Transpennine Route Upgrade and Electrification updates

AndrewE · 16 Jul 2019

yorksrob said:
I did read recently that the corrosion of the catenary in the Severn tunnel was due to salt water.

There's both present. At least one big fresh water spring (presumably groundwater in the bedrock strata flowing along one or more faults) and salt-water ingress either down a fault or because the tunnel is so close to the sediment at the bottom of the river bed. Far more water flows through the sandstone into the Mersey tunnel at high tide than at low tide when the estuary water level is so much lower!
I heard that BR used to regularly use a helicopter to drop lots of bags of cement into the river to seal off the downward flow into the Severn tunnel, and were quite concerned when the new bridge was built over or close to the line of the tunnel which would prevent that option being used.
I suspect it's not salt or brackish water dripping through the tunnel roof that is the problem but just the constant high humidity.
p.s. Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Severn_Tunnel confirms both:

In 1885 the bed of a pool, known as the "Salmon Pool", on the English side of the tunnel broke through [8] the tunnel's continuous brickwork lining... The Second Severn Crossing, built in the 1990s, crosses the tunnel on a "ground level bridge" on the English side, near the Salmon Pool. The bridge is supported so that no load is imposed on the tunnel. During that bridge's construction, the concrete cap above the tunnel in the Salmon Pool was renewed"

and

Network Rail has observed that the corrosive atmosphere inside the tunnel, produced by moisture and diesel fumes requires replacing the steel rails every six years.[3]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Severn_Tunnel#cite_note-eng_time-3

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Killingworth · 16 Jul 2019

The problem in Totley and Cowburn tunnels in winter is icicles. The line has been closed for days because of them, although why that should be so when the snow plough gets through intrigues me. Fast forming ice in very wet tunnels, presumably.

I suspect modern tunnels are designed to channel water away from the sides to prevent spears of ice forming and likely to take out cab windows and drivers. Steam trains just crashed through them!

furnessvale · 16 Jul 2019

Killingworth said:
The problem in Totley and Cowburn tunnels in winter is icicles. The line has been closed for days because of them, although why that should be so when the snow plough gets through intrigues me. Fast forming ice in very wet tunnels, presumably.

I suspect modern tunnels are designed to channel water away from the sides to prevent spears of ice forming and likely to take out cab windows and drivers. Steam trains just crashed through them!

The answer is frequent train movements.

A couple of winters ago NR lost a number of lines to snow. I do remember one announcement at 8pm one evening that they had cleared one line of snow and it was their intention to start running trains the following day. No prizes for guessing that the following morning drifting had put paid to that idea!

yorksrob · 16 Jul 2019

AndrewE said:
There's both present. At least one big fresh water spring (presumably groundwater in the bedrock strata flowing along one or more faults) and salt-water ingress either down a fault or because the tunnel is so close to the sediment at the bottom of the river bed. Far more water flows through the sandstone into the Mersey tunnel at high tide than at low tide when the estuary water level is so much lower!
I heard that BR used to regularly use a helicopter to drop lots of bags of cement into the river to seal off the downward flow into the Severn tunnel, and were quite concerned when the new bridge was built over or close to the line of the tunnel which would prevent that option being used.
I suspect it's not salt or brackish water dripping through the tunnel roof that is the problem but just the constant high humidity.
p.s. Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Severn_Tunnel confirms both:
and

Thanks for some interesting information. One would assume that such a level of humidity would be fairly unique.

Killingworth said:
The problem in Totley and Cowburn tunnels in winter is icicles. The line has been closed for days because of them, although why that should be so when the snow plough gets through intrigues me. Fast forming ice in very wet tunnels, presumably.

I suspect modern tunnels are designed to channel water away from the sides to prevent spears of ice forming and likely to take out cab windows and drivers. Steam trains just crashed through them!

furnessvale said:
The answer is frequent train movements.

A couple of winters ago NR lost a number of lines to snow. I do remember one announcement at 8pm one evening that they had cleared one line of snow and it was their intention to start running trains the following day. No prizes for guessing that the following morning drifting had put paid to that idea!

I understand that the Southern Region used to run electric trains all night during such temperatures to keep the third rail ice free. Perhaps a Northern equivalent for the Hope valley ?

hwl · 16 Jul 2019

yorksrob said:
I understand that the Southern Region used to run electric trains all night during such temperatures to keep the third rail ice free. Perhaps a Northern equivalent for the Hope valley ?

They still do on many (but not all) routes

driver_m · 16 Jul 2019

yorksrob said:
Thanks for some interesting information. One would assume that such a level of humidity would be fairly unique.
I understand that the Southern Region used to run electric trains all night during such temperatures to keep the third rail ice free. Perhaps a Northern equivalent for the Hope valley ?

It wouldn’t stop it. We had some ridiculous icicles in Kilsby Tunnel on the WCML a couple of years ago and that’s used intensely. That didn’t stop icicles forming.

yorksrob · 16 Jul 2019

hwl said:
They still do on many (but not all) routes

Cheers, I thought so.

driver_m said:
It wouldn’t stop it. We had some ridiculous icicles in Kilsby Tunnel on the WCML a couple of years ago and that’s used intensely. That didn’t stop icicles forming.

Goodness. I'm not sure what else they could do !

furnessvale · 16 Jul 2019

driver_m said:
It wouldn’t stop it. We had some ridiculous icicles in Kilsby Tunnel on the WCML a couple of years ago and that’s used intensely. That didn’t stop icicles forming.

I have several DVDs from the USA which show the local track supervisor shooting icicles down with a 12 bore!

driver_m · 16 Jul 2019

furnessvale said:
I have several DVDs from the USA which show the local track supervisor shooting icicles down with a 12 bore!

That’s the most American thing I’ve ever heard! Brilliant. When in doubt, shoot it lol!

59CosG95 · 16 Jul 2019

driver_m said:
It wouldn’t stop it. We had some ridiculous icicles in Kilsby Tunnel on the WCML a couple of years ago and that’s used intensely. That didn’t stop icicles forming.

Of course, the increased current in the 750V DC 3rd Rail heats the metal up a lot more than the lessened current in the 25kV AC OLE would...and the problem isn't icicles as much as water solidifying on top of the 3rd rail, insulating trains from the supply.
But yes, shotcrete-lined tunnels aren't immune to ice, as it can indeed still form on the OLE.

Dave_Cardboard · 16 Jul 2019

yorksrob said:
I understand that the Southern Region used to run electric trains all night during such temperatures to keep the third rail ice free. Perhaps a Northern equivalent for the Hope valley ?

AIUI - London Underground do similar, some of their trains carry de-icer for the third rail also.

hwl · 16 Jul 2019

Dave_Cardboard said:
AIUI - London Underground do similar, some of their trains carry de-icer for the third rail also.

De-Icer: Some Electrostars also do and all the dual voltage 710 Aventras do to.

59CosG95 · 19 Jul 2019

The thread on Skyscrapercity discussing the survey points at Ashton-u-Lyne & Stalybridge has been confirmed by @Trackman as being for survey points for possible remodelling at both locations.

LM93 · 22 Jul 2019

Deleted

ajdunlop · 20 Aug 2019

https://www.examinerlive.co.uk/news/west-yorkshire-news/1bn-plans-transform-train-travel-16780752

Apparently this came ‘out of the blue’, think they haven’t been reading this thread.

It also reads as if there will be 5 years of continuous replacement coaches, is this right or will it actually be periods of time over 5 years?

ajdunlop · 20 Aug 2019

https://www.networkrailmediacentre....major-rail-upgrade-to-begin-in-west-yorkshire

ajdunlop · 20 Aug 2019

Only for Huddersfield to Dewsbury, I assume improvement between Huddersfield and Manchester will occur at the same time?

kaiser62 · 20 Aug 2019

According to the Examiner, Network Rail plan to 'double the width of the tracks'. Brunel would be delighted!

Spartacus · 20 Aug 2019

ajdunlop said:
Only for Huddersfield to Dewsbury, I assume improvement between Huddersfield and Manchester will occur at the same time?

At best I couldn’t see that happening as it could leave Huddersfield cut off, even the work on this I expect to be staggered to keep disruption to a minimum.

edwin_m · 20 Aug 2019

Depending on how the work is phased, it's possible Huddersfield could keep a link to Leeds throughout, although it could be via Halifax for some of the time.

CdBrux · 20 Aug 2019

second phase of consultation targeted at the changes made as part of phase one will take place in Spring 2020 before the submission is made to the Secretary of State in Autumn 2020. A decision is expected in 2022 and if approved, work covered as part of the proposal is expected to begin immediately

How long have NR had to get just to this stage? How long does government need to take a decision? So nothing to actually start work for close to another 3 years!

61653 HTAFC · 20 Aug 2019

kaiser62 said:
According to the Examiner, Network Rail plan to 'double the width of the tracks'. Brunel would be delighted!

Like most Mirror Group local newspapers the "Unexamined" is a pale imitation of its' former self, and no longer worth the paper it's printed on nor the web space it's hosted on.

matacaster · 20 Aug 2019

I'm a bit confused!

Press release says Huddersfield to Dewsbury will be electrified. Now forgive me, but doesn't that mean the plans don't include electrifying the awkward Leeds to Dewsbury bit with Morley tunnel, nor the other awkward bit from Huddersfield to Stalybridge which includes Standedge Tunnel. Does this mean that these sections will be on diesel? Have NR got tunnel phobia these days on electrification projects?

Press release also says tracks doubled from 2 to 4 between Huddersfield and Dewsbury - I seem to recall that there are 3 tracks already from Ravensthorpe to Heaton Lodge junction, does this mean we'll get 6 tracks here????

CrickUK · 20 Aug 2019

Is the key issue here that NR propose to build outside the demise of the existing railway boundary and hence need to undertake a public consultation?

"A TWAO is a legal power required for new railway infrastructure to be built outside of the existing operational railway boundary, which is part of the proposal between Huddersfield and Westtown (Dewsbury).

Landowners directly affected by the proposals were written to in the Summer, while every residential property and business within 1km (just over half a mile) either side of the railway will receive an invitation to the public consultation events in the post in August."

I suspect that works between Dewsbury and Leeds will remain within the boundary and therefore consultation is not needed, it does not necessarily mean that no work is taking place between Dewsbury and Leeds

hwl · 20 Aug 2019

matacaster said:
I'm a bit confused!

Press release says Huddersfield to Dewsbury will be electrified. Now forgive me, but doesn't that mean the plans don't include electrifying the awkward Leeds to Dewsbury bit with Morley tunnel, nor the other awkward bit from Huddersfield to Stalybridge which includes Standedge Tunnel. Does this mean that these sections will be on diesel? Have NR got tunnel phobia these days on electrification projects?

Press release also says tracks doubled from 2 to 4 between Huddersfield and Dewsbury - I seem to recall that there are 3 tracks already from Ravensthorpe to Heaton Lodge junction, does this mean we'll get 6 tracks here????

The consultation appears to relate just to one local council area?

I'd take it as bit of simplification that they are going from effectively a 2 track with an extra track in places to 4 track.

edwin_m · 20 Aug 2019

It may be that there are different teams doing different sections of the route and the whatever they are doing north and south of here isn't ready to go to consultation yet.

59CosG95 · 20 Aug 2019

matacaster said:
I'm a bit confused!

Press release says Huddersfield to Dewsbury will be electrified. Now forgive me, but doesn't that mean the plans don't include electrifying the awkward Leeds to Dewsbury bit with Morley tunnel, nor the other awkward bit from Huddersfield to Stalybridge which includes Standedge Tunnel. Does this mean that these sections will be on diesel? Have NR got tunnel phobia these days on electrification projects?

Press release also says tracks doubled from 2 to 4 between Huddersfield and Dewsbury - I seem to recall that there are 3 tracks already from Ravensthorpe to Heaton Lodge junction, does this mean we'll get 6 tracks here????

This might help explain more of the project - certainly the electrification side of it. https://www.networkrail.co.uk/runni...te-upgrade/huddersfield-to-westtown-dewsbury/

Spartacus · 20 Aug 2019

CrickUK said:
Is the key issue here that NR propose to build outside the demise of the existing railway boundary and hence need to undertake a public consultation?

"A TWAO is a legal power required for new railway infrastructure to be built outside of the existing operational railway boundary, which is part of the proposal between Huddersfield and Westtown (Dewsbury).

Landowners directly affected by the proposals were written to in the Summer, while every residential property and business within 1km (just over half a mile) either side of the railway will receive an invitation to the public consultation events in the post in August."

I suspect that works between Dewsbury and Leeds will remain within the boundary and therefore consultation is not needed, it does not necessarily mean that no work is taking place between Dewsbury and Leeds

I believe the main thing is the need to use additional land around Raventhorpe, to provide for a new station and dive under there. Suspect this will be Newlay Concrete and possibly Wrigglesworth Storage.

We’ve got our consultation invites today so tempting to pop along to one.

daikilo · 20 Aug 2019

59CosG95 said:
This might help explain more of the project - certainly the electrification side of it. https://www.networkrail.co.uk/runni...te-upgrade/huddersfield-to-westtown-dewsbury/

I'm intrigued as to why NR state "electrification from Huddersfield to Ravensthorpe and right through to Leeds". Are they leaving open the choice of route from Ravensthorpe to Leeds despite the considerable added distance via Normanton?

Bantamzen · 20 Aug 2019

daikilo said:
I'm intrigued as to why NR state "electrification from Huddersfield to Ravensthorpe and right through to Leeds". Are they leaving open the choice of route from Ravensthorpe to Leeds despite the considerable added distance via Normanton?

The North Trans Pennine project has been broken up into different stages, so Stalybridge to Huddersfield, Huddersfield to Ravensthorpe, Ravensthorpe to Leeds. There is some further info on this further up this thread.

But basically the plan is to wire from Huddersfield to Leeds, the Huddersfield to Ravensthorpe section will be four tracked, with the slow lines to the north & fast lines to the south of the track alignment. Then at Ravensthorpe the slow lines with dive under the fast, with the (wired) fast lines continuing to Leeds via Dewsbury. I believe this will then allow both Wakefield - Huddersfield & Leeds - Brighouse stopper services to pass through this section without snarling up the fast TransPennine services.

Transpennine Route Upgrade and Electrification updates

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