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West Coast Partnership: Awarded to First Trenitalia

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Bletchleyite

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No thank you, that wont be getting me to London in under 3 hours as is the case now.

Changing at Chester/Crewe with a timed cross-platform connection (so perhaps 5 minutes between arrival and departure) and straight onto HS2 would get you there quicker than now. While some people prefer direct services, I reckon a significant number of people will eschew the through services in favour of this even if they remain.
 
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krus_aragon

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We know this not to the the case as they have announced there will be extra direct trains to London from North Wales, on weekends , new trains s , later trains leaving Wales for London in the week and also a new direct service form Llandudno. So changing trains wont be happening.
Certainly not for the first (WCML) phase of the franchise. Denyboy was asking after post-HS2 services on the WCML. I'm pretty sure that Chester and North Wales are still in the "don't know yet" box after HS2 opens. But as Bletchleyite says, there's not much point in debating that stuff now, as the recent announcements only relate to the pre-HS2 phase.
 
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pt_mad

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By running 2 X coupled units in the current Euston to Chester path, essentially you have room for another working without needing to use another path out of Euston.

I.e. run a 5 car bi-mode to Chester, with a couple up EMU going on (to say Liverpool?) and splitting off at Crewe.


Seems totally logical and can only assume the reason VT didn't look at this as part of their original franchise, such as when they applied for the extra (was it 7?) Liverpools which got rejected, that it was due to not enough Voyagers to double them up at least to Crewe and split off.
 

HowardGWR

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The press release promises "Catering with Household brands" That means Walkers crisps, Lipton tea, Kit Kats, and soggy sandwiches made with genuine Hovis Bread.

I doubt we will see anything remotely like Virgin's Summer Thali salad.

The shop offering, especially on the Pendolinos is pretty good. I'm going to miss that.

https://www.westcoastrail.co.uk/plan.html
It also says "as well as an exciting new on-board food offer". I don't think that could describe your interpretation. The proof will be in the pudding of course.
 

krus_aragon

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By running 2 X coupled units in the current Euston to Chester path, essentially you have room for another working without needing to use another path out of Euston.

I.e. run a 5 car bi-mode to Chester, with a couple up EMU going on (to say Liverpool?) and splitting off at Crewe.


Seems totally logical and can only assume the reason VT didn't look at this as part of their original franchise, such as when they applied for the extra (was it 7?) Liverpools which got rejected, that it was due to not enough Voyagers to double them up at least to Crewe and split off.
It's a good idea. The reservation I have is with the Wrexham(/Gobowen) services: as these are continuing, the EMU destination would miss out at peak times unless they're served with a separate, peak-time path.

Or perhaps, as a mad suggestion, they could run two bi-modes and an EMU all coupled together from P15 at Euston to P12 at Crewe, and split them there. (Both platforms are over 400m, long enough for 15 26m carriages.)
 

158756

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Im not saying 0 trains should stop at OOC, but for your argument about Heathrow why should the Glasgow Fasts stop there? People from Preston aren't going to go from Heathrow, neither are people from Manchester.

Assuming air travel is still around by the time HS2 opens, there'll be plenty of traffic to Heathrow. People from Scotland wanting to go somewhere with no direct flights from Scotland, from the North West it will be as easy to reach Heathrow as Manchester - if the third runway is built it could easily absorb all business traffic to the North.
 

RealTrains07

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Anyone know if First will retain stafford station?

seeing a lot of LNR staff checking tickets at stafford a station which they don’t manage
 

LNW-GW Joint

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I hope First-Trenitalia can introduce good services once HS2 is complete, there are already planned services on Wikipedia ( I know), and these don't look too great. Firstly I might be missing something but im struggling to see why every single service should stop at Old Oak common, for example I doubt many people coming from north of Crewe would interchange there. Secondly, a lot more services will start/terminate at intermediate stations on the WCML, meaning there are less London services.
For example, at Warrington, there will be 3TPH to Scotland (2 to Glasgow, 1 to Edinburgh), however, there will be 1TPH to London. That means there will be more trains heading for Birmingham than there are to London. Wigan also suffers this, although Wigan receives services to Manchester interchange, despite only having 200,000 more passengers than Warrington, it receives DOUBLE the amount of services per hour, along with all of the Northern and TPE services.
I hope that, being Wikipedia this info is all nonsense, and that I can take it by a pinch of salt, but if it is then they need to revise it.

I wouldn't bother reading Wikipedia on the detail of future services after HS2 opens.
There's a lot of water to go under the bridge regarding the specification and timescale of HS2 construction, let alone the mix of services running on both HS2 and the Stephenson route.
Remember it is also phased, with (at the moment) 3 distinct stages: (a) to Lichfield, (b) to Crewe, and (c) to Golborne (Wigan).
For the time being we can only really concentrate on the initial WCML franchise proposals, as these might well become "permanent".
At least there is now an incumbent TOC to influence the DfT/HS2 Ltd in their planning.
 

The Ham

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Im not saying 0 trains should stop at OOC, but for your argument about Heathrow why should the Glasgow Fasts stop there? People from Preston aren't going to go from Heathrow, neither are people from Manchester.

Assuming that the Southern Approach to Heathrow is built OOC would be a good interchange for Woking, Guildford, Portsmouth and Basingstoke, even without it OOC would be a good interchange for Southampton, Salisbury and Basingstoke amongst others.
 

RealTrains07

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Anyone know if First will own/run stafford when they takeover? Weirdly saw alot of LNR staff at stafford today

Iam guessing nothing will change but just thought i would ask as First could be planning changes like that when they takeover??
 

Class 170101

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3. The ECML has fewer branches/diversions that also need serving.
ECML:- Lincoln, Hull, Harrogate, Skipton, Bradford, Huddersfield, Middlesbrough, Sunderland, Aberdeen, Glasgow Central, Inverness - total 11.

WCML:- Birmingham, Manchester x2 routes, Liverpool (x2 routes maybe), Shrewsbury, Wrexham, Holyhead, Blackpool North, Glasgow, Edinburgh either 10 or 11 depending upon Liverpool routes either both via Runcorn or the new service being routed via Warrington BQ instead.

Chester could be wired, I suppose, the Coast is unlikely to be. This does make me wonder about other options such as not having direct North Wales to London services at all, instead having a well-timed hourly connection at Chester (wired) or Crewe (if Chester wasn't wired), but in addition reinstating the fast hourly Holyhead-Birmingham via Stafford operated using IC bi-modes. That might actually be better for demand than what we have now.

Is there capacity between Birmingham New Street and Holyhead for such a service? I might consider extending a Euston to Birmingham New Street service forward if they were capacity and demand.

Assuming that the Southern Approach to Heathrow is built OOC would be a good interchange for Woking, Guildford, Portsmouth and Basingstoke, even without it OOC would be a good interchange for Southampton, Salisbury and Basingstoke amongst others.

Personally as I have said elsewhere I hope some of the Heathrow Express paths are used for a Paddington to Portsmouth and Southampton services via Old Oak, Heathrow and Woking.
 

krus_aragon

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Is there capacity between Birmingham New Street and Holyhead for such a service? I might consider extending a Euston to Birmingham New Street service forward if they were capacity and demand
No capacity around Wolverhampton at present. Post-HS2 may be different.
 

TrainTube

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Assuming that the Southern Approach to Heathrow is built OOC would be a good interchange for Woking, Guildford, Portsmouth and Basingstoke, even without it OOC would be a good interchange for Southampton, Salisbury and Basingstoke amongst others.
That's a big IF, a southern approach to Heathrow has been talked about for years, I doubt it will happen. What would be just as good is if there would be a link between Clapham junction and OOC, I know the Overground is planned for this but the Overground is slow and will get overcrowded anyway. I would love a southern approach to Heathrow as it would be convenient for us on the SWML, but I doubt it will happen as A) there are lots of roads to cross north of Feltham, and a tunnel would be quite expensive, and B) because there will be people protesting because they're conservative.
 

TrainTube

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Assuming air travel is still around by the time HS2 opens, there'll be plenty of traffic to Heathrow. People from Scotland wanting to go somewhere with no direct flights from Scotland, from the North West it will be as easy to reach Heathrow as Manchester - if the third runway is built it could easily absorb all business traffic to the North.
Why wouldn't they simply fly to Heathrow and get a connecting flight, seems a bit much getting a train 400 miles to an Airport.
 

Glenn1969

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I don't think the Heathrow 3rd runway will happen either. Boris will block it if he gets the kind of majority I think he expects to at the next election
 

TrainTube

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Bear in mind that there are no wires west of Crewe, and electrification to Chester (let alone the coast) is believed to be costly. There's been no suggestion yet that any Classic-Compatibles will be bi-mode, and no official plan for HS2 timetables has mentioned Chester at all. This isn't a new issue, though: it's been discussed here on HS2 threads in the past.



They may also be going to Reading, London's financial district, or other locations on Crossrail or London Overground.
That's true, will Crossrail be overground at OOC? If so then that would be quicker to central London then continuing to Euston.
 

The Ham

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That's a big IF, a southern approach to Heathrow has been talked about for years, I doubt it will happen. What would be just as good is if there would be a link between Clapham junction and OOC, I know the Overground is planned for this but the Overground is slow and will get overcrowded anyway. I would love a southern approach to Heathrow as it would be convenient for us on the SWML, but I doubt it will happen as A) there are lots of roads to cross north of Feltham, and a tunnel would be quite expensive, and B) because there will be people protesting because they're conservative.

Not wanting to stop the discussion, but there's another thread for the Southern Approach proposal and we'll only get told about it by a moderator if we carry on here:

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/heathrow-southern-link-proposals.159625/
 

6Gman

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Chester could be wired, I suppose, the Coast is unlikely to be.

My understanding is that there are two problems with wiring to Chester:

1. Numerous overbridges which - rather bizarrely - appear to be Listed. (I'd just blow them up and replace as necessary)
2. Christleton Tunnel. Too low for wiring - can't be lowered, as it already floods.
 

pt_mad

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Anyone know if First will own/run stafford when they takeover? Weirdly saw alot of LNR staff at stafford today

Iam guessing nothing will change but just thought i would ask as First could be planning changes like that when they takeover??
Don't think there was any plan in the prospectus for alternative operator other than the main West Coast Partnership Franchise. And I think Wolverhampton was in the ITT for the West Midlands Franchise and so it was known ahead that that would transfer away from (VT) in 2018. No such thing with Stafford, and the franchise map shown with the DFT announcement shows improvements for Stafford such as refurbished waiting rooms. I'd say from that you can be fairly confident Stafford will stay in the West Coast Partnership.

To add it's not unusual for another TOC to have staff doing revenue checks at another operator's station. Cross Country obviously do this a lot. Roving revenue inspectors might be doing ticket checks while they change trains at a station between routes while they have half hour or whatever, with the station's permission.
 

Andrew*Debbie

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Why wouldn't they simply fly to Heathrow and get a connecting flight, seems a bit much getting a train 400 miles to an Airport.

We've done that twice with a connecting flight from MAN to LHR. Once time our flight was delayed 4 hours due to fog. We had to sprint across Heathrow and barely made the flight to LAX. Another time our luggage didn't make the connection. It turned up nearly two weeks later.

If you aren't flying entirely on BA, connecting at LHR can be fun.


We live on Anglesey. BNG to MIA has improved but most journeys are 2:50 with 2 changes. The flight to LHR is 1:10 gate-to-gate. Train to Euston and tube to LHR is cheaper and often takes less time. Taxi to Paddington + HX is faster than flying out of Manchester.

We much prefer taking the train to London and flying direct from LHR.
 

krus_aragon

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We live on Anglesey. BNG to MIA has improved but most journeys are 2:50 with 2 changes. The flight to LHR is 1:10 gate-to-gate. Train to Euston and tube to LHR is cheaper and often takes less time. Taxi to Paddington + HX is faster than flying out of Manchester.
I'm living east of Anglesey these days, so I can take advantage of the Llandudno-Manchester Airport trains which run for most of the day. (They're available from Bangor with one change, but that connection bumps the time up to three hours, so is a bit slower than the two-change option.) On the up side, in a few years' time (2022), the Manchester Airport services will operate to Bangor instead for you.

When I was searching for a transatlantic flight earlier this year, I found that the price savings for flying from London instead of Manchester were negated by the additional rail fare, because I'd have to arrive at Euston in the morning peak. It didn't cross my mind to seek a connecting flight from Manchester, but I wouldn't expect it to have been a money saver.
 

Bletchleyite

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When I was searching for a transatlantic flight earlier this year, I found that the price savings for flying from London instead of Manchester were negated by the additional rail fare, because I'd have to arrive at Euston in the morning peak. It didn't cross my mind to seek a connecting flight from Manchester, but I wouldn't expect it to have been a money saver.

Assuming you have the holiday entitlement to do it, I'd travel off peak and stay over - this is also lower risk for your flight. Hotels near Heathrow are surprisingly not that expensive because the market is flooded with them, so most likely you'll pay less that way too.
 

Aictos

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Don't think there was any plan in the prospectus for alternative operator other than the main West Coast Partnership Franchise. And I think Wolverhampton was in the ITT for the West Midlands Franchise and so it was known ahead that that would transfer away from (VT) in 2018. No such thing with Stafford, and the franchise map shown with the DFT announcement shows improvements for Stafford such as refurbished waiting rooms. I'd say from that you can be fairly confident Stafford will stay in the West Coast Partnership.

To add it's not unusual for another TOC to have staff doing revenue checks at another operator's station. Cross Country obviously do this a lot. Roving revenue inspectors might be doing ticket checks while they change trains at a station between routes while they have half hour or whatever, with the station's permission.

Just to point out that this has happened multiple times at Peterborough in the past with both the InterCity East Coast operator and the NSE operator working together on the gateline checking tickets, indeed once they had Cross Country, East Coast and FCC work together with the BTP on a operation there a few years ago.
 

Along the bay

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Chester could be wired, I suppose, the Coast is unlikely to be. This does make me wonder about other options such as not having direct North Wales to London services at all, instead having a well-timed hourly connection at Chester (wired) or Crewe (if Chester wasn't wired), but in addition reinstating the fast hourly Holyhead-Birmingham via Stafford operated using IC bi-modes. That might actually be better for demand than what we have now.
Why not link it to a Euston to Birmingham service therefore a direct service is retained albeit slower and it would provide links to Coventry from destinations beyond Birmingham and also provides a much faster link to Birmingham international than the present TFW rail service
 

swt_passenger

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That's true, will Crossrail be overground at OOC? If so then that would be quicker to central London then continuing to Euston.
Of course it will. It runs on the existing GW reliefs from the western portal at Royal Oak, and will use the four relief side platforms in the surface part of OOC station.
 

RealTrains07

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HS2 review announced today, you think their is any possibility it would get cancelled. Unlikely but a thought?

If it was would it affect First running the West Coast Partnership?? Would the review in general?

I cant see the review having much affect but it was just a thought.
 

The Planner

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I think its a valid thought, the bidders would be gambling on having the first years of HS2 with the revenue and premiums they would expect to pay back to the DfT. If it gets canned I can imagine First will be thinking of putting their hand in their pocket to reach for the keys.
 
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In normal circumstances in a contract (however this is the DFT) and as the final go ahead for HS2 hadn't happened yet when the ITT was released, you would hope there would be a mechanism factored in to the tender document/franchise agreement to allow for HS2 being curtailed/ seriously delayed or not happening.
 
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