Requirement to find the guard?

TurbostarFan · 17 Aug 2019

yorkie said:
I don't understand some of the references to driver only operation in this thread; some people mistakenly thinks this method of operation is linked to whether or not a member of staff with ticket issuing facilities who is willing and able to sell tickets is present. But that isn't the case; out of the 6 trains I have caught in the last couple of days I have only had my ticket checked on the 4 DOO services, despite travelling many hundreds of miles on trains with a guard, on which there was no sign of anyone checking or issuing tickets.

The method of operation of the train is a separate concept to whether or not tickets will be sold on a train.

I hope this clears up the confusion!

My point was more that if a guard is present than the presence of a member of staff is guaranteed. But on DOO there might not necessarily be one so you can't rely on being able to buy onboard. But fair point will be more clear from now on

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bionic · 18 Aug 2019

Signal Head said:
For what it's worth, the Staff Travel advice documentation contains the following:
"Only if the ticket office is closed, and there is no local ‘promise to pay’ in use, can you buy a Priv-rate ticket on board a train. You must actively seek out staff on-board the train, have your fare ready and offer to pay it at the first available opportunity. By offering to pay there can be no question that you are trying to travel without paying." (my emphasis).

High Dyke said:
Funnily enough I had that very challenge the other week. I boarded a DOO service at a station on a Saturday morning, but the ticket office is only open Monday - Friday, there is a TVM, but it can't sell a PRIV rate ticket - there's no local Permit machine either. I travelled to the end of the line (1 station) where the ticket office is open all day. Had no problems purchasing a PRIV rate ticket. So in some respects it can be easier for a member of public to stand a better chance of purchasing a ticket than a rail employee.

In many cases its physically impossible to buy a PRIV ticket unless you do it in advance. Bat & Ball to Shoreham being an example of two nearby stations without manned ticket offices and only DOO trains operating between them. There's no way of buying a PRIV.

In the evenings (and quite often in the middle of the day) this extends to the vast majority of stations in SE London. Its physically impossible to buy privs for the journey as ticket offices are closed. I can think of a number of ticket offices that are often shut during the hours they are advertised as being open... often with crude handwritten signs placed over the window.

When travelling into central London from one of these stations but requiring a through ticket including the tube you are then forced to stand in line at a majorly busy ticket office to get your ticket. It's a pain in the arse.

SussexMan · 18 Aug 2019

yorkie said:
Your interpretation is wrong.

My interpretation was that I should take reasonable action to purchase a ticket. As you seem confident that my interpretation is wrong, are you able to provide anything to support your opinion? If I get on a train and the guard is in the same carriage as me I personally think it would be reasonable to approach them. I don't think it would be unreasonable on a two-carriage train to pop into the other carriage to see if there was a guard available.

yorkie said:
Can you explain how "as soon as you are reasonably able" equates to walking up and down a train, changing units if necessary, knocking on doors to find a "guard" who may or may not be able or willing to issue tickets and who may not even exist.

No I can't explain that, but then I never mentioned changing units, banging on doors - you mentioned those. I wouldn't be banging on doors, that's not reasonable in my opinion. Equally I don't think it reasonable to have to walk from carriage 1 to 12 to check.

yorkie said:
Quite frankly, you've made that up!

What have I made up? If anything I suggest that you have made up that I said we should bang on doors, change units etc.

Hadders said:
6.1 does not say there is a requirement to seek out the guard.

I never said it did - but it does say that you should purchase your ticket as soon as you are reasonably able.

Hadders said:
The vast majority of the trains I travel on are 240m long. Am I really expected to walk up and down looking for the guard who I won’t find as there isn’t one!

No I doubt that would be "reasonable".

My post was a question of what could be considered "reasonable". The replies ignored that and jumped to extremes which clearly (in my opinion) wouldn't be reasonable. Do I take it that your definition of "reasonably able" is "you have to do nothing other than wait in your seat until asked if you need a ticket"? If that is your opinion, do you have anything to support that?

Hadders · 18 Aug 2019

My view is that it is not reasonable for passengers to actively seek out the guard.

A guards primary duty is the safety of the train. They should not be distracted from this duty by having to deal with passengers requesting tickets when they might be engaged on safety related duties

If TOCs provided sufficient ticketing facilities at all stations then we wouldn't need to have this discussion. That is they key issue as far as I am concerned.

najaB · 18 Aug 2019

Most of this discussion depends on what is meant by "seek out". There has been some impressive strawman killing (c.f. references to wandering about knocking on doors), whereas a more natural interpretation is one where the passenger merely seeks to make himself obvious to the guard.

Perhaps by attempting to board at the door that the guard is using (if practical), or if there is a choice of seats, choosing one that is more rather than less likely to catch the guard's attention, through to perhaps something as simple as a wave to the guard to ensure that they have seen you.

sheff1 · 18 Aug 2019

SussexMan said:
I don't think it would be unreasonable on a two-carriage train to pop into the other carriage to see if there was a guard available.

Best of luck 'popping' into the other carriage on crush loaded two-carriage trains in Northernland. The passengers who you would be forced to push past might, though, consider your actions to be rather unreasonable.

Saperstein · 18 Aug 2019

Been following this thread with interest.

My situation is somewhat different, and I believe there is an easement somewhere.

I’m the holder of a disabled railcard and ISTR that if it is not possible due to disability to use ticket issuing facilities then it is ok to buy on the train or whatever.

I interpret this to mean I cannot be penalised on the train or at the destination station.

Most of my journeys of late, have been within Merseyside and to/from Chester so is well covered by open ticket offices for the most part.

I usually buy a ticket in advance anyway if I know I’ll need to travel.

But if I find myself in unfamiliar territory and cannot access ticket issuing facilities due to a staircase say?

Once I get sat down I seldom move so won’t be seeking out a member of the crew unless it’s an emergency. Pretty pointless trying anyway if I’m at the front of a 507/8 and it’s a 6 car.

Saperstein.

js1000 · 18 Aug 2019

The "seek guard at earliest opportunity to purchase a ticket" (or similarly phrased) is legally non-existent. The train operating companies like to pretend it exists to make passengers buy a ticket.

In reality, there are many other factors at play that would make this difficult to enforce. How busy the train is? Which train the guard is in? Typically in Northernland the driver is in the front unit and guard in the rear if it's a double with no gangway. And if there is a guard at all if it's driver operated?

yorkie · 19 Aug 2019

MPotter said:
My point was more that if a guard is present than the presence of a member of staff is guaranteed.

This is absolutely no guarantee that the member of staff is able to sell tickets, or that they are in a passenger part of the train.

MPotter said:
But on DOO there might not necessarily be one so you can't rely on being able to buy onboard. But fair point will be more clear from now on

Please read my posts above again. I had my train checked on about 10 DOO trains in the past few days, with few checks on trains with Guards. The method of operation of the train is an irrelevance.

SussexMan said:
My interpretation was that I should take reasonable action to purchase a ticket. As you seem confident that my interpretation is wrong, are you able to provide anything to support your opinion? If I get on a train and the guard is in the same carriage as me I personally think it would be reasonable to approach them. I don't think it would be unreasonable on a two-carriage train to pop into the other carriage to see if there was a guard available.

Do whatever you want but there is no requirement to do this, and anyone who does not do as you do is not being unreasonable.

SussexMan said:
No I can't explain that, but then I never mentioned changing units, banging on doors - you mentioned those. I wouldn't be banging on doors, that's not reasonable in my opinion.

I never said anyone in particular said this, but these are all arguments that some people have erroneously used.

SussexMan said:
Equally I don't think it reasonable to have to walk from carriage 1 to 12 to check.

Again you can decide what you think is reasonable, as long as you do not suggest that anyone who has done nothing wrong is acting unreasonably.

SussexMan said:
What have I made up? If anything I suggest that you have made up that I said we should bang on doors, change units etc.

If you are giving your opinion about what you would do, that's your prerogative, but it has no real relevance to what others should be doing.

SussexMan said:
My post was a question of what could be considered "reasonable". The replies ignored that and jumped to extremes which clearly (in my opinion) wouldn't be reasonable. Do I take it that your definition of "reasonably able" is "you have to do nothing other than wait in your seat until asked if you need a ticket"? If that is your opinion, do you have anything to support that?

The onus is on you to suggest people should do anything other than that.

Saperstein said:
...Once I get sat down I seldom move so won’t be seeking out a member of the crew unless it’s an emergency. Pretty pointless trying anyway if I’m at the front of a 507/8 and it’s a 6 car...

There absolutely no requirement for you to go seeking anyone, and in any case if you are travelling on a Merseyrail train, there are no on-board staff who can sell tickets, unless a revenue protection inspector/officer/team is also present on the train; Merseyrail Guards are non-commercial.

185143 · 19 Aug 2019

aar0 said:
In SWT land I've often only just caught a train from a barriered station with unmanned and open barriers, which I would have missed had I stopped to use a TVM. I've then gone straight to the guard to ask for a ticket, and have often been told that they shouldn't really sell one but as I've gone straight to them its ok.

I remember the last time I did that on Northern. The guard agreed to sell me a ticket, albeit reluctantly, and told me to take a seat by the local door which I did. Once the train set off she then promptly came straight to me as expected, then sold me an undisounted Anytime! I was rather unimpressed! It was around twice as much as I was expecting to pay as well.

TurbostarFan · 19 Aug 2019

185143 said:
I remember the last time I did that on Northern. The guard agreed to sell me a ticket, albeit reluctantly, and told me to take a seat by the local door which I did. Once the train set off she then promptly came straight to me as expected, then sold me an undisounted Anytime! I was rather unimpressed! It was around twice as much as I was expecting to pay as well.

Were there facilities to buy before you board? If so then (subject to certain exemptions) you were lucky not to be prosecuted or charged a PF if you had boarded the train before approaching the guard.

TurbostarFan · 19 Aug 2019

yorkie said:
Please read my posts above again. I had my train checked on about 10 DOO trains in the past few days, with few checks on trains with Guards. The method of operation of the train is an irrelevance.

Alright I accept your point, fair enough. But if the station you board at is expressly designated as a Pay On Train station (or lacks ticket purchasing facilities for the method you want to use) then expecting to be able to buy a ticket onboard or at the very least at your destination at no extra cost is perfectly reasonable in my opinion.

najaB · 19 Aug 2019

MPotter said:
But if the station you board at is expressly designated as a Pay On Train station (or lacks ticket purchasing facilities for the method you want to use) then expecting to be able to buy a ticket onboard or at the very least at your destination at no extra cost is perfectly reasonable in my opinion.

Not just a reasonable expectation, but an explicitly defined right!

gray1404 · 19 Aug 2019

It appears that Transport Investigations Limited and Transport for Wales are the two main offenders in giving at false information in telling customers that it is their requirement to find the guard. This includes stating such when a customer has not had prior opportunity to purchase. They both need to stop giving out false information.

Saperstein · 19 Aug 2019

gray1404 said:
It appears that Transport Investigations Limited and Transport for Wales are the two main offenders in giving at false information in telling customers that it is their requirement to find the guard. This includes stating such when a customer has not had prior opportunity to purchase. They both need to stop giving out false information.

Indeed. Here’s their “advice” on the Chester-bound platform at Frodsham.

Saperstein.

TurbostarFan · 19 Aug 2019

Saperstein said:
Indeed. Here’s their “advice” on the Chester-bound platform at Frodsham.

Saperstein.

View attachment 67444

Fair point, this could be taken to mean that you must "seek out" the guard.

Haywain · 19 Aug 2019

Saperstein said:
Indeed. Here’s their “advice” on the Chester-bound platform at Frodsham.

Saperstein.

What is wrong with that?

najaB · 19 Aug 2019

Haywain said:
What is wrong with that?

Indeed. It's saying that you must purchase from the conductor on the train but doesn't say that you have to seek out the conductor.

TurbostarFan · 19 Aug 2019

najaB said:
Indeed. It's saying that you must purchase from the conductor on the train but doesn't say that you have to seek out the conductor.

But how else are you supposed to buy from the conductor if they don't seek you out first?

the chairman · 19 Aug 2019

There are obviously times when it's difficult to board in a part of the train where a purchase is easily made. TfW and their agent have to contend with large numbers of people deliberately travelling without pre-purchase, and those joining at stations without facilities, who always join the train in the unit the guard is not travelling in. Add those who don't respond when callovers are made and you've got serious problems. BTW, all of these categories of evaders are liable to prosecution if the evidence is there, i.e. observation.

Saperstein · 19 Aug 2019

Haywain said:
What is wrong with that?

I guess it’s ambiguous.

I read it as saying you must buy on the train, so if that is mandatory then it stands to reason it’s saying you must seek out the conductor.

Saperstein

TurbostarFan · 19 Aug 2019

the chairman said:
TfW and their agent have to contend with large numbers of people deliberately travelling without pre-purchase, and those joining at stations without facilities, who always join the train in the unit the guard is not travelling in. Add those who don't respond when callovers are made and you've got serious problems. BTW, all of these categories of evaders are liable to prosecution if the evidence is there, i.e. observation.

Not necessarily, simply joining the train in a unit the guard is not in is not a criminal offence. However doing that and then subsequently walking out the other end without paying could be, even if they are willing to pay when challenged.

Saperstein · 19 Aug 2019

najaB said:
Indeed. It's saying that you must purchase from the conductor on the train but doesn't say that you have to seek out the conductor.

see my reply to @Haywain

The guard on our rather crowded 150 tonight did actually walk through checking tickets and announcing the next stop several times. (I guess the PA wasn’t working).

One bloke sat a few rows away from me bought a ticket from him, I don’t know what was sold but he got on at Liverpool Lime Street so really no excuse (the higher numbered platforms at LIV are un-barried for some reason).

Saperstein

Llanigraham · 19 Aug 2019

I note lots of members here are stating that this "instruction" has no legal standing, but:

1) Has it ever been tested in Court?

2) Can someone point me to the EXACT part of the various Acts that states it isn't allowed?

TurbostarFan · 19 Aug 2019

Llanigraham said:
I note lots of members here are stating that this "instruction" has no legal standing, but:

1) Has it ever been tested in Court?

2) Can someone point me to the EXACT part of the various Acts that states it isn't allowed?

The Regulation of the Railway Act 1889 only makes it an offence to travel without having previously paid the fare if you intend to avoid paying the fare. An example of this would be deliberately boarding in a unit of the train which does not have a guard in and then doing a runner at your destination. Or flat out refusing to pay the guard, even if you give your name and address and offer to pay next week.

Llanigraham · 19 Aug 2019

MPotter said:
The Regulation of the Railway Act 1889 only makes it an offence to travel without having previously paid the fare if you intend to avoid paying the fare. An example of this would be deliberately boarding in a unit of the train which does not have a guard in and then doing a runner at your destination. Or flat out refusing to pay the guard, even if you give your name and address and offer to pay next week.

Fine, but that doesn't actually answer my second question.

TurbostarFan · 20 Aug 2019

Llanigraham said:
Fine, but that doesn't actually answer my second question.

I accept it doesn't, I don't know if it has been tested in court and I don't know about any Act of Parliament but I will add that Byelaws 17 and 18 only requires that a ticket must be purchased prior to board if ticket purchasing facilities are available. It doesn't require purchasing one from the guard if they are not available.

rs101 · 20 Aug 2019

Llanigraham said:
Fine, but that doesn't actually answer my second question.

Can you point to any legislation which requires a customer to seek out the guard? And if how, how does that accomodate those not able to seek out the guard for any reason (disability, small children, luggage, crowded trains, etc). It'd also require some way for the customer to know there is even a guard on the train to seek out

Llanigraham · 20 Aug 2019

rs101 said:
Can you point to any legislation which requires a customer to seek out the guard? And if how, how does that accomodate those not able to seek out the guard for any reason (disability, small children, luggage, crowded trains, etc). It'd also require some way for the customer to know there is even a guard on the train to seek out

Again that doesn't answer my questions.
Several people on here have stated that this instruction has no legal standing and I am interested in whether this is an assumption or not.
I am not saying that it is a requirement.
What I am looking for is an actual legal definition.

rs101 · 20 Aug 2019

Llanigraham said:
Again that doesn't answer my questions.
Several people on here have stated that this instruction has no legal standing and I am interested in whether this is an assumption or not.
I am not saying that it is a requirement.
What I am looking for is an actual legal definition.

I could equally say that there's a requirement to wear a tutu when travelling and ask you to prove that's not the case.

If you're the one saying there may be a legal requirement to seek out a guard, then I'd suggest the onus is on you to back up your claim.

Requirement to find the guard?

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