Northern 323s refurbishment and cascade

4-SUB 4732 · 17 Aug 2019

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/the-future-of-the-class-319-769-fleet.168693/

RailUK Forums

danielnez1 · 17 Aug 2019

6026KingJohn said:
Yes, they were also used on some Birmingham to Liverpool services before Cross City trains went from 4tph to 6tph.
I checked a couple of Platform 5 books, shown as 100 in 2004 & 90 in 2010.

My 1999 book shows them as having 90 mph max speed.

jonesy3001 · 17 Aug 2019

When WMT/LWR 323217 first went for refurb there was pics everywhere, not seen nothing on 323234s progress unless northern are doing another press launch when it comes back from wolverton.

geoffk · 17 Aug 2019

prod_pep said:
Back on topic, it's a pleasant surprise to hear Northern plans to take on all the WMT 323s. Without platform lengthening, there doesn't appear to be enough work for them. Hopefully the Alderley Edge service goes back to EMUs following timetable revisions.

This is not helped by the way cross-Manchester services are linked, not just Alderley Edge but Northern's plan to introduce a Leeds - Calder Valley - Liverpool service, meaning a diesel service on the Chat Moss route. Of course, if the electrification plan had been fully carried out (Victoria - Stalybridge, Lostock - Wigan and Windermere) this would have provided work for the extra units.

6026KingJohn · 17 Aug 2019

LOL The Irony said:
Surely it was a mis-print as I can't find anything about this anywhere else.

From personal knowledge it said Max speed 100 mph in the cab

507 001 · 17 Aug 2019

danielnez1 said:
My 1999 book shows them as having 90 mph max speed.

I’m 99% certain they’ve always been 90

158752 · 17 Aug 2019

Having been directly involved in these particular units for more than 15 years I can categorically confirm they have been maximum top permitted speed of 90mph throughout. As is to be expected they are capable of considerably higher speed though.

Roast Veg · 17 Aug 2019

What's the status of 6 car working east of the Pennines? Could we see doubled up 333/0s over there as opposed to single 331/1s with the influx of all these units?

MarkWiles · 17 Aug 2019

I wonder if the 323s will actually be cheaper to operate for Northern? Being of alloy construction they should be lighter, which presumably will affect access charges and electricity consumption, and being three car I would have thought would also reduce running costs. Also, I seem to recall they were specified to have regenerative braking but I'm not sure if that was ever implemented. Does anyone know if they do regenerate and whether that reduces the electric bill for Northern?

Overall having the 323 fleet instead of the 319s might be a financial improvement for Northern as well as a better product all round for the travellers.

507 001 · 17 Aug 2019

MarkWiles said:
I wonder if the 323s will actually be cheaper to operate for Northern? Being of alloy construction they should be lighter, which presumably will affect access charges and electricity consumption, and being three car I would have thought would also reduce running costs. Also, I seem to recall they were specified to have regenerative braking but I'm not sure if that was ever implemented. Does anyone know if they do regenerate and whether that reduces the electric bill for Northern?

Overall having the 323 fleet instead of the 319s might be a financial improvement for Northern as well as a better product all round for the travellers.

According to a traction manual I’ve found online they do indeed regenerate. The manual is from old northern days though so whether things have changed since I have no idea.

SansHache · 17 Aug 2019

507 001 said:
According to a traction manual I’ve found online they do indeed regenerate. The manual is from old northern days though so whether things have changed since I have no idea.

323s regenerate both on Northern and West Midlands routes. The West Mids units have energy meters fitted and are billed according to measured usage. I would expect 20% to 25% energy saving with regen on the commuter routes.

Jozhua · 17 Aug 2019

The Manchester/Bolton trains get super packed with a 4-car 319, so will these get replaced with 6-car 323 formations, 4-car 331 formations or a mixture of the two?

507021 · 18 Aug 2019

I'm made up the 323s are staying.

Whilst I like the 319s, I think the 323s are far better units.

Bovverboy · 18 Aug 2019

I'm happy with both 319s and 323s. The 319s are a bigger unit, whatever people might say, but I think their reliability has been a disappointment. But then, so has that of the 195s..

js1000 · 18 Aug 2019

Bovverboy said:
I'm happy with both 319s and 323s. The 319s are a bigger unit, whatever people might say, but I think their reliability has been a disappointment. But then, so has that of the 195s..

The 319s are practically life-expired. I've personally always found the dodgy doors unwilling to open on certain carriages occasionally to be concerning when there are passengers in the carriage.

Things are getting better with the 195s. The door issue which seemed to result from the position of where the train stopped in relation to the ASDO beacon is improving.

railfan100 · 18 Aug 2019

Jozhua said:
The Manchester/Bolton trains get super packed with a 4-car 319, so will these get replaced with 6-car 323 formations, 4-car 331 formations or a mixture of the two?

It is good news that they are staying, but sums up the plight for Northern when a 20+ year old EMU staying put is noteworthy....

Xenophon PCDGS · 18 Aug 2019

railfan100 said:
It is good news that they are staying, but sums up the plight for Northern when a 20+ year old EMU staying put is noteworthy....

Indeed this is the case, but Northern have us well trained, pantomime-like, to accept Class 142 (I used to once refer to these as "Newton Heath's finest") as an innovative way of travel, years before Vivarail stole that particular "innovative" crown with their "New trains for old" Class 230 units.

_toommm_ · 18 Aug 2019

This is slightly off-topic, but I've noticed on some of Northern's 323s the external hazard lights don't work, at least at Piccadilly.

I would have thought this would have been reported if it is an issue?

sd0733 · 18 Aug 2019

_toommm_ said:
This is slightly off-topic, but I've noticed on some of Northern's 323s the external hazard lights don't work, at least at Piccadilly.

I would have thought this would have been reported if it is an issue?

Not 100% this is the case on 323s so could be wrong but many units I work dont illuminate the hazard lights when the driver isnt keyed in. Seems more.plausible if it's more.often at Piccadilly that it's simply the guard gets there before the driver or the unit is left unlocked from its previous working

_toommm_ · 18 Aug 2019

sd0733 said:
Not 100% this is the case on 323s so could be wrong but many units I work dont illuminate the hazard lights when the driver isnt keyed in. Seems more.plausible if it's more.often at Piccadilly that it's simply the guard gets there before the driver or the unit is left unlocked from its previous working

Ahh I didn't know that - thank you for the insight!

DC2001 · 18 Aug 2019

Geeves said:
Salford Crescent, Bolton, Lostock, Horwich PW, Chorley and Buckshaw PW can all take six cars. Not too sure about Blackrod and Adlington.

I am sure that TPE (former franchise) used to stop 6-car 185's at Blackrod many years ago on the 07:21 service to Manchester Airport (I believe that it skipped Adlington as the platforms weren't long enough).

Blackrod was definitely temporarily extended during the Chorley Tunnel block when Northern were running very long trains and could quite easily be permanently extended again- I assume that the same was done at Adlington but I may be mistaken.

Grannyjoans · 18 Aug 2019

How long until these additional 323's start to arrive at Northern?

td97 · 18 Aug 2019

Airport - Blackpool via Bolton "expresses" are suitable for 2x323. The ones which used to run with 2x185 until May. Of course that service is expected to use 331s.
There could be a provision to add a 3rd diagram to the Preston/Victoria stopper with stops included at Kearsley/Farnworth/Moses Gate, which would provide 2tph for those stations.
Between now and 2021/22 is enough time for infill electrification to be completed. Time will tell

jonesy3001 · 18 Aug 2019

Grannyjoans said:
How long until these additional 323's start to arrive at Northern?

All depends on the new 730s for west midlands turning up after testing and driver training, i'd say 2021.

craigybagel · 18 Aug 2019

jonesy3001 said:
All depends on the new 730s for west midlands turning up after testing and driver training, i'd say 2021.

It's reliant on new trains from Bombardier arriving on time then...... o_O

DC2001 · 18 Aug 2019

td97 said:
There could be a provision to add a 3rd diagram to the Preston/Victoria stopper with stops included at Kearsley/Farnworth/Moses Gate, which would provide 2tph for those stations.

That would be a good idea if particularly if it was all stops Preston to Victoria which could interwork with the current Preston to Victoria all stops Bolton to Preston to increase reliability as the current short turnaround time at Victoria and Preston is not working with trains constantly having intermediate stops cancelled to catch up leaving 2-hour gaps between trains at Blackrod and Adlington.

Bovverboy · 18 Aug 2019

td97 said:
A
There could be a provision to add a 3rd diagram to the Preston/Victoria stopper with stops included at Kearsley/Farnworth/Moses Gate, which would provide 2tph for those stations.

Three diagrams on a two-hour round trip - wouldn't that give you a train every 40 minutes?

EDIT: No, I get you - three diagrams on a three-hour round trip. Well, I can see the logic, but it seems to be going from one extreme to the other.

DC2001 · 18 Aug 2019

Bovverboy said:
Three diagrams on a two-hour round trip - wouldn't that give you a train every 40 minutes?

I read that as three extra diagrams with one per hour each way calling at Kearsley, Farnworth and Moses Gate and increasing the time for turnaround at Preston and Victoria.

DC2001 said:
That would be a good idea if particularly if it was all stops Preston to Victoria which could interwork with the current Preston to Victoria all stops Bolton to Preston to increase reliability as the current short turnaround time at Victoria and Preston is not working with trains constantly having intermediate stops cancelled to catch up leaving 2-hour gaps between trains at Blackrod and Adlington.

Harvey B · 18 Aug 2019

Grannyjoans said:
How long until these additional 323's start to arrive at Northern?

A few years yet thats all I know from other forum users

Xenophon PCDGS · 19 Aug 2019

DC2001 said:
That would be a good idea if particularly if it was all stops Preston to Victoria which could interwork with the current Preston to Victoria all stops Bolton to Preston to increase reliability as the current short turnaround time at Victoria and Preston is not working with trains constantly having intermediate stops cancelled to catch up leaving 2-hour gaps between trains at Blackrod and Adlington.

"All stops" by its understood meaning would therefore have to include Clifton.

Northern 323s refurbishment and cascade

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