Changing Manchester Stations on Season Ticket via Salford Crescent, and Breaks of Journey

I commute from Earlestown to Manchester with an annual season ticket to Manchester stations. While this obviously covers travel between Earlestown, the four Manchester group stations and any stations between them, I am unsure what I am allowed to do to travel between Manchester stations. While there are now direct trains between Manchester Victoria and Manchester Oxford Road, can I also transfer between them via Salford Crescent on my current season ticket?

I'm none-the-wiser for reading the routing guide (if I'm reading it correctly). National Rail's website will offer me that as a route for what appears to be the exact same ticket as a direct journey over the Orsdall Chord. As for approaching the various parties themselves:

• I called National Rail and they said "yes but check with Northern to get confirmation in writing to show gateline staff" (as Northern run almost all the relevant trains).
  
• Northern said "you should be able to but check with station staff"
• Station staff at Victoria said "no as that train doesn't go to Earlestown" but they didn't seem to quite grasp what I was asking/weren't especially interested.

So I'm kind of stuck, and am hesitent to try it in person without a better idea of the validity. Can anyone help? Can I transfer between the Manchester stations by changing at Salford Crescent on my current season ticket?

If the answer to that is yes, I presume I could break my journey at Salford Crescent if I choose to? Or Salford Central, which the Victoria-to-Crescent leg stops at, for that matter?

For the avoidance of doubt, my season ticket is not a Greater Manchester Traincard, as Earlestown station is a whole two miles (and £700) over the border into Merseyside.

Cheers in advance.

In the NR journey planner you need to see if a journey between Earlestown and Manchester Vic/Picc can be made travelling via Salford Crescent using only one ticket. If it can it will provide evidence that the routing guide allows what you want to do. Or not, of course.

Haywain said:

In the NR journey planner you need to see if a journey between Earlestown and Manchester Vic/Picc can be made travelling via Salford Crescent using only one ticket. If it can it will provide evidence that the routing guide allows what you want to do. Or not, of course.

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As far as I can tell it's one ticket it's offering me; nothing suggests what it is offering me is anything other than an Anytime Single. Additonally when I put in alternative 'Go Via' stations that are futher afield (e.g. Manchester Airport or Bolton), I get told no tickets are available for this journey. So to me it looks like, yes, going via Salford Crescent is an allowed route.

Further to this, there's no other reason I wouldn't be able to break the journey, is there? A quick search of the easements list doesn't come up with any relative negative easements for Salford Crescent.

I have now checked this and a journey via Salford Crescent is offered with one ticket, therefor this would be valid. So your season can be used to travel beteween the two sides of Manchester as you suggest. And break of journey is always allowed on a permitted route, so leaving the station at Salford Crescent would be acceptable.

Yes, it's valid.

Staff at Salford Crescent are well used to people breaking their journey there en route between two Manchester stations.

I've done it dozens of times without issue.

Excellent, perfect, thank you both for your help!

If you're wondering about the logic behind it, Earlestown-Manchester Stations is valid on the NO map. NO includes the Earlestown Group-Manchester Group and Manchester Group-Salford Crescent links. In terms of stations, this could be:

Earlestown-Newton-le-Willows-Deansgate
Deansgate-Salford Crescent
Salford Crescent-Manchester Victoria

This follows routes shown on the NO map, and doesn't involve doubling back through any station, so is a permitted route for an Earlestown-Manchester Stations ticket. There's nothing in the rules about using a line on a map more than once; only about revisiting a specific station.

The National Rail site will offer a similar route with a change at Manchester Oxford Road instead of Deansgate with an anytime day single, so you don't need to worry about whether any of the trains you catch stop at Deansgate.

kieron said:

If you're wondering about the logic behind it, Earlestown-Manchester Stations is valid on the NO map. NO includes the Earlestown Group-Manchester Group and Manchester Group-Salford Crescent links. In terms of stations, this could be:

Earlestown-Newton-le-Willows-Deansgate
Deansgate-Salford Crescent
Salford Crescent-Manchester Victoria

....

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In this example, wouldn't the mapped part of the journey (from Earlestown Group to Manchester Group ) end as soon as you reach a Manchester Group member (Deansgate)?

JB_B said:

In this example, wouldn't the mapped part of the journey (from Earlestown Group to Manchester Group ) end as soon as you reach a Manchester Group member (Deansgate)?

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That doesn't sound right to me. What would be a problem though is if the fare is issued to the "Manchester Stations" fares group. My understanding is that it's not permitted to call at a station in a fares group, then call at one or more stations outside the fares group before calling at a station in the fares group again. Thus this would be permitted:
Deansgate (call) - Oxford Road (call) - Deansgate (pass) - Salford Central (pass) - Victoria (call)
(i.e. changing at Oxford Road to a TPE service that takes the Ordsall Chord), but this is not:
Deansgate (call) - Salford Crescent (call) - Salford Central (pass) - Victoria (call)
because you are calling at a station outside the fares group after calling at the first station inside the fares group.

But this is nothing to do with the routeing guide. As kieron has pointed out, the second route above is permitted by the routeing guide for an Earlestown to Manchester Victoria journey. But as far as I can see, it would need to be made on a fare issued specifically to Manchester Victoria (e.g. a Northern Only advance), rather than a Manchester Stations fare. I can't seem to reproduce what others are saying about it being shown on NRE with the Anytime Day Single to Manchester Stations.

Edit: I can reproduce it on NRE by specifically adding Salford Crescent as a via point. But I have to say I disagree with NRE here. I don't see how it can possibly be valid to leave a fares group and then re-enter it. If that is permitted, then surely a London Terminals fare can be used via Farringdon? I don't see why it should be any different!

Indigo2 said:

But this is nothing to do with the routeing guide. As kieron has pointed out, the second route above is permitted by the routeing guide for an Earlestown to Manchester Victoria journey. But as far as I can see, it would need to be made on a fare issued specifically to Manchester Victoria (e.g. a Northern Only advance), rather than a Manchester Stations fare. I can't seem to reproduce what others are saying about it being shown on NRE with the Anytime Day Single to Manchester Stations.

Edit: I can reproduce it on NRE by specifically adding Salford Crescent as a via point. But I have to say I disagree with NRE here. I don't see how it can possibly be valid to leave a fares group and then re-enter it. If that is permitted, then surely a London Terminals fare can be used via Farringdon? I don't see why it should be any different!

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You cannot purchase a season ticket to specifically Manchester Victoria, only Manchester Stations.

The NRE result with the 'via' specified still makes it valid and offers the same ticket, though? Since I asked this question I've tried this in person and had only a few initially confused looks from gateline staff, but otherwise no issues.

NRE does still occasionally give a result between Victoria and Oxford via Salford Crescent without specifying it as a 'via' point (e.g. 0607 weekday from Victoria), but it used to be super-common to see before direct Victoria to Oxford Road services over the chord became more common.

For the example you give for Farrington, London is a strange case with the varying rules for Terminals, Thameslink Terminals, and validity of some services crossing the city but not others. A St Albans City to London Terminals ticket is the same one I'd be offered if going to St Pancras, Farringdon or London Bridge. Only the first or last are London Terminals, but the ticket is the same to all three. But London is weird.

Indigo2 said:

That doesn't sound right to me. What would be a problem though is if the fare is issued to the "Manchester Stations" fares group. My understanding is that it's not permitted to call at a station in a fares group, then call at one or more stations outside the fares group before calling at a station in the fares group again. Thus this would be permitted:
Deansgate (call) - Oxford Road (call) - Deansgate (pass) - Salford Central (pass) - Victoria (call)
(i.e. changing at Oxford Road to a TPE service that takes the Ordsall Chord), but this is not:
Deansgate (call) - Salford Crescent (call) - Salford Central (pass) - Victoria (call)
because you are calling at a station outside the fares group after calling at the first station inside the fares group.

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Sorry to double-quote but I had a thought about this durng lunch. In my circumstances, at least, I'm on a season ticket so I can break my journey to my heart's content. In your second example, when I disembark at Oxford Road it doesn't matter if I've arrived on a train that has called at Deansgate on the way in or just passed through as one can effectively break and start a new journey at Oxford Road. The ticket is valid for transit between the Manchester group stations, and as long as changing at Salford Crescent is a valid route (which I believe it is, and what I orignally came here to clarify) between Piccadilly/Oxford Road/Deansgate and Victoria, the doubling back through stations and calling or passing isn't relevant.

I'm also presuming that as long as Oxford Road to Victoria via Salford Crescent is valid, I can break my journey at Salford Central in line with standard break-of-journey rules on a season ticket.

FishUK said:

A St Albans City to London Terminals ticket is the same one I'd be offered if going to St Pancras, Farringdon or London Bridge. Only the first or last are London Terminals, but the ticket is the same to all three. But London is weird.

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There are no St Albans to London Terminals tickets. If you requested that you would be sold a ticket to London Thameslink.

FishUK said:

The NRE result with the 'via' specified still makes it valid and offers the same ticket, though?

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That's debatable! I think it means it should be accepted by all train company staff. But I don't think it necessarily makes it valid, in a strict technical sense. I think the journey planner used by National Rail Enquiries has made a mistake (i.e. has a bug in it). I'm not disputing that going via Salford Crescent is a permitted route form Earlestown to Manchester Victoria, just that it isn't valid to go that way on a ticket to/from Manchester Stations because it's not permitted to exit and re-enter a fares group at the start or end of your journey like that.

Indigo2 said:

That's debatable! I think it means it should be accepted by all train company staff. But I don't think it necessarily makes it valid, in a strict technical sense. I think the journey planner used by National Rail Enquiries has made a mistake (i.e. has a bug in it). I'm not disputing that going via Salford Crescent is a permitted route form Earlestown to Manchester Victoria, just that it isn't valid to go that way on a ticket to/from Manchester Stations because it's not permitted to exit and re-enter a fares group at the start or end of your journey like that.

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I agree with the point you are making but this thread started with a question about the use of a season ticket. So, for the purposes of the OP, if Salford Crescent lies on a permitted route between Earlestown and Manchester Stations there will be no issue with his using the ticket to make the journey between the two sides of Manchester.

Indigo2 said:

That doesn't sound right to me.
...

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OK - thanks. My thinking was that, as the mapped journey is from Earlestown Routeing Point Group (G78) to Manchester Routeing Point Group (G20), the mapped part of the journey ends once you reach G20 (at Deansgate) and so you're left only with a local journey possible to whichever of Manchester Stations Fares Group is your chosen destination.

However, I accept that there's nothing in the RG documentation that explicitly backs up that interpretation.

( I wouldn't have quibbled with Kieron's suggested route using the Manchester RPG-Salford Crescent map link in post #7 if the ultimate destination routeing point had been beyond Manchester.)

What would be a problem though is if the fare is issued to the "Manchester Stations" fares group. My understanding is that it's not permitted to call at a station in a fares group, then call at one or more stations outside the fares group before calling at a station in the fares group again.

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I can see that such a rule might make sense - is it documented?


I think that for Earlestown to Piccadilly and Earlestown to Victoria journeys the routes via Salford Crescent are less than 4 miles longer than the shortest route. So could NRE just be validating the routes just on journey planner margin?

Haywain said:

So, for the purposes of the OP, if Salford Crescent lies on a permitted route between Earlestown and Manchester Stations there will be no issue with his using the ticket to make the journey between the two sides of Manchester.

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Not sure if it's just a typo but the bit I've highlighted doesn't make sense. Manchester Stations is a fares group, but the routeing guide deals only with permitted routes between individual stations; it doesn't define permitted routes to or from a fares group. Howevefr we have established that Salford Crescent lies on a permitted route between Earlestown and Manchester Victoria.

So I suppose, you could argue, that if you travel from Manchester Victoria to Salford Crescent on the season, that there could theoretically be an onward train to Earlestown that reverses at Deansgate without calling. And that such a train doesn't need to exist in the current timetable to make the journey valid. I think I can buy that argument.

But then, if you want to continue on a train from Salford Crescent to Deansgate, you can't argue that the journey you're resuming hasn't started at Victoria, because being on a permitted route from Victoria to Earlestown is the only thing that is making the SLD-DGT stretch valid on the ticket. So then when the train inevitably calls at DGT, MCO or MAN, you are re-entering the Manchester Stations fares group again (having left it when first calling at Salford Crescent).

I'm still finding it very difficult to justify...

JB_B said:

OK - thanks. My thinking was that, as the mapped journey is from Earlestown Routeing Point Group (G78) to Manchester Routeing Point Group (G20), the mapped part of the journey ends once you reach G20 (at Deansgate) and so you're left only with a local journey possible to whichever of Manchester Stations Fares Group is your chosen destination.

However, I accept that there's nothing in the RG documentation that explicitly backs up that interpretation.

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I suppose the way I look at it is when tracing a mapped route you're not actually tracing between routeing points on the map - you're tracing between the physical stations on the ground, and just following along on the map. I think your interpretation is overly restrictive. The routeing guide explicitly says that routeing groups are there for the passenger's benefit, to improve access to interchange facilities, but your interpretation reduces flexibility by disallowing some journeys onward to another station in the group, even if it wouldn't involve any doubling back and would otherwise be allowed.

What would be a problem though is if the fare is issued to the "Manchester Stations" fares group. My understanding is that it's not permitted to call at a station in a fares group, then call at one or more stations outside the fares group before calling at a station in the fares group again.

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I can see that such a rule might make sense - is it documented?

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No it's not. It's my interpretation. And maybe I'm wrong. But if I'm wrong, then I don't see how journeys to a London Terminal on the "wrong" side of Farringdon can bre barred. So this Manchester situation is setting a very interesting precedent.