Why was so much of suburban Glasgow electrified?

dubscottie · 19 Aug 2019

edwin_m said:
BR seems to have taken a step backwards in suburban unit design. Units for both the LMS (Wirral) and the LNER (Shenfield and Hadfield) designed around WW2 had power double doors at thirds, but excepting Glasgow all BR designed units adopted Southern practice of slam doors (to every bay on shorter-distance units) until the PEP prototypes and Class 313 in the 1970s.

The 303 was deliberately made modern and made in Scotland (hence the blue livery). I cant remember the original reasons why but it was political.

Other BR units had the advantage of common design (Mk1 body) so were cheap to produce in the thousands.

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edwin_m · 20 Aug 2019

dubscottie said:
The 303 was deliberately made modern and made in Scotland (hence the blue livery). I cant remember the original reasons why but it was political.

Other BR units had the advantage of common design (Mk1 body) so were cheap to produce in the thousands.

But if BR had a design for a modern sliding door unit for Glasgow, wouldn't it have cost about the same to produce more of those as to stick with the Mk1 design for everywhere else? Equally Class 310 (and the later 312 which were a real anachronism) used Mk2-type integral construction so would have been a totally new design, but still retained slam doors including some to individual seating bays.

So I think the true reason was to do with conservatism within BR and an attitude that the Southern knew everything there was to know about surburban electric operations. Perhaps Glasgow was far enough away that the authorities in London didn't pay much attention?

30907 · 20 Aug 2019

edwin_m said:
The purely suburban electrification in Manchester, Liverpool and Newcastle dated from the pre-Grouping era when some of the more forward-looking companies electrified and improved their services, mostly in response to competition from electric trams. Apart from Glasgow, most of the suburban services converted to electric traction in the 1960s were essentially adjuncts to schemes intended for intercity passenger and freight traffic. Walsall was a partial exception but after electrifying the main passenger and freight routes and principal connecting lines it was little more than a minor infill.

So it's even more curious that the opposite policy was followed in Glasgow, electrifying not only those lines that would (a decade later) carry main line electric services, but also those that would only ever be suburban. The equivalent in Manchester for example would have been to electrify the Marple and Buxton lines, which haven't been done to this day.

You are entirely right. But the frequency of trains through Queen St LL was several times higher than any one of the Manchester routes - the Oldham loop was probably the busiest of the short-distance ones BTW - and there was a long common cross-city "core" as someone mentioned upthread. Manchester's rail routes fan out very rapidly from the centre.

Similarly Birmingham: the Cross-city route is a very successful BR-era invention, and, once invented, a good candidate for a purely suburban electrification.

Journeyman · 20 Aug 2019

AM9 said:
I wouldn't say that the 303s were particularly 'radical' in they design, after all the class 306 and 506 EMUs were fuctionallly the same (ignoring the 506's 1500VDC supply requirement). They were cosmetically different which was probably to give a marketing boost when the electric lines opened. Known as 'Blue Trains' they had a short honeymoon, as BR adopted rail blue in the mid-'60s across all non-express trains.

Oh, I agree, they'd had forerunners, but the front end was particularly striking, and compared to what they replaced (steam-hauled compartment stock) they must have seemed like spaceships. Scotland had certainly never seen anything like them before.

Journeyman · 20 Aug 2019

edwin_m said:
So I think the true reason was to do with conservatism within BR and an attitude that the Southern knew everything there was to know about surburban electric operations. Perhaps Glasgow was far enough away that the authorities in London didn't pay much attention?

Certainly the Southern had a huge influence on the design of early BR AC multiple units, but I think the main reason behind adoption of compartments and slam doors was because it was seen as suitable for middle-distance, outer-suburban use as well, where there was a need for first class and toilets - designs such as the 302, 304, 305 and 308. Sliding-door units weren't seen as suitable for that at all, until the 317s appeared in the early 80s.

AM9 · 20 Aug 2019

Journeyman said:
Certainly the Southern had a huge influence on the design of early BR AC multiple units, but I think the main reason behind adoption of compartments and slam doors was because it was seen as suitable for middle-distance, outer-suburban use as well, where there was a need for first class and toilets - designs such as the 302, 304, 305 and 308. Sliding-door units weren't seen as suitable for that at all, until the 317s appeared in the early 80s.

Yes I agree, - in addition, the benchmark to exceed was a combination of 57ft compartments of similar design and occasionally corridor MKIs and whtever was still usable from the line's big four predecessors' 30+ year-old designs. Ironically, notwithstanding some dewey-eyed nostalgia on those compartment designs, the thought of travelling from London to Colchester on a 75mph max compartment stopper (51 3/4 miles) would drive away such feelings.

d9009alycidon · 20 Aug 2019

It is worth remembering that the sliding doorgear on the AM3/AM11s was a major cause of delay for many years, they would frequently stick in cold weather causing the guard to have to leave his van and give the offending door a good kick. Unit 035 ran for a time with "Dean" doorgear that were plug type doors but they were worse and were removed in 1971. Another flaw that was unique to the AM3s was the yellow "weathering" that progressively built up on the sides of the units, covering the sides and windows. I was told that this was a combination of the type of chemicals used in the Bridgeton Wash Plant reacting with the brake dust.

Taunton · 20 Aug 2019

Notably all the air door trains discussed were built by private contractors. Those from BR workshops were the ones which continued the slam door approach.

Dr Hoo · 21 Aug 2019

The AM3/Class 303 units were built by Pressed Steel at Linwood, albeit with traditional railway components such as the awful Gresley bogies. Very much a ‘support local industry’ approach.

Thanks for the reminder of the yellow staining. A perfect storm of very intensive stopping pattern, cast iron brake blocks and ‘exmover’ cleaning solution to try and eat through the grime.

St Rollox · 21 Aug 2019

70014IronDuke said:
The OP poses an interesting question, and you make a good point about the size of the network (which I didn't know). Certainly, I remember arriving at Glasgow Central on the overnight from St Pancras at about 07.30 in 1965 and being amazed at the frequency of steam-hauled arrivals as we waited around until about 09.00. It felt like going back in time. (I didn't really take much notice of the electric service at the time.)

Interestingly, this was Good Friday, which wasn't a bank holiday in Scotland at that time.

TBH, my first reaction to the OP was "politics" (meant in a good sense here for once). Yes, the suburban service in Glasgow was and is extensive, and clearly investment had to be made, if only in DMUs, but I suspect it was felt in London that money had to be shared out, the city had been bombed and was infamous for its poor housing - and the best use of any rail investment in Scotland was the Glasgow suburban. A case of the more bums (on seats) for bucks.

I wonder if there may have been a visionary planner who thought: If we can get the wires up to Motherwell, we could also cut the investment costs for electrification to Weaver - but maybe that's a vision too far.

Had you arrived on Christmas Day 10 years earlier you would have entered a working city had it been Monday to Friday.
Christmas Day never became an official holiday in Scotland until 1958.

Journeyman · 21 Aug 2019

d9009alycidon said:
Another flaw that was unique to the AM3s was the yellow "weathering" that progressively built up on the sides of the units, covering the sides and windows. I was told that this was a combination of the type of chemicals used in the Bridgeton Wash Plant reacting with the brake dust.

Did the 311s have different brakes?

ChiefPlanner · 21 Aug 2019

Fascinating thread - would the demolition of the inner city tenement blocks , and the relocation to "suburban" estates such as Castlemilk etc , had an impact on the electric suburban plan. Ditto on the south side towards Inverclyde , and the rationalisation of the ex GSW / CR routes.

Not an expert on this region , but awfully interesting. !

yorksrob · 21 Aug 2019

From pictures I've seen, the early BR sliding door stock all had quite low back, suburban style seating. As others have mentioned, it was all very open plan as well.

It's not hard to see how this layout might have been deemed unsuitable for outer-suburban journeys to the home counties.

Taunton · 21 Aug 2019

ChiefPlanner said:
Fascinating thread - would the demolition of the inner city tenement blocks , and the relocation to "suburban" estates such as Castlemilk etc , had an impact on the electric suburban plan. Ditto on the south side towards Inverclyde , and the rationalisation of the ex GSW / CR routes.

Funny you should mention Castlemilk, but early in the Blue Train era there was an experiment with bus feeders from Castlemilk to Kings Park station, one not particularly well laid out for bus interchange. This is not on the Cathcart Circle but on the electrified branch from it to Hamilton, trains (and thus the feeder bus) were just every 15 minutes, in contrast to the very frequent service into Glasgow, and inevitably it didn't work out. It didn't help that it was Glasgow Corporation's own bus service, who were thus short-changing their own services by providing the linking service.

ChiefPlanner · 21 Aug 2019

Taunton said:
Funny you should mention Castlemilk, but early in the Blue Train era there was an experiment with bus feeders from Castlemilk to Kings Park station, one not particularly well laid out for bus interchange. This is not on the Cathcart Circle but on the electrified branch from it to Hamilton, trains (and thus the feeder bus) were just every 15 minutes, in contrast to the very frequent service into Glasgow, and inevitably it didn't work out. It didn't help that it was Glasgow Corporation's own bus service, who were thus short-changing their own services by providing the linking service.

My memory might have been jogged by reading about that one. Off topic , but the whole "decanting" of population out of inner Glasgow was just a bit controversial , and had some benefit to the railway in terms of commuting build up , on both diesel and electric routes. Others here can surely comment with correct knowledge.

dubscottie · 21 Aug 2019

edwin_m said:
But if BR had a design for a modern sliding door unit for Glasgow, wouldn't it have cost about the same to produce more of those as to stick with the Mk1 design for everywhere else? Equally Class 310 (and the later 312 which were a real anachronism) used Mk2-type integral construction so would have been a totally new design, but still retained slam doors including some to individual seating bays.

So I think the true reason was to do with conservatism within BR and an attitude that the Southern knew everything there was to know about surburban electric operations. Perhaps Glasgow was far enough away that the authorities in London didn't pay much attention?

Another reason they got sliding doors is because they were a captive fleet.

On the other regions, new stock had to work with the older stock. While a 303 could work in multiple with say a 308, the guard would have no way of controlling the doors on the 303 if he was in the van of the 308.The

The 310/312 were outer suburban units so sliding doors at 1/3 & 2/3 positions would not have been appropriate. The first long distance units with that layout were the class 165/166.

edwin_m · 22 Aug 2019

dubscottie said:
The 310/312 were outer suburban units so sliding doors at 1/3 & 2/3 positions would not have been appropriate. The first long distance units with that layout were the class 165/166.

317-321 came well before 165/166. But I take the point that BR as a whole didn't consider power doors necessary except for some (but not all) inner-suburban duties up until the late 70s when the 317 was specified. I remember Modern Railways commenting how anachronistic the 312s looked when introduced on the GN outers circa 1975, especially alongside the very modern-looking 313s built for the inners.

St Rollox · 22 Aug 2019

ChiefPlanner said:
My memory might have been jogged by reading about that one. Off topic , but the whole "decanting" of population out of inner Glasgow was just a bit controversial , and had some benefit to the railway in terms of commuting build up , on both diesel and electric routes. Others here can surely comment with correct knowledge.

Things go in cycles.
Odd side affect of the enormous increase in car ownership is that a host host of railway stations in the Glasgow area have become unofficially part of the park and ride scheme.
The car owning public have figured out taking the car into Glasgow city centre is a non starter.
Next plan, why not dump the car at anyone of the surrounding stations or the adjacent side streets and take the train.
Which in turn leads to problems elsewhere.
Railway wins obviously by the increase in passengers.
Long term of course the local public start to notice all the parking spaces seem to have disappeared in places like Springburn because of the 9 to 5 brigade.

Taunton · 22 Aug 2019

edwin_m said:
317-321 came well before 165/166. But I take the point that BR as a whole didn't consider power doors necessary except for some (but not all) inner-suburban duties up until the late 70s when the 317 was specified. I remember Modern Railways commenting how anachronistic the 312s looked when introduced on the GN outers circa 1975, especially alongside the very modern-looking 313s built for the inners.

I think overall power doors were long only specified by BR where there were city tunnel sections. The Wirral units in 1956, Glasgow in 1960, the 313s on the Moorgate line in the 1970s, were all I believe just because there were tunnel stations. Otherwise it was normal doors.

I think the first "outside" such units, apart from the PEPs, were the 507s, that initially ran out of London Waterloo (and a few of their cars still do). The 1500v units don't count because they were ordered by the LNER. Notably, when BR ordered the "Chingford" units for the Liverpool Street scheme, which are even shorter runs than to Shenfield, it was back to slam doors.

d9009alycidon · 22 Aug 2019

ChiefPlanner said:
My memory might have been jogged by reading about that one. Off topic , but the whole "decanting" of population out of inner Glasgow was just a bit controversial , and had some benefit to the railway in terms of commuting build up , on both diesel and electric routes. Others here can surely comment with correct knowledge.

I was going to post a potted history of the Glasgow "Schemes" but this article describes in much better detail the initial euphoria then despair of those involved in the decanting of whole communities from the Slums of Central Glasgow - https://warwick.ac.uk/fac/cross_fac/iatl/reinvention/archive/volume1issue1/paice/

ChiefPlanner · 22 Aug 2019

d9009alycidon said:
I was going to post a potted history of the Glasgow "Schemes" but this article describes in much better detail the initial euphoria then despair of those involved in the decanting of whole communities from the Slums of Central Glasgow - https://warwick.ac.uk/fac/cross_fac/iatl/reinvention/archive/volume1issue1/paice/

Thanks , as a geographer , I will enjoy this later on. One of my friends about 20 years ago , worked for the RIBA , and they hosted a working group up in Glasgow to see what could be done to "soften" the urban realm.

matchmaker · 22 Aug 2019

Dr Hoo said:
The AM3/Class 303 units were built by Pressed Steel at Linwood, albeit with traditional railway components such as the awful Gresley bogies. Very much a ‘support local industry’ approach.

Thanks for the reminder of the yellow staining. A perfect storm of very intensive stopping pattern, cast iron brake blocks and ‘exmover’ cleaning solution to try and eat through the grime.

"Awful" Gresley bogies as opposed to the engineering masterpiece that was the BR1?

Taunton · 22 Aug 2019

When I was in Scotland mid 1970s, mere student-plus, I was on the periphery of all this (sometimes closer), in Glasgow and Edinburgh, hence all my accounts of the Class 27 push-pull. I'm still appalled at some of the ludicrous ideas that rank amateurs (ie the councillors) in Glasgow played in enforcing their ideas on the professionals and on the inhabitants of the city. There was an extraordinary desperation to put people into public housing, managed of course by their own city housing department. Areas like that all around Kings Park station, mentioned above, were regarded with a real sneer because they were middle-class owner occupied properties - an attitude that even made it into the Gregory's Girl film, set in 1980 in Cumbernauld, another Glasgow overspill, with scripted comments about the people "up in the private houses".

Just to give you some idea of what can be done, this area in Edinburgh, Dean Village, was a ruin then, more than Gorbals, and many of the old buildings were without roofs. Nowadays, with an enterprising urban renewal, they sell for £1/2m.

https://www.google.com/maps/@55.951...4!1srUuLOi_oxA42ROKEArzEaw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

It wasn't just the Blue Trains, a lot of government money was made available in the 1960s-70s for the motorways, and also the Glasgow Underground rebuilding. That last, unfortunately, led to some dreary mass-brick boxes being provided for surface stations. I would apologise for those, I didn't do them myself but they were done by the guy at the next desk, as described here

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/glasgow-subway-discussion.101696/page-2#post-1950286

d9009alycidon · 22 Aug 2019

matchmaker said:
"Awful" Gresley bogies as opposed to the engineering masterpiece that was the BR1?

As a once regular commuter from Coatdyke to Queen Street, you quickly knew that the seats in the front coach above the rear bogie were to be avoided if possible, the vertical oscillation (aka bouncing) could be unnervingly violent!

ChiefPlanner · 22 Aug 2019

Taunton said:
When I was in Scotland mid 1970s, mere student-plus, I was on the periphery of all this (sometimes closer), in Glasgow and Edinburgh, hence all my accounts of the Class 27 push-pull. I'm still appalled at some of the ludicrous ideas that rank amateurs (ie the councillors) in Glasgow played in enforcing their ideas on the professionals and on the inhabitants of the city. There was an extraordinary desperation to put people into public housing, managed of course by their own city housing department. Areas like that all around Kings Park station, mentioned above, were regarded with a real sneer because they were middle-class owner occupied properties - an attitude that even made it into the Gregory's Girl film, set in 1980 in Cumbernauld, another Glasgow overspill, with scripted comments about the people "up in the private houses".

Just to give you some idea of what can be done, this area in Edinburgh, Dean Village, was a ruin then, more than Gorbals, and many of the old buildings were without roofs. Nowadays, with an enterprising urban renewal, they sell for £1/2m.

https://www.google.com/maps/@55.951...4!1srUuLOi_oxA42ROKEArzEaw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

It wasn't just the Blue Trains, a lot of government money was made available in the 1960s-70s for the motorways, and also the Glasgow Underground rebuilding. That last, unfortunately, led to some dreary mass-brick boxes being provided for surface stations. I would apologise for those, I didn't do them myself but they were done by the guy at the next desk, as described here

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/glasgow-subway-discussion.101696/page-2#post-1950286

The article on "the schemes" (wonderful term) , was particularly interesting , particularly for the destruction of very close knit family and peer groups out to the periphery of the city, and the ultimate breakdown due to loss of community , poor retail and social facilities , and of course the imposition of commuting onto a wage earner. No matter how poor the living accomodation in say South Glasgow was (and I think of my brief time working a at Gushetfaulds Flt) - the trip into the city centre was easy , you could even walk it , if you wanted to shop , drink or whatever. The whole area was pretty much flattened when I knew it and the area population "moved out" - leading to the odd sight of flat roofed pubs on street corners , which were the last remnants of a ground floor pub , which had been part of a classic tenement block. On reflection , and of course it went against the thread of "new cities" would have been to refurbish the best housing , and maybe build new social housing , albeit at much reduced densities , and keep the areas alive. The high rise experiment was also a disaster in Glasgow I believe - was it the "Red River Flats" around Cowlairs.?

Mind you , the practice in South Wales was equally bad - tower blocks built in common land outside Aberdare , and the disaster of the Penrhys Estate - in / above the the Rhondda Valleys - a concept based on an Italian Hill Village - in the clouds and very poorly served by a bus , with flat roofs and electric heating only. a total disaster of the worst kind. Much of it now demolished.

Anyway , and slightly off topic - but the Blue Trains played some role in coping with this unbelievable movement of the population. This kind of policy only really worked in the DDR - and there they ensured the S-Bahn or the U-Bahn was around , at rock bottom fares !

Taunton · 22 Aug 2019

The "schemes" (and alas that was the term; I remember a town planner saying a community was established when "Drumchapel Scheme" became "Drumchapel" in people's daily expressions!) were built without much reference to the rail stations. There were stations on the north side Blue Train called Easterhouse and Drumchapel, but they weren't really convenient for the bulk of the housing, and the basic 30 minute service pattern found it difficult to compete with the very frequent bus services that penetrated all the main Scheme roads and ran into the city. On the south side neither Pollok nor Castlemilk were near a station.

Outside the boundary Cumbernauld New Town appeared sited deliberately to turn its back on the railway because there was a planning concept that all employment and shopping would be self-contained within the town - a hollow joke. The one exception was the south side New Town, East Kilbride, which developed a substantial traffic on the old branch into Glasgow. Of course, this had to be single track for half the way so peak services were restricted. It crossed the Neilston branch part way along, a branch that terminated in what was a long double-track run through open country to a trivial point. Now guess which branch was electrified for the Blue Trains … yes, the Neilston one. East Kilbride was stuck with diesels, lugubriously climbing the hill (single track, remember). By the 1970s it was using cast-off 116 units from South Wales, some years previously it was apparently Clayton D85xx centre cabs, 900hp and six non-corridor coaches, probably even worse climbing. Both lines were onetime Caledonian, and there was the alignment of an old spur connecting the two that would have allowed electric service to run to East Kilbride, but, inevitably, it was never done. Glasgow Corporation hated Cumbernauld and East Kilbride, they were a Scottish Office initiative, outside the city, didn't vote for the councillors, thus Spawn of the Devil.

ChiefPlanner · 22 Aug 2019

Taunton said:
The "schemes" (and alas that was the term; I remember a town planner saying a community was established when "Drumchapel Scheme" became "Drumchapel" in people's daily expressions!) were built without much reference to the rail stations. There were stations on the north side Blue Train called Easterhouse and Drumchapel, but they weren't really convenient for the bulk of the housing, and the basic 30 minute service pattern found it difficult to compete with the very frequent bus services that penetrated all the main Scheme roads and ran into the city. On the south side neither Pollok nor Castlemilk were near a station.

Outside the boundary Cumbernauld New Town appeared sited deliberately to turn its back on the railway because there was a planning concept that all employment and shopping would be self-contained within the town - a hollow joke. The one exception was the south side New Town, East Kilbride, which developed a substantial traffic on the old branch into Glasgow. Of course, this had to be single track for half the way so peak services were restricted. It crossed the Neilston branch part way along, a branch that terminated in what was a long double-track run through open country to a trivial point. Now guess which branch was electrified for the Blue Trains … yes, the Neilston one. East Kilbride was stuck with diesels, lugubriously climbing the hill (single track, remember). By the 1970s it was using cast-off 116 units from South Wales, some years previously it was apparently Clayton D85xx centre cabs, 900hp and six non-corridor coaches, probably even worse climbing. Both lines were onetime Caledonian, and there was the alignment of an old spur connecting the two that would have allowed electric service to run to East Kilbride, but, inevitably, it was never done. Glasgow Corporation hated Cumbernauld and East Kilbride, they were a Scottish Office initiative, outside the city, didn't vote for the councillors, thus Spawn of the Devil.

Some very good observations there - but then this mismatch in planning , and dare I say it "political hatred of the railways" in those bad days was unforgiveable. Again quoting South Wales , which I know - they ran down the Valleys lines (until they were rescued by a particular manager) , to the extent that the "flagship" line to Treherbet was to be cut back to Treorchy , and singled all the way from Pontypridd to allow a new road to use part of the solum. Service on the extremities of the network , especially off peak , was to be sliced back with no through trains , with a shuttle Rhymney to Bargoed with a single unit railcar. These routes are now thriving passenger numbers wise , and the housing is far more affordable than closer to Cardiff. Even the Sunday Times quotes the area as "decent and affordable" , and talks them up.

When Chris Green went to Scotland as GM , he had to fight hard against further cuts to the Glasgow suburban network , which was apparently under the beady eyes of I presume the DfT / Treasury , with a result that the Strathclyde Manning agreement came in , (please correct me Caledonians if I am wrong) , which I gather helped reduce costs and keep the trains running until more enlightened times came along.

Taunton · 22 Aug 2019

The Schemes belonged to Glasgow Corporation, and so (until the mid-1970s) did the Glasgow buses. It was sort of inevitable that they would expect to serve them with their own service. Very frequent, cheap, 24-hour services, multiple routes through the scheme and from there across the city. An extraordinary feature was the Schemes had few or no pubs, and there was a notable late evening bus peak to and from the pubs in the nearby traditional areas - Drumchapel all went to Anniesland, for example.

Myself, and I suspect ChiefPlanner as well, had to keep a low profile on these on Saturday evenings when there had been an England-Scotland football game ...

Dr Hoo · 22 Aug 2019

ChiefPlanner said:
Some very good observations there - but then this mismatch in planning , and dare I say it "political hatred of the railways" in those bad days was unforgiveable. Again quoting South Wales , which I know - they ran down the Valleys lines (until they were rescued by a particular manager) , to the extent that the "flagship" line to Treherbet was to be cut back to Treorchy , and singled all the way from Pontypridd to allow a new road to use part of the solum. Service on the extremities of the network , especially off peak , was to be sliced back with no through trains , with a shuttle Rhymney to Bargoed with a single unit railcar. These routes are now thriving passenger numbers wise , and the housing is far more affordable than closer to Cardiff. Even the Sunday Times quotes the area as "decent and affordable" , and talks them up.

When Chris Green went to Scotland as GM , he had to fight hard against further cuts to the Glasgow suburban network , which was apparently under the beady eyes of I presume the DfT / Treasury , with a result that the Strathclyde Manning agreement came in , (please correct me Caledonians if I am wrong) , which I gather helped reduce costs and keep the trains running until more enlightened times came along.

There is much about Glasgow and the Passenger Transport Executive (originally "Greater Glasgow" but later "Strathclyde") that might be said. The city hated losing its transport identity and control of its former corporation buses but this is going rather off-thread. I had over eight years up there as a 'visiting Englishman' and quickly learnt that there were some very murky civic, ethnic and religious scores being kept. Westminster (either the DfT or the Scottish Office) seemed to have remarkably little real influence.

ChiefPlanner · 23 Aug 2019

Dr Hoo said:
There is much that could be said about Glasgow and the Passenger Transport Executive (originally "Greater Glasgow" but later "Strathclyde") that might be said. The city hated losing its transport identity and control of its former corporation buses but this is going rather off-thread. I had over eight years up there as a 'visiting Englishman' and quickly learnt that there were some very murky civic, ethnic and religious scores being kept. Westminster (either the DfT or the Scottish Office) seemed to have remarkably little real influence.

That would make a good article ! - (or lengthy post) - I like the categorisation of "civic, ethnic and religious scores" .

Why was so much of suburban Glasgow electrified?

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