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WCML New Rolling Stock Discussion

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krus_aragon

krus_aragon

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tbtc said:
There's a tidal flow to the Welsh services though - you could run a few doubled up units all the way *from* Holyhead in the morning, with a single unit providing the Euston - Chester services at breakfast time - similarly, run single units south from Chester in the afternoon/evening to permit double units to run all the way *to* Holyhead at that time.

Every four hours west of Chester might then be acceptable for the middle of the day (to provide double up trains every hour south of Chester).
Click to expand...
That's not too many miles away from the current provision.

The current weekday service for the NW Coast is as follows:
  • Three early morning departures from Holyhead to Euston
  • An early morning train from Birmingham to Holyhead, which forms a 9am departure for Euston
  • 8am and 9am trains from Euston to Holyhead and back, which meet the mid-day Stena and Irish Ferries sailings
  • 4pm departure from Euston to Bangor, which then returns to Birmingham
  • 5pm, 6pm, 7pm departures from Euston to Holyhead, stabling there overnight
The first two trains from Holyhead currently couple en-route to Euston, with portions from Blackpool (at Crewe) then Wrexham (at Chester). One of the two lunch-time trains operates as a double unit throughout. And in the evening, the 5pm is doubled to Chester, the 6pm has a portion for Wrexham (splitting at Chester), and the 7pm is also doubled to Chester. (I'm not sure how much room there is to stable additional stock at Holyhead if you decided to send all the units through: I believe it currently houses 3 Voyagers, 5 DMUs, and a loco-hauled rake overnight.)

My concern with doubling up everything Chester to Euston with bi-modes is that the one remaining unit wouldn't be able to match the current provision for the mid-day ferries at Holyhead.Your points about improved provision from TfW are sound for most of the coast, but Holyhead itself won't see any increases. Removing one of the current Virgin WC services would leave a lot of luggage-laden travellers changing trains at Chester for TfW's shorter trains. But if one works with the plan of doubling most Chester-Euston services (or Crewe-Euston with EMUs), then it should be possible to find the units to keep running the boat services running.

Of the remaining services, the one which (IMHO) could really do with being doubled is the 4pm (1610) departure from Euston. It's the only evening departure North Wales off-peak returns are restricted from (restriction VK), because of the lack of capacity.
 
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EE Andy b1

EE Andy b1

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krus_aragon said:
Of the remaining services, the one which (IMHO) could really do with being doubled is the 4pm (1610) departure from Euston. It's the only evening departure North Wales off-peak returns are restricted from (restriction VK), because of the lack of capacity.
Click to expand...

Doubled on a Friday at the moment to Bangor, rear set locked out on return from Bangor to Chester.
 
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pt_mad

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krus_aragon said:
That's not too many miles away from the current provision.

The current weekday service for the NW Coast is as follows:
  • Three early morning departures from Holyhead to Euston
  • An early morning train from Birmingham to Holyhead, which forms a 9am departure for Euston
  • 8am and 9am trains from Euston to Holyhead and back, which meet the mid-day Stena and Irish Ferries sailings
  • 4pm departure from Euston to Bangor, which then returns to Birmingham
  • 5pm, 6pm, 7pm departures from Euston to Holyhead, stabling there overnight
The first two trains from Holyhead currently couple en-route to Euston, with portions from Blackpool (at Crewe) then Wrexham (at Chester). One of the two lunch-time trains operates as a double unit throughout. And in the evening, the 5pm is doubled to Chester, the 6pm has a portion for Wrexham (splitting at Chester), and the 7pm is also doubled to Chester. (I'm not sure how much room there is to stable additional stock at Holyhead if you decided to send all the units through: I believe it currently houses 3 Voyagers, 5 DMUs, and a loco-hauled rake overnight.)

My concern with doubling up everything Chester to Euston with bi-modes is that the one remaining unit wouldn't be able to match the current provision for the mid-day ferries at Holyhead.Your points about improved provision from TfW are sound for most of the coast, but Holyhead itself won't see any increases. Removing one of the current Virgin WC services would leave a lot of luggage-laden travellers changing trains at Chester for TfW's shorter trains. But if one works with the plan of doubling most Chester-Euston services (or Crewe-Euston with EMUs), then it should be possible to find the units to keep running the boat services running.

Of the remaining services, the one which (IMHO) could really do with being doubled is the 4pm (1610) departure from Euston. It's the only evening departure North Wales off-peak returns are restricted from (restriction VK), because of the lack of capacity.
Click to expand...

Perhaps it's more likely to be what was suggested regards a bi-mode might be coupled with an EMU and split at Crewe every hour with bi-mode going off to Chester or N Wales on some workings.

That would make sense. Personally I couldn't see a lot of sense in allowing anything to leave Euston with only 5 cars on, on the South WCML until after HS2. Once the new trains are delivered of course.

As an example, the Chester could possibly have a stop inserted at an intermediate stop, say Nuneaton as an example, if acceleration was further improved and train was full length to Crewe. Some of the evening Holyheads make an intermediate stop en route.
 
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driver_m

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Let’s just clear this up about the intermediate stops. You have to bear in mind that pretty much anywhere you add a stop on the southern end, you will create a conflict somewhere else. The current setup allows for a bit of recovery but not much, particularly for the Manchester services. What we have now works fairly well IF everything is how it should be. Change anything in the current permutations and you will add more disruption potential, less recovery and conflicts almost certainly.

mill give you this as an example. The xx07 can cover 112 miles in its first hour as it is non stop, by contrast the xx10 with a stop at MK is rather less at 102 typically. That shows you what just one stop can do to the timings of it is reliant on passing somewhere at a certain time. Ie Crewe.
 
LNW-GW Joint

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pt_mad said:
As an example, the Chester could possibly have a stop inserted at an intermediate stop, say Nuneaton as an example, if acceleration was further improved and train was full length to Crewe. Some of the evening Holyheads make an intermediate stop en route.
Click to expand...

That would make sense if both units tilted.
What wouldn't make sense is for another 110mph path in addition to the LNWR one and (at certain hours) the GC Blackpool service.
 
Chris125

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Chiltern006 said:
Just throwing this in there, AT300s dont tilt, so will it be something new or a tilting AT300? Orders of more pendolinos or a Bi-Mode version???
Click to expand...

AT300s are not designed for tilting and Pendolinos are not designed as bi-modes - even if a new tilting bi-mode design was practical for the UK, you'd never get a sensible price for such a small order of uniquely complex trains.
 
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Chris125 said:
AT300s are not designed for tilting and Pendolinos are not designed as bi-modes - even if a new tilting bi-mode design was practical for the UK, you'd never get a sensible price for such a small order of uniquely complex trains.
Click to expand...

Aren't there tilting versions of the Hitachi A-train in Taiwan?
 
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a_c_skinner

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In the face of 125 mph non-tilt stock available off the shelf, better acceleration (and the possibility of going to the more relaxed standards of cant deficiency reported for the MML and north ECML) I cannot see new tilting trains being ordered.
 
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pt_mad

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driver_m said:
Let’s just clear this up about the intermediate stops. You have to bear in mind that pretty much anywhere you add a stop on the southern end, you will create a conflict somewhere else. The current setup allows for a bit of recovery but not much, particularly for the Manchester services. What we have now works fairly well IF everything is how it should be. Change anything in the current permutations and you will add more disruption potential, less recovery and conflicts almost certainly.

mill give you this as an example. The xx07 can cover 112 miles in its first hour as it is non stop, by contrast the xx10 with a stop at MK is rather less at 102 typically. That shows you what just one stop can do to the timings of it is reliant on passing somewhere at a certain time. Ie Crewe.
Click to expand...

From:
https://www.railwaygazette.com/news...renitalia-awarded-west-coast-partnership.html
The partners will also work more closely on timetable development, ‘exploring opportunities’ to improve services for intermediate towns such as Nuneaton.
Click to expand...

Hence thinking about where an intermediate stop might fit in.
 
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AndrewE

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pt_mad said:
From:
https://www.railwaygazette.com/news...renitalia-awarded-west-coast-partnership.html
Hence thinking about where an intermediate stop might fit in.
Click to expand...
You are quite correct to be looking for stops (really better connections) off the southern WCML. I thought that one of the main advantages of HS2 (when it arrives) will be the freeing up of paths on the classic WCML so that something more like the service 20 years ago can be offered: the option to change off a long-distance express at Nuneaton or Rugby to connect into local or semi-fast services to places like Leicester, Northampton or Hemel. I know that a few long-distance trains currently stop at Milton Keynes, but it's nothing like the service that a TaktFahrpLan should deliver.
 
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From the other thread...

158756 said:
A UK gauge tilting train will always be a bespoke product, so in the long run it might make financial sense to do the upgrades rather than fund the development of the trains. North of Wigan the future is non-tilting anyway with HS2, so ultimately everyone travelling on the line will benefit from non tilt speed increases.
Click to expand...

Furthermore there is more of a potential future for, say, 80x, once HS2 domestic stock replaces them - they could go to GWR or LNER for strengthening.

I bet it'll be 80x. I further bet they'll be 5 x 26m. I further further bet that the new "improved" seats will be Fainsa Sophias.
 
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Bletchleyite

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AndrewE said:
You are quite correct to be looking for stops (really better connections) off the southern WCML. I thought that one of the main advantages of HS2 (when it arrives) will be the freeing up of paths on the classic WCML so that something more like the service 20 years ago can be offered: the option to change off a long-distance express at Nuneaton or Rugby to connect into local or semi-fast services to places like Leicester, Northampton or Hemel. I know that a few long-distance trains currently stop at Milton Keynes, but it's nothing like the service that a TaktFahrpLan should deliver.
Click to expand...

More services at MKC are certainly one of the benefits of HS2, as MK grows demand from itself (not involving London) will only grow more.
 
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Bletchleyite said:
From the other thread...



Furthermore there is more of a potential future for, say, 80x, once HS2 domestic stock replaces them - they could go to GWR or LNER for strengthening.

I bet it'll be 80x. I further bet they'll be 5 x 26m. I further further bet that the new "improved" seats will be Fainsa Sophias.
Click to expand...

Is that an accumulator bet, so that the money from one win goes to be the stake for the next?
 
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Bletchleyite

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The Ham said:
Is that an accumulator bet, so that the money from one win goes to be the stake due the next?
Click to expand...

I'm not really a betting man :) However I do think those are very likely outcomes, as they would allow the stock to go to GWR/LNER for added capacity once the HS2 classic compatible stock replaces it.
 
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pt_mad

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AndrewE said:
You are quite correct to be looking for stops (really better connections) off the southern WCML. I thought that one of the main advantages of HS2 (when it arrives) will be the freeing up of paths on the classic WCML so that something more like the service 20 years ago can be offered: the option to change off a long-distance express at Nuneaton or Rugby to connect into local or semi-fast services to places like Leicester, Northampton or Hemel. I know that a few long-distance trains currently stop at Milton Keynes, but it's nothing like the service that a TaktFahrpLan should deliver.
Click to expand...

Bletchleyite said:
From the other thread...



Furthermore there is more of a potential future for, say, 80x, once HS2 domestic stock replaces them - they could go to GWR or LNER for strengthening.

I bet it'll be 80x. I further bet they'll be 5 x 26m. I further further bet that the new "improved" seats will be Fainsa Sophias.
Click to expand...

Would be interesting to compare journey times on say class 80x stock Vs 397 stock Vs 221/390 on services which have a few more stops in or before the Midlands. I.e. the improved acceleration Vs the tilt of a 221 or 390.

Such as on the Birmingham terminator or the evening Holyheads - the 1910 from Euston calls at Milton Keynes, Nuneaton, Stafford and Crewe. With stops like that would the tilt on a 221 stand up that poorly to the improved acceleration on an 802 for example? Especially if the tilt on the 221 is slightly less than that on a 390 anyway as has to be driven as such? Is that the case?
 
MisterT

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EE Andy b1 said:
That's why I mentioned the Stadler Flirt units for the same reason. I've not seen anything to confirm or not if a Bi-mode would work in muti with an electric only unit. But why not? Would make sense as the idea would be to drop the diesels if future electrification was granted.
Click to expand...
Stadler did this kind of thing with their GTW product for Veolia (now Arriva) in the Netherlands.
The EMUs can be coupled with the DMUs and run in multiple. The DMUs have additional equipment in place for the EMU functions (e.g. the pantograph) and vice versa.
 
Y Ddraig Coch

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A very vague, but little bits of information about what the North Wales Coast can expect form the new Franchise.

https://www.dailypost.co.uk/business/business-news/what-west-coast-mainline-takeover-16781341


Virgin Trains are set to be replaced by FirstGroup plc and Trenitalia UK Ltd on the West Coast mainline route this December.

The line connects North Wales with London and has been run by Virgin Trains since 1997.

Now joint venture First Trenitalia West Coast Rail Limited had been awarded the new contract by the Department for Transport.
Details have been released showing what benefits the new contract will bring to 10 stations across North Wales - and Gobowen and Chester just over the border.

Here are the changes being introduced
Llandudno
new direct connectivity to London in the summer months from May 2021
  • new fleet of bi-mode trains to serve North Wales, replacing Super Voyagers
Llandudno Junction

  • one additional direct journey to and from London Euston per day on Saturdays during the summer months from May 2021
  • later last trains to London Euston Monday to Friday by December 2020
  • earlier first trains and later last trains to and from London Euston on Saturdays by December 2022
  • earlier first trains from London Euston and later last trains to London Euston on Sundays from December 2022
  • new fleet of bi-mode trains to serve North Wales, replacing Super Voyagers
Bangor

  • new trains will replace Super Voyagers
Chester

  • earlier first trains and later last trains to and from London Euston on Saturdays and Sundays by December 2022
  • new trains to replace Super Voyagers
Colwyn Bay
  • one additional direct journey to and from London Euston per day on Saturdays during the summer months from May 2021
  • later last trains to London Euston Monday to Friday by December 2020
  • earlier first trains and later last trains to and from London Euston on Saturdays by December 2022
  • earlier first trains from London Euston and later last trains to London Euston on Sundays from December 2022
  • new fleet of bi-mode trains to serve North Wales, replacing Super Voyagers
Deganwy

  • new direct connectivity to London in the summer months, from May 2021
  • new fleet of bi-mode trains to serve North Wales, replacing Super Voyagers
Flint
  • new trains will replace Super Voyagers
Gobowen

  • new direct connectivity to London, with a direct journey to and from London Euston Monday to Saturday from December 2022
  • new trains to replace Super Voyagers
Holyhead

  • new trains will replace Super Voyagers
Prestatyn

  • one additional direct journey to and from London Euston per day on Saturdays during the summer months from May 2021
  • new fleet of bi-mode trains to serve North Wales, replacing Super Voyagers
Rhyl
  • one additional direct journey to and from London Euston per day on Saturdays during the summer months from May 2021
  • later last trains to London Euston Monday to Friday by December 2020
  • earlier first trains and later last trains to and from London Euston on Saturdays by December 2022
  • earlier first trains from London Euston and later last trains to London Euston on Sundays from December 2022
  • new fleet of bi-mode trains to serve North Wales, replacing Super Voyagers
Wrexham General

  • new trains will replace Super Voyagers
Click to expand...
 
voyagerdude220

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krus_aragon said:
Forgot to mention that, thanks. The VK restriction on the 16:10 is lifted on Fridays because of the doubled unit.
Click to expand...

Sorry to be off topic, but how do VT manage having a 10-car 221 stop at Flint, which I'm sure can't accommodate the entire train? Does the rear set get locked out of use at Chester?
 
krus_aragon

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Bletchleyite said:
I didn't think double sets ever went past Chester, i.e. only front 5 go forward?
Click to expand...
There's the daytime boat train, of course. (0910 ex-Euston and 1358 ex-Holyhead, not stopping at Flint either way). That's been 10-car for years.

EE Andy b1 said upthread of the 1610:
EE Andy b1 said:
Doubled on a Friday at the moment to Bangor, rear set locked out on return from Bangor to Chester.
Click to expand...
On re-checking the May-December 2018 diagrams I have, I find it's described as a single unit, so it must be a recent change.
 
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Alston made 106 extra pendolino carriages for the DfT / Virgin in 2010-2012. Considering these 10 extra emus are for more routes they seem like they are going to be either 9 or 11 cars. If they go for 9 cars it's only 16 less than the ones made in 2010-2012 and if 11 cars then it would be 4 more. It seems more pendolinos will be the choice for the emus.
 
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Also nobody seems to have mentioned the Siemens Venturio. It's a product range of tilting diesel trains and is what the ICE TD is based on. And in 2002 FirstGroup and Siemens agrees to develop the Venturio UK to replace the HSTs. However the Strategic Rail Authority told them to stop the program. Could it be revived for this? Considering the Venturio the similar to the Velaro which is already in service with Eurostar.
 
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EE Andy b1

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voyagerdude220 said:
Sorry to be off topic, but how do VT manage having a 10-car 221 stop at Flint, which I'm sure can't accommodate the entire train? Does the rear set get locked out of use at Chester?
Click to expand...
1610 ex Euston Friday only...
Whilst stopped at Chester the doors of the rear 2 vehicles of the rear Class 221 are locked out of use and unlocked again at Rhyl, on the return 2020 from Bangor the rear set is locked out of use.
 
voyagerdude220

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EE Andy b1 said:
1610 ex Euston Friday only...
Whilst stopped at Chester the doors of the rear 2 vehicles of the rear Class 221 are locked out of use and unlocked again at Rhyl, on the return 2020 from Bangor the rear set is locked out of use.
Click to expand...

Many thanks
 
Chris125

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Energy said:
Alston made 106 extra pendolino carriages for the DfT / Virgin in 2010-2012. Considering these 10 extra emus are for more routes they seem like they are going to be either 9 or 11 cars. If they go for 9 cars it's only 16 less than the ones made in 2010-2012 and if 11 cars then it would be 4 more. It seems more pendolinos will be the choice for the emus.
Click to expand...

Alas the 390 design is nearly 20 years old and no longer meets crashworthiness standards, adding further cost.

IIRC Virgin did once propose dragging new half-length Pendolinos to replace the 221s, but the ordering of bi-modes clearly favours conventional rolling stock.
 
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Chris125 said:
Alas the 390 design is nearly 20 years old and no longer meets crashworthiness standards, adding further cost.

IIRC Virgin did once propose dragging new half-length Pendolinos to replace the 221s, but the ordering of bi-modes clearly favours conventional rolling stock.
Click to expand...
I guess we will see what happens and whether Alstom will update it by using the newer pendolino and a new (but similar looking) body.
 
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