Flooding at Winchburgh (07/08): looks like a canal tunnel

sng7 · 9 Aug 2019

QueensCurve said:
And yet it still recorded a call at Falkirk Grahamston?

I would guess that was a fault with the data feeds as LNER on Twitter confirmed it wasn't calling at falkirk.

RailUK Forums

PaxVobiscum · 9 Aug 2019

route:oxford said:
The "Third Bridge"? The "Forth Bridge" was the Fifth bridge.

Stirling, Scottish Central Railway (1848 )
Stirling, Stirling & Dunfermline Railway (1853)
Gartmore, Strathkendrick & Aberfoyle Railway (1882)
Alloa Swing Bridge, Alloa Railway (1885)
Forth Bridge, Forth Bridge Railway (1890)

As for bridges, starting at Loch Ard, I make it that the newest crossing was the 20th non-rail Crossing.

Firstly, may I second the above summary

.

There were 3 bridges at the point where I went Forth across the river, I was on the 3rd one counting from the left

.

As for the others, I am fairly sure I have been across all those which are still extant whether on foot, or by car, bicycle or train, and have observed the construction of just a few of them over the years not that any of this matters or is relevant to the thread though it’s never stopped me before :lol:

.

HankyuDentetsu · 12 Aug 2019

More flooding again this morning, significant delays and cancellations, trains reduced to 5mph through the tunnel section. With climate change promising heavier rainfalls in the years to come, time to look again at drainage in this section?

PaxVobiscum · 12 Aug 2019

Here’s a couple of photos from NetworkRail Scotland on Twitter:
https://twitter.com/networkrailscot/status/1160804306863439878

Further extreme rainfall over weekend has led to some flooding in #Winchburgh tunnel which means trains are running at a reduced speed.

Pumps are working to cope with volume of water & we are monitoring situation. Weather forecast is positive & water levels are dropping.

Mingulay · 12 Aug 2019

PaxVobiscum said:
Here’s a couple of photos from NetworkRail Scotland on Twitter:
https://twitter.com/networkrailscot/status/1160804306863439878

View attachment 67068 View attachment 67069

Just crept thru. Barely any water now below the bottom of the rail.

It would seem a permanent hard plumbed pumping solution could be engineered to trip into action

Hard to believe this is Scotland’s premier flagship route and that is so vulnerable to heavy rainfall in Scotland.

Network rail need to raise their game.

Looking at our stations. Poorly maintained and cheap materials and new work that has been done looks a mess after a two or three years.

If you use glass guys it does need cleaning. If you use cheap metal structures it rusts and looks like scrap

Zero faith in Network rail. Queen Street will look good for about a year !

Gadget88 · 12 Aug 2019

Mingulay said:
Just crept thru. Barely any water now below the bottom of the rail.

It would seem a permanent hard plumbed pumping solution could be engineered to trip into action

Hard to believe this is Scotland’s premier flagship route and that is so vulnerable to heavy rainfall in Scotland.

Network rail need to raise their game.

Looking at our stations. Poorly maintained and cheap materials and new work that has been done looks a mess after a two or three years.

If you use glass guys it does need cleaning. If you use cheap metal structures it rusts and looks like scrap

Zero faith in Network rail. Queen Street will look good for about a year !

Exactly Dundee station is in poor condition already.

Highlandspring · 12 Aug 2019

Mingulay said:
It would seem a permanent hard plumbed pumping solution could be engineered to trip into action

Winchburgh tunnel already has permanent high capacity pumps at both ends and has done for many years.

Gadget88 · 12 Aug 2019

How come they can’t divert via Dalmeny chord?

Highlandspring · 12 Aug 2019

Winchburgh - Dalmeny and Dalmeny - Haymarket Central aren’t wired.

Gadget88 · 12 Aug 2019

Highlandspring said:
Winchburgh - Dalmeny and Dalmeny - Haymarket Central aren’t wired.

True and I guess they don’t have any old stock they can run now?

Highlandspring · 12 Aug 2019

Certainly not enough diesel sets to run the E&G even at reduced frequency without mega cancellations elsewhere. Remember lots of 170s and 158s have left the fleet since the E&G went live. Also running via Dalmeny isn’t a realistic option unless the line is physically blocked since the reversal adds so much to the journey time - you’re as well just running through the tunnel at 5mph.

Gadget88 · 12 Aug 2019

Highlandspring said:
Certainly not enough diesel sets to run the E&G even at reduced frequency without mega cancellations elsewhere. Remember lots of 170s and 158s have left the fleet since the E&G went live. Also running via Dalmeny isn’t a realistic option unless the line is physically blocked since the reversal adds so much to the journey time - you’re as well just running through the tunnel at 5mph.

Perhaps they will electrify the Dalmeny section once Winchburgh station opens?

Mingulay · 12 Aug 2019

Highlandspring said:
Winchburgh tunnel already has permanent high capacity pumps at both ends and has done for many years.

Thanks

So would it be fair to say that the pumps aren't adequate and need to be supplemented with more?

Given this must be the most important line in Scotrails network , I assume Network Rail can come up with an engineering fix if the will is there?

Or is it easier to accept that typically the line will be closed say 3 days a year on average and put it down to weather events and forces out with their control?

PaxVobiscum · 12 Aug 2019

I would have thought that it’s not so much a matter of will (after all, who wants their tunnel flooded) so much as money and practicality.

The recent work took 6 weeks of ~~25/7~~ oops :smile:

24/7 shifts after very careful assessment and planning so any extra work would almost certainly cause further prolonged closure(s). I don’t imagine the drainage improvements were based on wild guesswork either.

I blame the surveyor and the promoters of the E&G for being daft enough for choosing that route requiring a tunnel which forms a natural sump for the surrounding countryside.

Sirius · 12 Aug 2019

The geniuses appear to have caused chaos on the Bathgate route by (unnecessarily) blocking Newbridge Junction this morning.

AndrewE · 12 Aug 2019

PaxVobiscum said:
...
I blame the surveyor and the promoters of the E&G for being daft enough for choosing that route requiring a tunnel which forms a natural sump for the surrounding countryside.

Maybe he had to dive under the canal, as it was there first - and would have had great difficulty climbing a hump-backed bridgr over the railway!

cosmo · 12 Aug 2019

There was various cancellations for flooding but trains ran to Edinburgh and Glasgow on the main route today, some Queen Street and Dunblane trains amongst others weren't run.

Highlandspring · 12 Aug 2019

Sirius said:
The geniuses appear to have caused chaos on the Bathgate route by (unnecessarily) blocking Newbridge Junction this morning.

I’ll point out to you that the professional railwaymen of the Scotland Integrated Control, who are paid to manage the day to day operation of the network, have forgotten more about handling service disruption than you’ll ever know.

Taunton · 12 Aug 2019

I'm sure I can remember flooding in Winchburgh tunnel in the 1970s when I lived around there. The adjacent "loch" is I believe actually flooded old clay workings for the brickworks that used to be there, and shows the water table level of the land there.

I don't know if it's an issue there, but elsewhere there have been problems with river authorities refusing to accept pumped water (or beyond a certain amount) from rail lines. Chipping Sodbury tunnel in Wiltshire, long prone to flooding, had the authority at one time require a pump route about 10 miles long right to the Severn Estuary because they didn't want to deal with the water in their own system.

InOban · 12 Aug 2019

AndrewE said:
Maybe he had to dive under the canal, as it was there first - and would have had great difficulty climbing a hump-backed bridgr over the railway!

The Union canal doesn't cross the railway, at least not until the approach to the Falkirk Wheel. The problem is the loch.

GusB · 12 Aug 2019

Mingulay said:
Just crept thru. Barely any water now below the bottom of the rail.

It would seem a permanent hard plumbed pumping solution could be engineered to trip into action

Hard to believe this is Scotland’s premier flagship route and that is so vulnerable to heavy rainfall in Scotland.

Network rail need to raise their game.

Looking at our stations. Poorly maintained and cheap materials and new work that has been done looks a mess after a two or three years.

If you use glass guys it does need cleaning. If you use cheap metal structures it rusts and looks like scrap

Zero faith in Network rail. Queen Street will look good for about a year !

I assume you missed all the posts that referred to a substantial amount of an entire month's rainfall coming down within a couple of hours. I'd be interested to see your fully-costed technical solution for solving this particular issue.

It's nice to see that the Dementors are still with us!

Sirius · 17 Aug 2019

Highlandspring said:
I’ll point out to you that the professional railwaymen of the Scotland Integrated Control, who are paid to manage the day to day operation of the network, have forgotten more about handling service disruption than you’ll ever know.

I’m quite sure they have. However to the lay and unqualified observer blocking Newbridge Junction with trains wasn’t very clever considering the Twitter page were suggesting via Bathgate as an alternative route.

philthetube · 18 Aug 2019

Mingulay said:
Thanks

So would it be fair to say that the pumps aren't adequate and need to be supplemented with more?

Given this must be the most important line in Scotrails network , I assume Network Rail can come up with an engineering fix if the will is there?

Or is it easier to accept that typically the line will be closed say 3 days a year on average and put it down to weather events and forces out with their control?

I water is pouring into the tunnel no amount of pumping will solve the issue. The water needs to be prevented from arriving at the site.

AndrewE · 18 Aug 2019

InOban said:
The Union canal doesn't cross the railway, at least not until the approach to the Falkirk Wheel. The problem is the loch.

You are right, I was thinking of Carmuirs for some reason, where they did replace a tunnel under the canal with an aquaduct.

Andyjs247 · 18 Aug 2019

philthetube said:
I water is pouring into the tunnel no amount of pumping will solve the issue. The water needs to be prevented from arriving at the site.

Eh? They haven’t managed to stop water getting into the Severn Tunnel but a big enough pump does the job.

InOban · 18 Aug 2019

But I assume that the flow into the Severn Tunnel is constant, and the pumps are built for that. While 99% of the time there will be little or no water at Winchburgh, but on occasion a deluge (and I wouldn't be surprised to find out that the recent flood was record-breaking).

route:oxford · 18 Aug 2019

InOban said:
But I assume that the flow into the Severn Tunnel is constant, and the pumps are built for that. While 99% of the time there will be little or no water at Winchburgh, but on occasion a deluge (and I wouldn't be surprised to find out that the recent flood was record-breaking).

Record breaking?

36mm... About 55% of Edinburgh's average August rain or less than a quarter of April rain in Glasgow.

Claims that it was a month's worth of rain have been repeated so often, that some people seem to believe it!

InOban · 18 Aug 2019

First, the torrential rain was so localised that I don't know whether there was an accurate rain gauge in the area. And second, there's s big difference between the rain spread over 31 days and half that falling in a couple of hours.

route:oxford · 19 Aug 2019

InOban said:
First, the torrential rain was so localised that I don't know whether there was an accurate rain gauge in the area. And second, there's s big difference between the rain spread over 31 days and half that falling in a couple of hours.

Inaccurate weather measurement so close to an airport take off or landing flight path would seem unlikely.

Even in the wettest Scottish months there are 12-15 rain free days a month in the central belt. Considerably different in Oban of course, where you may enjoy 50% more rainy than days than the wettest Edinburgh month.

So the reality is it's a drainage problem. Unlike the Severn Tunnel though, the trackbed at Winchburgh is around 70 metres *above* sea level. There's probably potential there to deliver a gravity based solution, with a 70 metre drop, perhaps even generate power when it rains.

HankyuDentetsu · 19 Aug 2019

Maybe I've missed something, but no one seemed to address it last time - can't we just build higher walls around the north bank of the loch to prevent water spilling over into the tunnel?

Flooding at Winchburgh (07/08): looks like a canal tunnel

Member

RailUK Forums

Established Member

Member

Established Member

Member

Member

Established Member

Member

Established Member

Member

Established Member

Member

Member

Established Member

Member

Established Member

Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Member

Established Member

Established Member

Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Member