ECML closed PBO to KGX Aug Bank Holiday routing

hwl · 17 Aug 2019

EdinburghTrain said:
I've two questions about the work being done at Kings Cross:

Is it possible and would there be a benefit in reopening/reusing the 3rd Copenhagen Tunnel too?

Has this work replaced the partial closure (link below) due to start in early 2020? https://www.railmagazine.com/news/network/plans-unveiled-for-237m-king-s-cross-remodelling

On the second point. No it is one of set of pre cursor works to the partial closure effectively removing the signal cabling in the eastern bore of the canal tunnels and allow the modifications track laying and electrification work before the partial closure.

As others have said Copenhagen tunnels is significantly more work/cost and far less benefit.

RailUK Forums

Ianno87 · 17 Aug 2019

yorksrob said:
I read somewhere that the problem with reopening the third bore of Copenhagen tunnel is that the flyover taking up local trains over the main line to the West of the station, is in the way.

That, plus the third bore will remain useful for giving staff access to the S&C at Belle Isle from the access point at Holloway.

Hadders · 17 Aug 2019

I’ve travelled extensively on GTR trains on the GN side over the last couple of weeks. Not one onboard announcement or PIS message about these works.

This is in complete contrast to the Brighton Mainline works when we were bombarded with them.

800002 · 17 Aug 2019

Hadders said:
I’ve travelled extensively on GTR trains on the GN side over the last couple of weeks. Not one onboard announcement or PIS message about these works.

This is in complete contrast to the Brighton Mainline works when we were bombarded with them.

It wouldn't surprise me if they suffered complaints about the number of announcements (they were additionally on the Rainham Line too!) and so took 'corrective action'. :/

philjo · 17 Aug 2019

Hadders said:
I’ve travelled extensively on GTR trains on the GN side over the last couple of weeks. Not one onboard announcement or PIS message about these works.

This is in complete contrast to the Brighton Mainline works when we were bombarded with them.

I have seen some scrolling messages about the bank holiday closures on the PIS on the GN 387s but not seen anything on the 700s. Though the message was quite long and the couple opposite me gained the impression that there were no trains to Cambridge on the day they saw the message!

Hadders · 17 Aug 2019

They had agency staff handing out leaflets at Stevenage station one evening last week. All well and good but commuters arriving home between 6-7pm on a weekday evening aren’t the ones going to affected by these works.

They needed to be giving out leaflets all day today and tomorrow, being as these are the last Saturday and Sunday before the closure next weekend. Of course they haven’t bothered to do this.

I’ve no problem with the work being done next weekend. In 20+ years of rail travel from Stevenage it’s only the 2nd time I can recall there being no trains between Stevenage and London. What I do have a problem with is the lack of publicity.

800002 · 17 Aug 2019

There were full page colour ads in this week's metro's.
But I suppose being non-technological, the vast majority won't see it while endlessly scrolling through thier electronic devices.
I honestly believe what ever NR would have done, or the TOC's for that matter, it still wouldn't have been enough for a lot of folks to realise.

Stories of the Christmas / bank holiday works spring to mind, when the press pick up on the odd individuals willing to admit, on camera, that they took for granted that the railway was operational that day / weekend. It's never the travelers fault that they didn't check before travelling*.

Wernt there also stories from people who didn't know the Waterlo works were happening (when there was a good few months of Good publicity)?

*Agreed, sometimes the rail industry doesn't help itself on these occasions.

jon0844 · 18 Aug 2019

Hadders said:
They had agency staff handing out leaflets at Stevenage station one evening last week. All well and good but commuters arriving home between 6-7pm on a weekday evening aren’t the ones going to affected by these works.

They needed to be giving out leaflets all day today and tomorrow, being as these are the last Saturday and Sunday before the closure next weekend. Of course they haven’t bothered to do this.

I’ve no problem with the work being done next weekend. In 20+ years of rail travel from Stevenage it’s only the 2nd time I can recall there being no trains between Stevenage and London. What I do have a problem with is the lack of publicity.

Ads in the press (including all local papers in affected areas). Possibly radio ads? Handing out leaflets/cards in town centres, not the stations themselves, for those who may not travel in the week. Posters everywhere. digital screens showing messages on platforms/ticket halls. Social media warnings for many many weeks.

I think you have perhaps missed a lot of the messages, perhaps because you've tuned out and are already aware of the work.

There's two years of work ahead so I expect people will get even more desensitised as time goes on.

As said elsewhere, a lot of people are glued to their phones. I have no idea if anyone buying a ticket from trainline or similar get any form of warning about upcoming works (especially if buying a ticket to/from an affected station on those dates)?

It's obvious that on Saturday morning, people will rock up to their local station with their extended family, buggies and bikes all ready for a day out at the beach or whatever - then go mad that nobody told them (and their last train journey was six months ago). I am not sure what can be done about that, as this sort of thing happens every day when rail replacement buses are in operation and people say they expected, even demand, a train and nobody told them.

Thing is, people don't like unsolicited emails, calls or texts so how do you tell someone you don't yet know is wanting to travel on a specific day/time that there's an alteration to the service?

bramling · 18 Aug 2019

jon0844 said:
Ads in the press (including all local papers in affected areas). Possibly radio ads? Handing out leaflets/cards in town centres, not the stations themselves, for those who may not travel in the week. Posters everywhere. digital screens showing messages on platforms/ticket halls. Social media warnings for many many weeks.

I think you have perhaps missed a lot of the messages, perhaps because you've tuned out and are already aware of the work.

There's two years of work ahead so I expect people will get even more desensitised as time goes on.

As said elsewhere, a lot of people are glued to their phones. I have no idea if anyone buying a ticket from trainline or similar get any form of warning about upcoming works (especially if buying a ticket to/from an affected station on those dates)?

It's obvious that on Saturday morning, people will rock up to their local station with their extended family, buggies and bikes all ready for a day out at the beach or whatever - then go mad that nobody told them (and their last train journey was six months ago). I am not sure what can be done about that, as this sort of thing happens every day when rail replacement buses are in operation and people say they expected, even demand, a train and nobody told them.

Thing is, people don't like unsolicited emails, calls or texts so how do you tell someone you don't yet know is wanting to travel on a specific day/time that there's an alteration to the service?

I’ve got to say I don’t really think there’s been much publicity.

All I’ve really been conscious of is a couple of posters at King’s Cross and my local station along the lines of “don’t travel on the bank holiday”, which from a distance reads as if it only applies to the Monday.

The stereotypical Patsy family from Stevenage going for a trip to Oxford Street over the weekend will doubtless turn up unaware.

Of course anyone using GTR on any weekend should be checking RTTT and the departure boards before setting out to the station. It goes without saying that neither of these facilities are officially provided nor advocated by the rail industry!

Thankfully I’m off over the Saturday and Sunday, but am working on the Monday. I’m not going to chance it, any non-normal-weekday GN travel has become a highly unpleasant experience over the last decade, both due to overcrowding and unpredictability. Car it will be for me.

Ianno87 · 18 Aug 2019

jon0844 said:
Ads in the press (including all local papers in affected areas). Possibly radio ads? Handing out leaflets/cards in town centres, not the stations themselves, for those who may not travel in the week. Posters everywhere. digital screens showing messages on platforms/ticket halls. Social media warnings for many many weeks.

I think you have perhaps missed a lot of the messages, perhaps because you've tuned out and are already aware of the work.

There's two years of work ahead so I expect people will get even more desensitised as time goes on.

As said elsewhere, a lot of people are glued to their phones. I have no idea if anyone buying a ticket from trainline or similar get any form of warning about upcoming works (especially if buying a ticket to/from an affected station on those dates)?

It's obvious that on Saturday morning, people will rock up to their local station with their extended family, buggies and bikes all ready for a day out at the beach or whatever - then go mad that nobody told them (and their last train journey was six months ago). I am not sure what can be done about that, as this sort of thing happens every day when rail replacement buses are in operation and people say they expected, even demand, a train and nobody told them.

Thing is, people don't like unsolicited emails, calls or texts so how do you tell someone you don't yet know is wanting to travel on a specific day/time that there's an alteration to the service?

There has been quite a lot for this one - announcements approaching King's Cross too.

At the end of the day, all this stuff isn't free to do and there's only so much you can practically do. Not everybody is going to get the message, no matter how hard you try.

Don't blame them for living their lives and not obsessively checking for train information 24/7 (unlike members of this forum, myself included!)

Fred26 · 18 Aug 2019

There's been a lot of publicity - adverts in local papers, radio adverts, leafleting at stations, leafleting in town centres, posters at stations... Some stations are plastered in posters warning not to travel.
The 700s and 717s have an issue with the PIS which means they can't load the same announcements we had for the Brighton Blockade. The drivers are supposed to make announcements, but that's down to the individual. GTR have also received a lot of complaints about the number of announcements.
There will definitely be people that turn up expecting a train, but those people will be the tiny minority. Most passengers will have got the message as it is simply unavoidable, and will not travel. I suspect a lot of the buses will run half empty.

Aictos · 18 Aug 2019

While there had to be advertisements for the work on the GN, as the TL will be a lot busier as a result has there been anything done for the TL?

Bedford, Luton, St Albans stations will be busier as those are the main interchange stations to use when the GN is up the creek plus the trains be busier then usual, not sure how busy compared to Brighton Pride but I suspect similar numbers or what will happen is that the service will be strengthened with additional TL services but hardly anyone will use them.

Skimble19 · 18 Aug 2019

jon0844 said:
As said elsewhere, a lot of people are glued to their phones. I have no idea if anyone buying a ticket from trainline or similar get any form of warning about upcoming works (especially if buying a ticket to/from an affected station on those dates

GTR have paid for ads to display on trainline, National Rail etc so they should be covered there unless people have ad blockers on. There is a massive list showing all the advertising that has been done, both on and off stations, and a commitment to ramp it up even further for the next closures.

Hadders · 18 Aug 2019

I don't doubt there's been lots of publicity, I just wonder if some of it should have been more targeted.

Handing out leaflets to commuters on a Wednesday evening probably isn't the best use of resource. It would be better done on a Saturday and Sunday which are the days affected by the works

I haven't heard a single announcement about the work on GTR trains. I travel extensively on the line at different times of the day and week.

I'm not a big user of social media so can't comment on what they've done there.

There are posters and banners at my local station. Could they have done more, and have them in a more prominent position - probably.

If we were really joined up then the electronic roadside Traffic Information Signs would've have displayed a message about the closure for the last couple of weeks.

Skimble19 · 18 Aug 2019

Hadders said:
I haven't heard a single announcement about the work on GTR trains.

Sadly this is limited to 387s at the moment - there’s a temporary block on any of these types of announcements/pictures being put on 700s/717s due to the issues faced last time.

There are posters and banners at my local station. Could they have done more, and have them in a more prominent position - probably.

This will vary from station to station as it’s largely been left to local station staff to put them up and decide where they go. Some are absolutely plastered in leaflets/posters/banners and you literally couldn’t miss them, others less so.

Ianno87 · 18 Aug 2019

Hadders said:
I don't doubt there's been lots of publicity, I just wonder if some of it should have been more targeted.

Handing out leaflets to commuters on a Wednesday evening probably isn't the best use of resource. It would be better done on a Saturday and Sunday which are the days affected by the works

But then again, how many people *regularly* travel on Saturdays and Sundays? Quite a few (particularly families) are one-off, irregular trips once in a while, which wouldn't get picked up.

91101 · 18 Aug 2019

The team running this project for GTR is the same people who did Brighton line closure and no stone has gone unturned in terms of trying to get the message out. They have been using a lot of info to try and get the right number of buses. I spoke to some agency staff at Hitchin a few weeks ago who were doing counts to work out how many people were travelling per hour on a Saturday and Sunday.

A lot of Monday-Friday commuters come back on a Saturday for a trip out with the kids.

As others have said there has been town centre advertising/leafleting away from the train stations and yes some of this has been on Saturday and Sundays.

Radio and Press advertising has been running over the whole ECML for the last few weeks.

There’s an extensive bus network across the south end of the ECML including cross route onto GA, TL and LUL for those whom have essential travel.

mpthomson · 18 Aug 2019

SideshowBob said:
Nothing "in the water", just the start of the biggest arts festival in Europe. And judging by LNER's Twitter feed, surprise surprise, it's been unmanaged chaos!

https://twitter.com/LNER/status/1162265307609620481?s=19

https://twitter.com/LNER/status/1162342151197548545?s=19

This suggests to me that they knew perfectly well that, on the first weekend of the Edinburgh Festival, their services would be significantly busier than usual but judging by the comments on their Twitter account, they have utterly failed to manage the demand effectively. But of course, on the weekend that the Fringe finishes and Newcastle Utd are playing Spurs away, everything will be just fine and dandy. Perfect time to close the line because demand will clearly be lower than usual and LNER have an effective, watertight, idiot-proof plan to manage passenger flow that won't fall apart in minutes. Obviously.

It’s not the first weekend of the festival, not even remotely. The festival ends on the bank holiday Monday. It starts at the beginning of August.

Class 170101 · 18 Aug 2019

I think whats being suggested is that the first weekend didn't go well yet LNER were saying it did and expect the last weekend to go well as well. (Despite closure as per thread)

Mag_seven · 19 Aug 2019

Whose idea was it to also have engineering works on the southern stretch of the WCML meaning a reduced service from Euston on the same weekend?

swt_passenger · 19 Aug 2019

Mag_seven said:
Whose idea was it to also have engineering works on the southern stretch of the WCML meaning a reduced service from Euston on the same weekend?

Network Rail? Just a guess... Two track working isn’t it, as discussed a few times earlier in this thread?

Mag_seven · 19 Aug 2019

swt_passenger said:
Network Rail? Just a guess... Two track working isn’t it, as discussed a few times earlier in this thread?

Yes but I thought that when one of the main north south arteries was closed, the idea was to make the remaining one completely free of works so a full service could be operated providing an alternative route to the closed one?

swt_passenger · 19 Aug 2019

Mag_seven said:
Yes but I thought that when one of the main north south arteries was closed, the idea was to make the remaining one completely free of works so a full service could be operated providing an alternative route to the closed one?

Obviously not.

Hadders · 19 Aug 2019

2 track timetable on the south WCML is the normal arrangement on Sunday mornings.

Edders23 · 19 Aug 2019

there are radio ads on absolute radio so i presume a few others as well

Mag_seven · 19 Aug 2019

Hadders said:
2 track timetable on the south WCML is the normal arrangement on Sunday mornings.

Yes but it looks like its two track railway all day Saturday and Sunday this weekend reducing the normal frequency of many services just when they are needed most.

greyman42 · 19 Aug 2019

SideshowBob said:
Newcastle Utd are playing Spurs away, everything will be just fine and dandy.

The engineering work was announced before the premier league announced their fixtures so the premier league could have planned around it if they had wished to do so.

Mugby · 19 Aug 2019

Mugby said:
The 2002 EMT service from St.Pancras on Saturdays usually goes to Leeds but on 24th August it is terminating short at Sheffield.

The EMT site quotes 'Engineering work on the ECML' but I can't see how this would affect Sheffield-Leeds. It seems illogical not to run it through to Leeds on a Saturday evening when the ECML is closed.

Just as an aside to my original post, the truncated 2002 EMR service from St.Pancras on Saturday terminates at Sheffield at 2218.

The last Northern 'fast' service to Leeds departs Sheffield at, er.....2218. - Oh well, only an hour to wait for the last XC service!

800002 · 19 Aug 2019

Mugby said:
Just as an aside to my original post, the truncated 2002 EMR service from St.Pancras on Saturday terminates at Sheffield at 2218.

The last Northern 'fast' service to Leeds departs Sheffield at, er.....2218. - Oh well, only an hour to wait for the last XC service!

Have you overlooked the 2225 XC, 1E73 Bournemouth - Leeds?
7 minutes, arrival - departure could be interesting though.

Class 170101 · 20 Aug 2019

800002 said:
Have you overlooked the 2225 XC, 1E73 Bournemouth - Leeds?
7 minutes, arrival - departure could be interesting though.

Its a valid connection but its tight. Chesterfield might be more reliable.

ECML closed PBO to KGX Aug Bank Holiday routing

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