Hope Valley Capacity Scheme updates

Killingworth · 26 Apr 2019

On Modern Railways Twitter Feed this afternoon, which has been confirmed by Network Rail ; https://twitter.com/Modern_Railways/status/1121734714740625408

Hope Valley capacity scheme now authorised and getting underway. Opportunity to improve service for freight and passenger #ffcnorth

Recent indications were that the project was being recosted at today's prices and after necessary updates had been made and that should happen by May, so this seems about right. On track!

Next is to get contractors to confirm this and understanding is that should happen by October assuming it comes within the budget in the CP6 “enhancement pot.” Then it all has to be programmed with contractors taking account of likely weather and possessions . We may yet have tracks operating in 2022. 2021 would be a bit too much to expect, but 2023 may now be avoided.

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Roast Veg · 26 Apr 2019

Good news. What's the scope of the works as approved? Much the same as earlier in the thread?

Killingworth · 26 Apr 2019

Roast Veg said:
Good news. What's the scope of the works as approved? Much the same as earlier in the thread?

I've previously set out most of the details and it's all seemingly agreed as outlined - BUT it's whether the optional bits may not be being done that cause concern. Railway Magazine website has this resume; https://www.railwaymagazine.co.uk/5...mZKA5HgVFIKaSAm22eMWfPjUnFmvyyny4EKVt9sEnBEvc

naverag · 22 May 2019

edit: wrong thread

Jozhua · 5 Jun 2019

Just got on a Northern service from Sheffield to Manchester today for a very reasonable advance price! Took an hour and a half, but there was plenty of room and it was quite relaxing. The cheaper Northern advances seem like a great way of filling seats on what may otherwise be a less well used local service and saving passengers some money! It should also help relieve some capacity on the woeful TPE and slightly more bareable EMT services...

How much of a part does the DFT and Northern see these local trains on hope valley playing going into the future? Probably one of the few local routes that connects two big cities, so running as the budget offering while also connecting smaller communities and popular tourist destinations is great.

It's not becoming a Northern Connect route, however it mostly seeing the back of Pacers is great and perhaps more 156's in the future could really create a solid alternative offering. Will the opportunity for passing on the line allow for increased local frequency, or even semi express?

Killingworth · 5 Jun 2019

Jozhua said:
Just got on a Northern service from Sheffield to Manchester today for a very reasonable advance price! Took an hour and a half, but there was plenty of room and it was quite relaxing. The cheaper Northern advances seem like a great way of filling seats on what may otherwise be a less well used local service and saving passengers some money! It should also help relieve some capacity on the woeful TPE and slightly more bareable EMT services...

How much of a part does the DFT and Northern see these local trains on hope valley playing going into the future? Probably one of the few local routes that connects two big cities, so running as the budget offering while also connecting smaller communities and popular tourist destinations is great.

It's not becoming a Northern Connect route, however it mostly seeing the back of Pacers is great and perhaps more 156's in the future could really create a solid alternative offering. Will the opportunity for passing on the line allow for increased local frequency, or even semi express?

An advance single from Sheffield to Manchester can cost as much as £21.60 or as little as £5. Go by Northern at 12.14 on Saturday for £5.50 or TPE at 12.11 for £21.10. 51 minutes at top price or 77 minutes for a fraction of the cost. No wonder the Northern trains get overloaded at weekends.

Currently there are capacity issues for all 3 TOCs, a ll of which need more carriages at peak times.

Once the capacity scheme becomes operational the services should be more reliable. A further hourly fast service should be added, possibly by Northern, maybe it could be semi-fast with limited stops.

tonysk14 · 5 Jun 2019

Killingworth said:
An advance single from Sheffield to Manchester can cost as much as £21.60 or as little as £5. Go by Northern at 12.14 on Saturday for £5.50 or TPE at 22.11 for £21.10. 51 minutes at top price or 77 minutes for a fraction of the cost. No wonder the Northern trains get overloaded at weekends.

Currently there are capacity issues for all 3 TOCs, a ll of which need more carriages at peak times.

Once the capacity scheme becomes operational the services should be more reliable. A further hourly fast service should be added, possibly by Northern, maybe it could be semi-fast with limited stops.

Are all TPE services supposed to go to 6 car (2 x 185) after the Nova fleet is introduced

Jozhua · 5 Jun 2019

tonysk14 said:
Are all TPE services supposed to go to 6 car (2 x 185) after the Nova fleet is introduced

I believe so, although we could be waiting a while, considering another two month wait is expected for the Mark 5A fleet and even longer for the 397's and 802's!

Killingworth · 5 Jun 2019

tonysk14 said:
Are all TPE services supposed to go to 6 car (2 x 185) after the Nova fleet is introduced

Yes, but.... there may be platform availability constraints once the stock is available, most particularly at Piccadilly and the Airport. That may require some judicious splitting and joining with appropriate guidance to passengers to ensure they end up at their correct destinations.

class 9 · 6 Jun 2019

Before any additional services are added over the Hope Valley there needs to be a re jig of the timetable from Dore to Sheffield on the down line(towards Sheffield) at the moment between xx56 and xx12 each hour 5 services are squeezed in this 16 minute period, if say the first one is 5 late for example, the knock on effects 4 services.

Ianno87 · 6 Jun 2019

class 9 said:
Before any additional services are added over the Hope Valley there needs to be a re jig of the timetable from Dore to Sheffield on the down line(towards Sheffield) at the moment between xx56 and xx12 each hour 5 services are squeezed in this 16 minute period, if say the first one is 5 late for example, the knock on effects 4 services.

OK. Let's re-timetable quite literally the entire country then (looking at the services involved)....

Killingworth · 6 Jun 2019

class 9 said:
Before any additional services are added over the Hope Valley there needs to be a re jig of the timetable from Dore to Sheffield on the down line(towards Sheffield) at the moment between xx56 and xx12 each hour 5 services are squeezed in this 16 minute period, if say the first one is 5 late for example, the knock on effects 4 services.

Back in 1900 they decided traffic between Dore and Sheffield justified quadrupling and it was done, fast lines to the west side of the Sheaf valley, slow to the east. The crossover at Dore Station Junction was taken too fast in 1908 causing a dramatic derailment but changed priority between the two pairs wasn't made for many years. By 1985 it was all narrowed to 2 tracks and a Tesco's supermarket built on part of the trackbed.

HS2 work should include adding a third track and raising 8 bridges. By about 2033 if it goes to plan. Too late and too little, but redoubling at Dore has been in planning since before 2005 and won't be in place until 2022 if we're lucky.

Killingworth · 6 Jun 2019

class 9 said:
Before any additional services are added over the Hope Valley there needs to be a re jig of the timetable from Dore to Sheffield on the down line(towards Sheffield) at the moment between xx56 and xx12 each hour 5 services are squeezed in this 16 minute period, if say the first one is 5 late for example, the knock on effects 4 services.

There might as well be a platform at Dore on that northbound track at present as almost half mainline trains stop to let westbound trains cross for the Hope Valley, or join from that direction! The current crossovers are no longer fit for the traffic they have to carry. Subject to confirmation of the final layout that crossover time should be reduced, but not eliminated. It will continue to feed delays across the nation for decades. That's the issue with many hundreds of crossovers across the nation. Peterborough is an expensive example of resolving just one bottleneck.

class 9 · 6 Jun 2019

Ianno87 said:
OK. Let's re-timetable quite literally the entire country then (looking at the services involved)....

Sarky t**t
Helpful reply there pal, the services I mentioned on the Dore- -Sheffield corridor does have scope for re jigging that wouldn't require massive rewriting of the timetable. There's an 18 minute gap after the Northbound XC.

Killingworth · 6 Jun 2019

class 9 said:
Sarky t**t
Helpful reply there pal, the services I mentioned on the Dore- -Sheffield corridor does have scope for re jigging that wouldn't require massive rewriting of the timetable. There's an 18 minute gap after the Northbound XC.

This isn't the place to introduce the proposal to reinstate the two mainline platforms at Dore and totally scramble the nation's timetabling.

class 9 · 6 Jun 2019

I didn't mention anything about reinstating any mainline platforms.

Killingworth · 6 Jun 2019

class 9 said:
I didn't mention anything about reinstating any mainline platforms.

You didn't, and neither did I regarding detail, but a feasibility study was completed only a few years ago and it may not be dead.

Killingworth · 9 Jun 2019

Yesterday Leander hauled the Scarborough Flyer from Manchester Victoria to Scarborough via the Hope Valley. It was a dismal, wet morning but I viewed the passage at Grindleford and followed down to Sheffield to catch it again (it's 11 coaches were held for about 20 minutes outside Sheffield for Platform 1).

Hope Valley Capacity. It's not just tracks, it's length of trains. Morning weekend Hope Valley stopping trains are usually busy with walkers and cyclists, but yesterday it was scantily dressed young ladies going to an event in Manchester.

Currently Northern provide 2 car Pacers, 150 or 156s. Trans Pennine provide 3 car 185s with first. East Midlands try to provide 4 car 158s, but could include 156 or 153s and quite often it's only 2 cars.

I've previously drawn attention to the price differentials. Despite costing twice the price on TPE their trains were packed, crushed standing room only. I took the 11.14 Northern to Hathersage. A Pacer rammed so full the guard struggled to get aboard. It's luggage racks were stuffed. Not with back packs but large suitcases for holidays, almost certainly going to Manchester Airport. At Dore 2 cyclists were turned away, no more room. By the time I reached Hathersage I was very glad to be released and am not surprised by stories of people having to leave the train before reaching their intended destination due to the conditions.

Capacity, price, time, convenience. If TPE operated their long promised 6 car trains it would take off pressure, but if a price war continues Northern have to operate more than 2 car 150s. Single unit Pacers are totally inadequate.

As the track improvements won't be available before late 2022 at best the platform lengthening at Grindleford, Hope and Hathersage needs to be done pdq to allow longer stopping trains. Its supposed to happen by November. Hathersage entails addition of new extra length and may be easier than recommissioning disused platforms at Grindleford and Hope that are now well below the current track level.

There is pent up demand on this line, stifled by inadequate capacity that is fairly easy to resolve. Maybe the regular crush on far away Platforms 8a and 2c at Sheffield doesn't get seen by those in control, but a few more carriages would make so much difference. And that applies regardless of completion of the Hope Valley Capacity Improvement Scheme.

Jozhua · 10 Jun 2019

Killingworth said:
Yesterday Leander hauled the Scarborough Flyer from Manchester Victoria to Scarborough via the Hope Valley. It was a dismal, wet morning but I viewed the passage at Grindleford and followed down to Sheffield to catch it again (it's 11 coaches were held for about 20 minutes outside Sheffield for Platform 1).

Hope Valley Capacity. It's not just tracks, it's length of trains. Morning weekend Hope Valley stopping trains are usually busy with walkers and cyclists, but yesterday it was scantily dressed young ladies going to an event in Manchester.

Currently Northern provide 2 car Pacers, 150 or 156s. Trans Pennine provide 3 car 185s with first. East Midlands try to provide 4 car 158s, but could include 156 or 153s and quite often it's only 2 cars.

I've previously drawn attention to the price differentials. Despite costing twice the price on TPE their trains were packed, crushed standing room only. I took the 11.14 Northern to Hathersage. A Pacer rammed so full the guard struggled to get aboard. It's luggage racks were stuffed. Not with back packs but large suitcases for holidays, almost certainly going to Manchester Airport. At Dore 2 cyclists were turned away, no more room. By the time I reached Hathersage I was very glad to be released and am not surprised by stories of people having to leave the train before reaching their intended destination due to the conditions.

Capacity, price, time, convenience. If TPE operated their long promised 6 car trains it would take off pressure, but if a price war continues Northern have to operate more than 2 car 150s. Single unit Pacers are totally inadequate.

As the track improvements won't be available before late 2022 at best the platform lengthening at Grindleford, Hope and Hathersage needs to be done pdq to allow longer stopping trains. Its supposed to happen by November. Hathersage entails addition of new extra length and may be easier than recommissioning disused platforms at Grindleford and Hope that are now well below the current track level.

There is pent up demand on this line, stifled by inadequate capacity that is fairly easy to resolve. Maybe the regular crush on far away Platforms 8a and 2c at Sheffield doesn't get seen by those in control, but a few more carriages would make so much difference. And that applies regardless of completion of the Hope Valley Capacity Improvement Scheme. View attachment 64226

Everyone was heading to Parklife in Manchester! One thing I've noticed with train companies and Northern in particular is poor preparation for events...Not just on the Hope Valley line, but across the network. They act suprised when 11pm trains get rammed at Manchester Victoria when an event has just finished above them and they decided to put a 2 car pacer on because it's late at night...

I happen to have the choice as to whether or not I use the line very often as I use it to see family. Obviously, I would like to be able to do this more frequently than once every month or two, however, the conditions on the line and high pricing often make a shorter trip unjustified. Once there is more capacity, or more favourable prices are available, I will likely be using this route more often. Definitely makes sense that there will be other people in my position who will use it more heavily once the capacity is there...

A 2 carriage 156 would probably add a noticeable boost to capacity, with longer carriages and a more efficient seating layout. It would also make the service quite competitive with EMT, especially when they run 158+156 combos or 156/153's...

Killingworth · 10 Jun 2019

Jozhua said:
Everyone was heading to Parklife in Manchester! One thing I've noticed with train companies and Northern in particular is poor preparation for events...Not just on the Hope Valley line, but across the network. They act suprised when 11pm trains get rammed at Manchester Victoria when an event has just finished above them and they decided to put a 2 car pacer on because it's late at night...

I happen to have the choice as to whether or not I use the line very often as I use it to see family. Obviously, I would like to be able to do this more frequently than once every month or two, however, the conditions on the line and high pricing often make a shorter trip unjustified. Once there is more capacity, or more favourable prices are available, I will likely be using this route more often. Definitely makes sense that there will be other people in my position who will use it more heavily once the capacity is there...

A 2 carriage 156 would probably add a noticeable boost to capacity, with longer carriages and a more efficient seating layout. It would also make the service quite competitive with EMT, especially when they run 158+156 combos or 156/153's...

The Northern 10.14 out of Sheffield this Saturday was a 150 and the previous weekend they were running 150 and 156 units. On busy days they also struggle to cope. The quantities of back packs for the Hope Valley and luggage to and from Manchester Airport, plus a few bikes, soon fill the space - picture is of 2 older citizens taking 10 minutes to stow their touring bikes and heavy panniers on a 150 having found a lighter bike in their way! 50 years ago they'd all have had to pay for their bikes and taking all that space I'd not disagree if that were the case today. The guard was trapped in the rear cab by them all.

It needs 6 coach TPE trains for the through traffic. Northern undercut their fares by big margins, sometimes as little as 25% of their fare for a single journey on a Saturday morning, which is ridiculous. More coaches needed, and for a loss making company, why such big discounts on trains that are so full even the guard has difficulty getting aboard?!

Killingworth · 17 Aug 2019

Sadly it seems the project is proceeding very slowly, but is going forwards. Tenders are unlikely to be returned and vetted before next autumn when the finance has to be reconfirmed. Then the actual scheduling of work has to be calculated with blockades to cover earthworks on embankments and cuttings, laying and slewing tracks, and bridge works. Maintaining route availability for freight services will be challenging so Easter and Christmas times are almost certain dates for longer blockades.

This means significant work on the ground can't start before 2021, and possibly not substantially until 2022. Whether any can be pulled forward remains to be seen. It looks increasing unlikely that trains will be able to use the new tracks until 2023, and maybe not until the end of 2023 for scheduled services at that. Any third service will not start until TransPennine are into any extension of their franchise that currently runs to 31st March 2023. I understand the latest idea might be Liverpool - Leicester.

However, coming up on the rails is that other TransPennine Route Upgrade. A much bigger project. If the time this one is taking is any guide that won't be completed before 2030. When blockades are required for that this 3rd South Pennine path may need to be used for a diverted Liverpool - Scarborough or Hull! Maybe Newcastle might have to go via Carlisle, the first trans north Pennine route, but that's going to be a story for many other threads

Llandudno · 17 Aug 2019

Good god - 4 years to double track a couple of miles of railway and update the signalling.

The Shard took 3.5 years to build and the Channel Tunnel, once they actually started only took 6 years!

yorksrob · 17 Aug 2019

It does seem shocking. This seems like the sort of project that ought to be low hanging fruit.

InOban · 17 Aug 2019

It is always easier and faster to build something new than to work alongside an existing structure. Nevertheless it does seem an extraordinarily long time. Maybe Scotland needs to lend you some of our project planners.

tbtc · 17 Aug 2019

Killingworth said:
The Northern 10.14 out of Sheffield this Saturday was a 150 and the previous weekend they were running 150 and 156 units. On busy days they also struggle to cope. The quantities of back packs for the Hope Valley and luggage to and from Manchester Airport, plus a few bikes, soon fill the space - picture is of 2 older citizens taking 10 minutes to stow their touring bikes and heavy panniers on a 150 having found a lighter bike in their way! 50 years ago they'd all have had to pay for their bikes and taking all that space I'd not disagree if that were the case today. The guard was trapped in the rear cab by them all.

It needs 6 coach TPE trains for the through traffic. Northern undercut their fares by big margins, sometimes as little as 25% of their fare for a single journey on a Saturday morning, which is ridiculous. More coaches needed, and for a loss making company, why such big discounts on trains that are so full even the guard has difficulty getting aboard?!

One problem they have is that Platform 2C can't accommodate doubled up units, which makes running longer Hope Valley services more complicated (nothing else can use 2C as there's nothing short enough terminating from the south).

InOban said:
It is always easier and faster to build something new than to work alongside an existing structure. Nevertheless it does seem an extraordinarily long time. Maybe Scotland needs to lend you some of our project planners.

Hence why I'm a fan of HS2, rather than tinkering around the edges of the living railway, disrupting existing passengers by having to close for periods. Much simpler to build new alignments away from the current lines (which, I appreciate isn't a viable solution at Dore, but should be kept in mind when we consider months of evening/Sunday closures to give sufficient time to upgrade Victorian routes)

Bald Rick · 17 Aug 2019

Killingworth said:
Sadly it seems the project is proceeding very slowly, but is going forwards. Tenders are unlikely to be returned and vetted before next autumn when the finance has to be reconfirmed. Then the actual scheduling of work has to be calculated with blockades to cover earthworks on embankments and cuttings, laying and slewing tracks, and bridge works. Maintaining route availability for freight services will be challenging so Easter and Christmas times are almost certain dates for longer blockades.

This means significant work on the ground can't start before 2021, and possibly not substantially until 2022. Whether any can be pulled forward remains to be seen. It looks increasing unlikely that trains will be able to use the new tracks until 2023, and maybe not until the end of 2023 for scheduled services at that. Any third service will not start until TransPennine are into any extension of their franchise that currently runs to 31st March 2023. I understand the latest idea might be Liverpool - Leicester.

However, coming up on the rails is that other TransPennine Route Upgrade. A much bigger project. If the time this one is taking is any guide that won't be completed before 2030. When blockades are required for that this 3rd South Pennine path may need to be used for a diverted Liverpool - Scarborough or Hull! Maybe Newcastle might have to go via Carlisle, the first trans north Pennine route, but that's going to be a story for many other threads

There’s absolutely nothing to stop the work being scheduled, and possessions arranged, before tenders are even invited, let alone returned. This is done all the time.

Killingworth · 17 Aug 2019

Bald Rick said:
There’s absolutely nothing to stop the work being scheduled, and possessions arranged, before tenders are even invited, let alone returned. This is done all the time.

So it's prevarication! However, my understanding is that until tenders are all in and the confirmed price tickets added up the finance can't finally be signed off by DfT, contractors then authorised to go, work phasing finalised and blockades confirmed.

Whatever, it's taking a very long time to resolve this bottleneck. Back in the early 1980s there'd be one fast train an hour in each direction and a stopper at best 2 hourly, with a few freights over the day. A maximum of 3 or 4 an hour along the 2/3 mile single line stretch through the station. Today it's 6 an hour minimum. What's more there are more freights going round the Dore curve to go south and passenger traffic on the mainline has also increased significantly.

When the line was singled in 1985 the quite reasonable rationale with the then current timetable was to taper the Dore Station Junction crossovers to increase line speeds and save maintenance on the bridge and old island platform.

Very quickly the situation changed when traffic started to increase and plans to redouble were appearing in Railtracks' list of things to consider. By 2005 the first public sighting of the intention appeared in Sheffield City Council's Planning Department; Provision of a new platform and footbridge (Application for determination if approval required for design and siting)

The project grew to include passing loops at Chinley, Bamford and Dore, the Chinley loop being withdrawn after the first of three rounds of public consultations. End 2018 was when it was all supposed to be in place and working, but that was before the public inquiry. Most recently lengthening of the Heeley loop has been added in.

From start of the original planning to final completion this project seems to have been providing work for rail planning staff for about 20 years.

HS2 is supposed to come down the Sheaf Valley by 2033 requiring all tracks to be tripled from Dore into Sheffield. Up to 8 road bridges will need lifting or reconstruction. That will require a few more blockades. (Bradway tunnel and bridges from there to Chesterfield and out to the junction with the HS2 proper will presumably need yet more blockades.)

(Platform 2C at Sheffield might be lengthened to squeeze in 3 carriages with a little demolition work, but 4 would require more drastic station alterations.)

Killingworth · 17 Aug 2019

tbtc said:
One problem they have is that Platform 2C can't accommodate doubled up units, which makes running longer Hope Valley services more complicated (nothing else can use 2C as there's nothing short enough terminating from the south).

Allowing all through platforms (1, 2, 5 and 6) to service two trains in both directions and to pass one another would help with that. 8 can potentially take two trains as long as one is going north and the other south.

Hope Valley evening trains are often 4 coaches and use the south end of Platform 1.

tbtc · 17 Aug 2019

Killingworth said:
Allowing all through platforms (1, 2, 5 and 6) to service two trains in both directions and to pass one another would help with that. 8 can potentially take two trains as long as one is going north and the other south.

Hope Valley evening trains are often 4 coaches and use the south end of Platform 1.

Don't get me wrong, I'd like longer trains on the Hope Valley route (and on other Sheffield services) - I'm just trying to defend the much-maligned Northern franchise for once - sadly the infrastructure doesn't make terminating their Hope Valley service easy (during the middle of the day) when it's doubled up (as it can't fit into the tiny bay platform).

That's not to say that Northern would necessarily run longer trains even if NR did spend millions of pounds on the infrastructure to permit it, mind :lol:

Killingworth · 18 Aug 2019

tbtc said:
Don't get me wrong, I'd like longer trains on the Hope Valley route (and on other Sheffield services) - I'm just trying to defend the much-maligned Northern franchise for once - sadly the infrastructure doesn't make terminating their Hope Valley service easy (during the middle of the day) when it's doubled up (as it can't fit into the tiny bay platform).

That's not to say that Northern would necessarily run longer trains even if NR did spend millions of pounds on the infrastructure to permit it, mind

Today Northern can't operate a 2 x 15x train in service on the Hope Valley line due to short platforms. That's due to be remedied by the end of the year, originally supposed to be in time for December timetable changes but it may have slipped a week or two, see North of England Platform Extension Programme.

Whether they will have the rolling stock to run many longer trains remains to be seen - and also whether they could collect all the ticket revenue if they did. At present the rear unit is locked out on westward journeys by a coupled 142 and 150 most evenings.

Hope Valley Capacity Scheme updates

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