was delivered in tatty ex-London Midland livery due to having its "Visit South Devon by Train" wrap removed which FGW had wrapped it straight into when they got it from LM.) 325 was the same as 333 but rather than going straight into TfW livery and service with TfW, it went to Long Marston (I believe) for TfW livery application, TfW spec interior refurbishment and PRM mods which are the first nationally on a 153 so it's understandable it's taking so long. 323 joined it in works but that's one of the ex-ATW ones

Transport for Wales
Great Western Railway
First Great Western
Persons with Reduced Mobility
Arriva Trains Wales
 
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tomos dafis

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I wonder if there's only 2 class 150s in the works, or they aren't counting the (two?) 153s that haven't entered TfW service yet, because shouldn't there be a class 158 having CETs fitted and remaining PRM mods done counted among those 6?
I forgot about the 158's, so it could be just 2 150's in for mods. and 1 158, 2 153's, and 1 175 = total 6 (plus another 150 for wsp not counted in the 6?).
 

Envoy

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As we are leaving the EU on 31 October, surely they can just ignore the EU ruling about PRM mods?
 

krus_aragon

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As we are leaving the EU on 31 October, surely they can just ignore the EU ruling about PRM mods?
Just like not leaving the EU on the 31st would require a change in the (UK) law, changing the PRM-TSI requirements would also require an act of Parliament.
 

Dai Corner

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Just like not leaving the EU on the 31st would require a change in the (UK) law, changing the PRM-TSI requirements would also require an act of Parliament.

Indeed.

Basically, all applicable EU law will be incorporated into UK law and remain so until Parliament decides to change or repeal it.
 

Bikeman78

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As we are leaving the EU on 31 October, surely they can just ignore the EU ruling about PRM mods?
The EU rule only applies to new trains. Older trains can carry on until they are replaced. The end of year deadline for existing trains is entirely of our own making.
 

Caaardiff

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TfW and the Welsh Government face a huge amount of backlash if there's no fleet replacement or extension allowed to the Pacers. Although some might argue TOC's have had enough time to sort it out, the reality is, it won't wash with passengers. There's already enough backlash from travellers on the state of the fleet and unit shortages. Common sense should prevail and temporary measures put in. From what i'm told TfW are doing everything they can to source additional fleet, but as there's still question marks about getting anything new, a simple backup would be to extend the pacers a bit longer until the rest of the fleet is refurbished, or at least put 175 refurbishments on hold. Even though it's only 1 unit, they are already PRM compliant, it's just interior refresh being done.
A compromise would be to have a Pacer always attached to a 150 that is PRM compliant. At least a portion of the train will then be compliant, even though it's not technically a through walking train. Journey times are also a lot shorter on the Valleys services

The latest from TfW is;
- 769's should be in service by Sept, but no update on where that is.
- 170's should be in service by Oct, with no hint of delays as yet.
- 230's should be in service by Oct, but no update on where that program is
- MK4 coaches should be in service by Dec.

With 12 170's due, has it been confirmed what routes they will operate? Maesteg - Cheltenham was in the original bid but also heard Cardiff - Ebbw Vale. Am I right in thinking that both of these routes only require 2 units each to cover the service? With the complications of route clearance, driver training etc, what exactly are the other 8 units going to do?? (In the short term). They obviously route cleared Cardiff - Cheltenham as XC use them, but Maesteg - Cardiff and Cardiff - Ebbw Vale will need route clearance. If there are any delays in receiving them, and them timescale required to get train crew train and the type route cleared, it could be messy.
 

PHILIPE

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TfW and the Welsh Government face a huge amount of backlash if there's no fleet replacement or extension allowed to the Pacers. Although some might argue TOC's have had enough time to sort it out, the reality is, it won't wash with passengers. There's already enough backlash from travellers on the state of the fleet and unit shortages. Common sense should prevail and temporary measures put in. From what i'm told TfW are doing everything they can to source additional fleet, but as there's still question marks about getting anything new, a simple backup would be to extend the pacers a bit longer until the rest of the fleet is refurbished, or at least put 175 refurbishments on hold. Even though it's only 1 unit, they are already PRM compliant, it's just interior refresh being done.
A compromise would be to have a Pacer always attached to a 150 that is PRM compliant. At least a portion of the train will then be compliant, even though it's not technically a through walking train. Journey times are also a lot shorter on the Valleys services

The latest from TfW is;
- 769's should be in service by Sept, but no update on where that is.
- 170's should be in service by Oct, with no hint of delays as yet.
- 230's should be in service by Oct, but no update on where that program is
- MK4 coaches should be in service by Dec.

With 12 170's due, has it been confirmed what routes they will operate? Maesteg - Cheltenham was in the original bid but also heard Cardiff - Ebbw Vale. Am I right in thinking that both of these routes only require 2 units each to cover the service? With the complications of route clearance, driver training etc, what exactly are the other 8 units going to do?? (In the short term). They obviously route cleared Cardiff - Cheltenham as XC use them, but Maesteg - Cardiff and Cardiff - Ebbw Vale will need route clearance. If there are any delays in receiving them, and them timescale required to get train crew train and the type route cleared, it could be messy.

If I may comment on a couple items and try to fill you in. The 175 refurbishment is a franchise commitment (hoping that I'm right but have seen posted). 769s hoping to start driver training in September with a view to entering passenger service in November on the Rhymney Valley. There would probably be 5 x 170s required for the Maesteg to Cheltenham and as some of the Ebbw Vale services wil be running to and from Bridgend from December this would take 3. The 2 Car 170s are not expected until much later and are earmarked for the Heart of Wales Line. If these plans don't work out please
 
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Bikeman78

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With 12 170's due, has it been confirmed what routes they will operate? Maesteg - Cheltenham was in the original bid but also heard Cardiff - Ebbw Vale. Am I right in thinking that both of these routes only require 2 units each to cover the service? With the complications of route clearance, driver training etc, what exactly are the other 8 units going to do?? (In the short term). They obviously route cleared Cardiff - Cheltenham as XC use them, but Maesteg - Cardiff and Cardiff - Ebbw Vale will need route clearance. If there are any delays in receiving them, and them timescale required to get train crew train and the type route cleared, it could be messy.
Maesteg to Cheltenham needs four units and Ebbw Vale needs three.
 

Rhydgaled

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one has not yet been in service with TfW, but two are in works. of the 5 ex-GWR 153s that were delivered to TfW on the 1st of April 2019 (the delivery train was 325/333 front units and 329/361/369 middle/rear units) 4 went into service in mid-May (329, 333, 361 and 369 - 329/361/369 in FGW livery with TfW logos, and 333 in TfW livery because it was delivered in tatty ex-London Midland livery due to having its "Visit South Devon by Train" wrap removed which FGW had wrapped it straight into when they got it from LM.) 325 was the same as 333 but rather than going straight into TfW livery and service with TfW, it went to Long Marston (I believe) for TfW livery application, TfW spec interior refurbishment and PRM mods which are the first nationally on a 153 so it's understandable it's taking so long. 323 joined it in works but that's one of the ex-ATW ones
Ah, thanks; for some reason I was thinking only two FirstGW livery 153s had entered service along with the TfW liveried 153333. I also didn't know that any of the Arriva-livery 153s had gone for mods.

I forgot about the 158's, so it could be just 2 150's in for mods. and 1 158, 2 153's, and 1 175 = total 6 (plus another 150 for wsp not counted in the 6?).
Yeah, could be that or it could be they aren't counting 153325 because it hasn't entered service with TfW rail yet.

TfW and the Welsh Government face a huge amount of backlash if there's no fleet replacement or extension allowed to the Pacers. Although some might argue TOC's have had enough time to sort it out, the reality is, it won't wash with passengers.
The new TfW franchise hasn't had enough time to sort it out. The letting of a 15 year no-growth contract to Arriva Trains Wales pretty much set in stone that there wouldn't be enough time to make the fleet compliant unless other TOCs off leased a shed load of complaint DMUs arround this time, which clearly did not happen. I can understand that a for-growth franchise was considered unaffordable at the time the franchise was let, but they should have limited it to 10-12 years to give the replacement TOC time to prepare for 2020.

The latest from TfW is;
- 769's should be in service by Sept, but no update on where that is.
- 170's should be in service by Oct, with no hint of delays as yet.
- 230's should be in service by Oct, but no update on where that program is
- MK4 coaches should be in service by Dec.
'In service' for the first three fleets there looks rather dubious, being introduced on staff training runs from those dates seems more plausable. I'd guess that unless a 769 starts crew training imminently they will struggle to get them into service in September, let alone before then. The worry is that if those are really staff training start dates, then the mark 4s will be too late to replace the mark 3s from December.
 

anthony263

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769 staff training from Sept they not due to enter service till November. So far onmy 769002 and 769008 have bern delivered. One is being wrapped in tfw livery at Pullman rails depot which believe is 008
 

Cambrian359

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Perhaps ‘do not travel’ warnings could be issued with a start date of 01/01/2020. Like they do with serious unplanned disruptions, except this would be planned!

Joking aside ,as others have said hopefully common sense will prevail before we get to that stage!
 

Bikeman78

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'In service' for the first three fleets there looks rather dubious, being introduced on staff training runs from those dates seems more plausable. I'd guess that unless a 769 starts crew training imminently they will struggle to get them into service in September, let alone before then. The worry is that if those are really staff training start dates, then the mark 4s will be too late to replace the mark 3s from December.
Given the number of other TOCs that are likely to use slam door Mark 2 and 3 stock next year, I don't think getting permission to use the Mark 3 sets a bit longer will be a major problem. From December both sets will run Cardiff to Holyhead. The schedules are already in RTT. One set will do 1W91/1V96/1W96 and the other will do 1V91/1W93/1V98. So crews will need training at a few locations.
 

Bikeman78

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Maesteg 1415
Cheltenham 1631 1646
Maesteg 1908

Comes round every 5 hours.
Don't forgot it's not hourly to Cheltenham, there's no train at 0812, 1112 or 1412 so that saves a unit. The 1723 Cardiff to Maesteg currently runs through from Holyhead but in December it will be a unit from Canton. I suspect it will be the unit off the 0915 arrival from Holyhead.

One thing I'd forgotten is that the 1312 to Gloucester forms 1B67 through to Fishguard departing Cardiff at 1604. That can probably be tweaked so that it forms the 1618 to Maesteg with the 1604 coming off Canton. In December the 1B67 is already split at Cardiff.
 

PHILIPE

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Don't forgot it's not hourly to Cheltenham, there's no train at 0812, 1112 or 1412 so that saves a unit. The 1723 Cardiff to Maesteg currently runs through from Holyhead but in December it will be a unit from Canton. I suspect it will be the unit off the 0915 arrival from Holyhead.

One thing I'd forgotten is that the 1312 to Gloucester forms 1B67 through to Fishguard departing Cardiff at 1604. That can probably be tweaked so that it forms the 1618 to Maesteg with the 1604 coming off Canton. In December the 1B67 is already split at Cardiff.

Yes, I had forgotten the Cheltenham gaps. There was talk of the Cjeltenham running hourly at one time but I don't TFW are realy interested in it now. You must have second sight as, according to RTT which I regard as a Draft at this time, as the 1604 to Fishguard Hb ris due to start at Cardiff etc.
 

Entertexthere

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Would there be enough class 67s for TFW to PRM mod the current mk3s and put them on the Manchester to Cardiff or wherever once the mk4s are in operation? There probably wouldn't be enough time to modify them before 2020, so it'd probably be after 2020 for which they would be introduced? Seeing as it would end up freeing up a few class 175s for further use
 

43096

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Would there be enough class 67s for TFW to PRM mod the current mk3s and put them on the Manchester to Cardiff or wherever once the mk4s are in operation? There probably wouldn't be enough time to modify them before 2020, so it'd probably be after 2020 for which they would be introduced? Seeing as it would end up freeing up a few class 175s for further use
Wouldn’t it be easier just to take more Mark 4s as they come off lease?
 

Rhydgaled

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Would there be enough class 67s for TFW to PRM mod the current mk3s and put them on the Manchester to Cardiff or wherever once the mk4s are in operation? There probably wouldn't be enough time to modify them before 2020, so it'd probably be after 2020 for which they would be introduced? Seeing as it would end up freeing up a few class 175s for further use
Wouldn’t it be easier just to take more Mark 4s as they come off lease?
Indeed, no time to modify mark 3s, with GWR, XC and ScotRail all still waiting for their mark 3s to be ready I believe. Which is why I asked above (post #1871) how many 67s are available and whether more mark 4s could be obtained by December. Crew training for more 67s and (as yet absent) mark 4s would be an added difficulty though. Do enough drivers currently sign the 67s to take on more of them?
 
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