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Requirement to find the guard?

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cuccir

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I note lots of members here are stating that this "instruction" has no legal standing, but:

Do you mean the general instruction which obliges someone to actively go and find the guard? Or the specific instruction mentioned in the original tweet in this thread? Or the sign at Chester?

1) Has it ever been tested in Court?

Let's get back to basics. The Regulation of the Railways Act states:

If any person—

(a)Travels or attempts to travel on a railway without having previously paid his fare, and with intent to avoid payment thereof; or
(b)Having paid his fare for a certain distance, knowingly and wilfully proceeds by train beyond that distance without previously paying the additional fare for the additional distance, and with intent to avoid payment thereof; or
(c)Having failed to pay his fare, gives in reply to a request by an officer of a railway company a false name or address,

he shall be liable on summary conviction

Railway Bylaw 18 states:
In any area not designated as a compulsory ticket area, no person shall enter any train for the purpose of travelling on the railway unless he has with him a valid ticket entitling him to travel....
No person shall be in breach of Byelaw 18(1)... if:

(i) there were no facilities in working order for the issue or validation of any ticket at the time when, and the station where, he began his journey; or (ii) there was a notice at the station where he began his journey permitting journeys to be started without a valid ticket; or (iii) an authorised person gave him permission to travel without a valid ticket.

The National Rail Conditions of Travel essentially repeats these, with a bit more info about what to where Permit to Travel machines are installed, and also clarifies that anyone with a disability who cannot access the facilities is able to travel without a ticket. It then goes on to state that if any of the above 3 conditions apply:

In these cases, you must, as soon as you are reasonably able, buy an appropriate Ticket to complete your journey. The price of the Ticket you purchase will be the same as if you had bought a Ticket at the station from which you first departed. This means that you should buy a ticket from the conductor on the train if there is one available; at an interchange station provided there is sufficient time before your connecting service; or, if neither of these is possible, at your destination.

And that is, to the best of my knowledge, it in terms of what the law has to say about ticketless travel.

From this, we can add one further clarification. Railway legislation rarely goes beyond Magistrates Court and as these don't set precedents, then there is rarely anything set. There are a few precedents but the main one cited in relation to paying once you've started travelling in relation to the Regulation of the Railways Act is Corbyn v Saunders (1978). But you can see the summary of this in the Weekly Law Reports here:

If a person, when travelling, intends to travel beyond the destination of the fare paid, he travels the additional distance with intent to avoid the required payment therefor; and if he fails to tender the outstanding balance of JJ the fare, at the latest, when passing the ticket collector on the station of destination, the requisite intent to avoid payment within section 5 (3) (a) is proved

So Corbyn is only useful in determining that intent is proven when passing an opportunity to pay at the arrival station, although it has also been cited I think to support the argument that intent is shown where someone has passed an opportunity to pay when boarding too, and I think that's a reasonable argument. What it doesn't really get into is anything about buying on the train itself.

2) Can someone point me to the EXACT part of the various Acts that states it isn't allowed?

As rs101 says, the question doesn't seem to make much sense. If the law doesn't state that you need to find a guard, then, you do not need to find the guard. There doesn't need to be a sentence saying "you don't need to find the guard".

The only scope really for argument is in terms of that statement in the NRCOT that "you must, as soon as you are reasonably able, buy an appropriate Ticket to complete your journey...This means that you should buy a ticket from the conductor on the train if there is one available" What counts as 'reasonable' or 'available' is not defined and can probably only be ascertained situationally. As has been said, it would be unreasonable for someone to seek a guard on a standing-room only 12 carriage train. And it would be unreasonable to ignore a guard walking down a train saying "anyone needs a ticket". What happens in cases which fall between these binaries would come down to an argument in court, but what can't be said is that all passengers must always seek out the guard.

In terms of the instruction at Chester and the Tweet: the law permits notices at stations or "an authorised person" to give permission to travel without a ticket, but it doesn't give either those notices or people the authority to demand that a ticket must be purchased on the train. Therefore I don't see how those specific instructions can carry legal force to oblige you to buy on the train if you are not reasonably able to do so.
 
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Llanigraham

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If you're the one saying there may be a legal requirement to seek out a guard, then I'd suggest the onus is on you to back up your claim.

I'm not saying that it is.
I'm looking for someone to provide the evidence that it is a legal requirement.
 

Llanigraham

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Some of the links provided by Cuccir above seems to provide some of the answers, but the problem as I see it is the wording "as soon as reasonably able", and where the ambiguity lies. Certainly from my experience of Court matters it is so vague that a good Barrister could argue it both ways, which is also why I ask whether it has ever been tested in Court.
I've discussed this with a couple of Magistrate friends and they cannot decide which way to take it.
 

furlong

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I've discussed this with a couple of Magistrate friends and they cannot decide which way to take it.

I think it's very simple (and I don't know why this thread is going on so long) - it is just good and sensible advice to give, but has no legal force. It is good advice because if you follow it when you reasonably can, then it makes it less likely that someone might accuse you of intending not to pay.
 

BC

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"as soon as you are reasonably able" - that is an objective test. What is reasonable for one person is not for another. You couldn't expect a wheelchair user to reasonable expect to go looking for a guard, nor for a mother with a babe in arms to do so, or someone with large luggage that they would reasonably want to remain with in case of theft.
 

Llanigraham

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I think it's very simple (and I don't know why this thread is going on so long) - it is just good and sensible advice to give, but has no legal force. It is good advice because if you follow it when you reasonably can, then it makes it less likely that someone might accuse you of intending not to pay.

Again someone making that statement but no proof that it is correct.
As I said above the wording of the Regulation is vague and by a good Barrister could be interpreted either way, as far as I can see.


"as soon as you are reasonably able" - that is an objective test. What is reasonable for one person is not for another. You couldn't expect a wheelchair user to reasonable expect to go looking for a guard, nor for a mother with a babe in arms to do so, or someone with large luggage that they would reasonably want to remain with in case of theft.

An objective tests prove nothing in law, I'm afraid.
 

BC

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An objective tests prove nothing in law, I'm afraid.
Has the man on the Clapham omnibus been shot then?

An objective test is certainly proof of if a reasonable man is performing in accordance with a bylaw. What is reasonable for one is not for another as the Bylaws themselves show with reference to disabled passengers and TVMs
 

yorkie

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How do you know it wasn't from a station beyond Liverpool? There is no requirement to delay your journey at an interchange station

2) Can someone point me to the EXACT part of the various Acts that states it isn't allowed?
Unless you can point to the "EXACT part of the various Acts" that supports your view, you need to accept that those who claim there is such a requirement are making it up. The onus is on you to prove there is such a requirement.

Repeating irrelevant questions does not make your viewpoint in any way correct.
 

BC

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Common law in the UK generally means everything is allowed unless forbidden. So unless the bylaws state that you MUST seek out the guard then it's fine to wait as you say.... As everyone on here bar one seem to realise...
 

Saperstein

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How do you know it wasn't from a station beyond Liverpool? There is no requirement to delay your journey at an interchange station.

Fair point and no I don’t know for sure but he couldn’t have arrived using Merseyrail as the low level station has a gate line and so do the first 6 Platforms of the mainline station (barriers near m&s). So he couldn’t of arrived on those platforms either.

Only the last few platforms towards the taxi rank do not have a gate line, I cannot understand why this is so.

Saperstein
 
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Saperstein

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There absolutely no requirement for you to go seeking anyone, and in any case if you are travelling on a Merseyrail train, there are no on-board staff who can sell tickets, unless a revenue protection inspector/officer/team is also present on the train; Merseyrail Guards are non-commercial.

Yes I have seen the Bylaw brigade ;) many times boarding Merseyrail trains, usually in the Liverpool loop but I have also seen them out Walton way.

At first glance I thought they were BTP.

Usually when they board the train the guard makes an announcement that it is a bylaw offence to drink on board, feet on seats ect.

As for ticket checking there is one guard who I have encountered twice now, he is very pleasant and makes an announcement from the rear cab just after departure from the first station saying his name and that he will soon be walking through the train, as he does so he says good evening to everyone.

He’s usual MO is to give the RA from the foremost set of passenger doors for a few stations before asking “tickets or passes please”.

He carries a small tablet to scan ITSO passes.

I don’t know what would happen if a passenger didn’t have a ticket though.

Saperstein.
 
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Llanigraham

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Unless you can point to the "EXACT part of the various Acts" that supports your view, you need to accept that those who claim there is such a requirement are making it up. The onus is on you to prove there is such a requirement.

Repeating irrelevant questions does not make your viewpoint in any way correct.

But that is the point, I can't find any part of the Act that says it is or isn't a requirement, which is why I asked the question.
I am not saying any point is in any way incorrect or that anyone has "made it up". As I said above the wording of Act is vague and ambiguous and that situation can, and does, lead to many legal arguments.

The only conclusion I can come to is that no-one has yet fully tested the wording of the Regulations in Court and that a presumption is being made that there is no requirement to find the Guard.
 
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Antman

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I've seen a Southeastern revenue inspector try (unsuccessfully) to slap someone with a penalty fares for not seeking the guard yet another RPI who I asked said there was no requirement to do that (assuming you couldn't buy a ticket from the station you boarded at) so clearly some staff do make up their own set of rules.

It's one thing to board a two car branch line train and go straight to the guard and buy a ticket, quite another to expect someone to go and find the guard on a 12 car train in the rush hour, indeed many passengers wouldn't know if there was a guard on the train.

I think this mythical requirement to find the guard needs to be knocked on the head once and for all any staff perpetuating it should face disciplinary action.
 
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cuccir

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The only conclusion I can come to is that no-one has yet fully tested the wording of the Regulations in Court and that a presumption is being made that there is no requirement to find the Guard.

While I am not a lawyer, I struggle to think of a circumstance in which a conviction could be obtained against someone where the main evidence against them was not finding the guard.

Remember the statement about taking reasonable action to pay on board is in the NRCOT and not in either the Bylaws or the Regulation of the Railways Act (RORA).

If our hypothetical passenger has boarded as at a station without facilities, then they cannot be found guilty of Bylaw 18(1) ("No person shall be in breach of Bylaw 18(1) if... there were no facilities in working order for the issue or validation of any ticket at the time when, and the station where, he began his journey"), whatever happens next. If they boarded at a station with facilities, then walking past those facilities is already enough to get them for Bylaw 18(1) regardless of seeking the guard. So in terms of the Bylaws, seeking out the guard is not relevant - a passenger is either guilty or not guilty upon boarding the train.

In terms of the RORA, the question is about showing intent to avoid a fare. Corbyn can be used to argue that intent need only be temporary and not permanent, so if someone passes facilities at their boarding station there may already be evidence of intent to avoid a fare for the RORA. This evidence is much stronger if matched with an answer along the lines of "I wouldn't have paid" when the passenger is asked by an RPI, a guard (or whoever has stopped them) "What would you have done today if I hadn't stopped you" as this meets the stricter interpretation of Corbyn as only applying to the end of a journey. In this context, not seeking out the guard could be further evidence for intent to avoid a fare (and having sought out a guard on-board would probably be sufficient evidence to undermine a RORA prosecution) but it would be less important than (1) passing facilities at the start and (2) admitting an intent to leave without paying.

This leaves us with someone boarding at a station without facilities, who does not buy on board, and then is stopped by an RPI. For a RORA prosecution, the key bit of evidence would still be the answer to the Corbyn test. In this context, if someone said "I'd have bought my ticket at the ticket office at my destination", then the only possible evidence against them would be not seeking out the guard (let's ignore for now journeys involving changes of trains as this doesn't really change things for seeking out the guard). This would, I think, be a very weak case, given that to avoid prosecution the passenger would only have to either (1) point to the NRCOT and show that there was some good reason for not seeking the guard or (2) sow reasonable doubt in the mind of a Magistrate that they intended to avoid a fare: "I didn't know there was a guard on board"; "I was waiting for the guard to come round"; "I didn't want to bother the guard as she/he looked to be doing important safety work"; "I didn't buy from the guard as I intended to buy at the ticket office" etc etc.

Of course there may be other evidence eg someone having actively tried to avoid the guard on board, someone giving false details and addresses, etc, which might then be compounded with not seeking out the guard, but again I don't think it would be the key bit of evidence.
 
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joke2711

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On my Northern service last night .. we departed the station and the guard came out of the rear cab .. you could hear the active rustle as passengers got their tickets ready for inspection .. the guard picked up a metro from the nearest seat and disappeared into the cab again.

Should passengers have to actively seek the Guard out to request a ticket. I would answer no ... but as the train terminated at Wigan Wallgate which has barriers .. then you are at the discretion of those individuals.

There has to be some uniform approach soon as the law abiding passenger is constantly being unfairly treated.
 

shredder1

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Of interest a few countries in Europe have this in place, I was in Poland the other month on a suburban service out of Gdansk, and passengers on boarding the service formed a queue along the entire coach with the guard stood at the top of the aisle issuing tickets, I noticed two in the queue give up and alighted, presumably at their stop.
 

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The requirement to seek out the guard is another example of the railway making up their own rules to suit them. A bit like their made up rules on Penalty Fares.
 

etr221

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A thought I had: IF there is a requirement to find the the guard, then the guard should be findable - and if they can't be found, that's because they are missing - and I would say that justifies using the emergency alarm...

Just saying...
 

Saperstein

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I don’t know what would happen if a passenger didn’t have a ticket though.

Saperstein.

Well yesterday, on a Wirral line service, I got my answer.

I was sat in the last car this time and the guard came out of the rear cab, carriage key in hand and walked forward though the train.

After a few stations, and presumably ticket checking in the first two cars he announced “tickets and passes please” in our car.

One gentleman claimed he had lost his ticket and after a brief discussion, he was simply asked to leave the train at the next station.

Saperstein.
 

TurbostarFan

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A thought I had: IF there is a requirement to find the the guard, then the guard should be findable - and if they can't be found, that's because they are missing - and I would say that justifies using the emergency alarm...

Just saying...
What if it's a DOO train?
 

175mph

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Of interest a few countries in Europe have this in place, I was in Poland the other month on a suburban service out of Gdansk, and passengers on boarding the service formed a queue along the entire coach with the guard stood at the top of the aisle issuing tickets, I noticed two in the queue give up and alighted, presumably at their stop.
In Poland, do they have barriers or random revenue blocks at stations?
 

yorkie

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The operation of the train is an irrelevance, as I said earlier.
 

Busaholic

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A thought I had: IF there is a requirement to find the the guard, then the guard should be findable - and if they can't be found, that's because they are missing - and I would say that justifies using the emergency alarm...

Just saying...
Where's Wally? was a hugely popular kids' book about thirty years ago. Perhaps Where's the Guard? might prove equally as popular now (but there again...)
 

TurbostarFan

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The operation of the train is an irrelevance, as I said earlier.
Alright sorry about that, I was being pedantic and I meant that in the context of there being an expectation to seek out the guard on every train. What if there is no member of traincrew or staff (apart from the driver) present? What if the guard is present but hidden in his cab? That reminds me of once when I wanted to get off at Spooner Row and the guard was in his rear cab on a GA service from Cambridge to Norwich; I had to go into First Class and knock on the guards cab door.
 

najaB

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That reminds me of once when I wanted to get off at Spooner Row and the guard was in his rear cab on a GA service from Cambridge to Norwich; I had to go into First Class and knock on the guards cab door.
I hope you let the TOC know that the guard wasn't conducting the train in safe manner.
 
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