hey guys. I have offers for both these toc at the depots in brackets. Thought I knew what I wanted but having read a few more posts on here I’m now more confused than ever. Can anyone share any experience with each company they may have plz? Need to make my decision ASAP so any advice or info would be greatly appreciated thanks
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Arriva rail (New cross gate) vs SE (Victoria)
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chillipalmer50
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Arriva rail 100% personal better company and more money compared to Southeastern
And putting in the factor where u live
And putting in the factor where u live
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Quakkerillo
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@chillipalmer50 It'd be helpful to OP if you actually told them why.
I am a SE driver based at Victoria and it's not that bad but saying that most young drivers are leaving or trying to leave. The older drivers are comfortable and have few years until they retire otherwise they would also be leaving. A fellow driver is leaving to go Arriva (New Cross) and I have seen a few diagrams and they are shocking. 150+ stops with bare minimum break. You should check t&c's for both and make your decision based on that. Also distance to get to either depot.
I'm gutted he is leaving tbh.
Same with some SE diagrams too. 10 Orpy Vics are a nightmare (even with the break up at Bromley South). Hayes and back with a double rounder is a punishment. Endless poppers. Orpy Cannons are fatigue inducing etc etc. Anything Metro based takes a certain mentality. Hopefully Vic will keep their Mainline work and get a few more.
Agreed.
My personal priorities are : Getting to and from work, Pay, Turn length, Start/Finish times, Annual leave. Not much else bothers me too much. Maybe when I first started my priorities were different but now I have a family and a mortgage
chillipalmer50
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I agreed with is after having a family and mortgageI'm gutted he is leaving tbh.
Same with some SE diagrams too. 10 Orpy Vics are a nightmare (even with the break up at Bromley South). Hayes and back with a double rounder is a punishment. Endless poppers. Orpy Cannons are fatigue inducing etc etc. Anything Metro based takes a certain mentality. Hopefully Vic will keep their Mainline work and get a few more.
Agreed.
My personal priorities are : Getting to and from work, Pay, Turn length, Start/Finish times, Annual leave. Not much else bothers me too much. Maybe when I first started my priorities were different but now I have a family and a mortgage
Thanks for the reply. Can I ask how long you have worked there? What reason has your colleague given for leaving to go to Arriva?
I'm gutted he is leaving tbh.
Same with some SE diagrams too. 10 Orpy Vics are a nightmare (even with the break up at Bromley South). Hayes and back with a double rounder is a punishment. Endless poppers. Orpy Cannons are fatigue inducing etc etc. Anything Metro based takes a certain mentality. Hopefully Vic will keep their Mainline work and get a few more.
Agreed.
My personal priorities are : Getting to and from work, Pay, Turn length, Start/Finish times, Annual leave. Not much else bothers me too much. Maybe when I first started my priorities were different but now I have a family and a mortgage
Your comments on my other thread along with the comments in the mess room thread prompted me to post this question lol
Am I to assume u are a SE driver at Victoria and not happy there?
I'm not a Vic Driver. They guy who is going to LO is a friend of mine and he and I have discussed it.
Money is important and the wage disparity will only get worse. SE have a long way to catch up and I don't have any confidence that they will any time soon. They have a franchise in limbo which is causing stagnation. New stock will breath life into it but that is looking to be a few years away. Gekko is right. The new Drivers are only passing through and in recent years I have never seen so much in terms of staff turnover. New Drivers are certainly chasing the money as it does have a impact on our decisions and when your younger you can make bank, clear debts, buy a shiny new car and get a mortgage a lot easier with a higher salary. Others are leaving because they are in that stage of life where they are moving and starting families. The Southeast is expensive and with a license you are incredibly employable for other TOCS. Living in Central London is giving Vic/Cross Drivers huge opportunities for movement because they have access to numerous TOCS. SE also suffers turnover because some TOCs only hire qualified Drivers. Easy to get another TOC to pay to train and then poach.
Older Drivers are happy to float along. I'm quite settled where I am and I'm generally happy with my wages compared to my expenditure.
SE has got a reputation amongst other TOCs. There is no real solidarity in the driving grade compared to others and they have a weaker Union because of it. Conditions are debatable but SE Management tend to take a more draconian approach to everything, especially Safety of the line incidents. I am shocked the way they treat their staff.
Anything SE Metro is pretty hard and can swallow you hole. I've known some to leave because they are sick of the grind. Mainline driving is attractive to some and I understand why. DOO is some kind of hell and that has become less appealing and the newer Drivers see the appeal of driving with a Guard.
LO is similar and also has similar disadvantages but an LO Driver would be better placed to discuss that.
SE isn't bad but it as been sliding downwards for a while.
Money is important and the wage disparity will only get worse. SE have a long way to catch up and I don't have any confidence that they will any time soon. They have a franchise in limbo which is causing stagnation. New stock will breath life into it but that is looking to be a few years away. Gekko is right. The new Drivers are only passing through and in recent years I have never seen so much in terms of staff turnover. New Drivers are certainly chasing the money as it does have a impact on our decisions and when your younger you can make bank, clear debts, buy a shiny new car and get a mortgage a lot easier with a higher salary. Others are leaving because they are in that stage of life where they are moving and starting families. The Southeast is expensive and with a license you are incredibly employable for other TOCS. Living in Central London is giving Vic/Cross Drivers huge opportunities for movement because they have access to numerous TOCS. SE also suffers turnover because some TOCs only hire qualified Drivers. Easy to get another TOC to pay to train and then poach.
Older Drivers are happy to float along. I'm quite settled where I am and I'm generally happy with my wages compared to my expenditure.
SE has got a reputation amongst other TOCs. There is no real solidarity in the driving grade compared to others and they have a weaker Union because of it. Conditions are debatable but SE Management tend to take a more draconian approach to everything, especially Safety of the line incidents. I am shocked the way they treat their staff.
Anything SE Metro is pretty hard and can swallow you hole. I've known some to leave because they are sick of the grind. Mainline driving is attractive to some and I understand why. DOO is some kind of hell and that has become less appealing and the newer Drivers see the appeal of driving with a Guard.
LO is similar and also has similar disadvantages but an LO Driver would be better placed to discuss that.
SE isn't bad but it as been sliding downwards for a while.
Bromley boy
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Since you said SE Victoria, I’d go with that over ARL. The money at ARL is better, but the work also needs to be considered. SE Victoria still have some good (as in mainline express) work in their starter link.
ARL is relentless all station stop DOO work, probably the worst work on the entire U.K. network. But by all accounts it is a good company to work for. SE on the other hand is apparently shocking from an employment perspective (not that I’ve ever worked for either company).
If you’d said you’d been offered an SE metro depot I’d have recommended you go with ARL for more money and similar work but, since you are looking at Victoria, I’d go with that! You’ll get a decent mix of mainline and metro work.
I’d take that in preference to ARL NXG: three aspect signals through the ELL core; only signing one route; relentless all station stops work. But you need to weigh up whether the extra money is worth it to you!
Ultimately, both are starter TOCs, a way to get a key and leave ASAP.
Really? Is he leaving SE Victoria for ARL? What are his reasons, out of interest?
I’m aware (through some contacts) of at least one SE driver who left to ARL and returned!
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Bromley boy
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I get the impression they do this in an attempt to force people to stay (poor safety record = less chance of other TOCs taking you). Its counterproductive though because freight have taken on blokes from SE with absolutely frightening records and anyone with a clean record can basically go where they like (vacancies permitting).
But that same bloke then went to GTR!
I have to agree that ARL is probably one of the only TOCs to have more repetitive and intensive work than the SE metro depots. On the plus side ARL only work one length of train so if you choose SE and end up doing a stop short door release you might wish you'd chosen ARL!
Chances are Vic bottom link will become TFL anyway when the franchise fiasco finally gets sorted so you could end up doing metro only at Vic as an ARL employee - but still on SE money because it's not been harmonised! Then you'd really be spitting blood.
My advice would be neither... plenty of better TOCs in London to work for... but if you have to choose one I'd choose ARL for the security and wages.
whoosh
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I don't work for either company, but I know there are a LOT of 04-something starts at New Cross Gate, and a lot of 01-something finishes. There are also more night turns on Fridays and Saturdays as trains run all night between New Cross Gate and Highbury & Islington night tube style.
ARL are on a 34 hour week, with an average turn length of 8h15 so it should actually feel like 33 unless you get unlucky all the time off spare.
About 50% of Sundays worked.
How does South Eastern at Victoria shape up in comparison?
ARL are on a 34 hour week, with an average turn length of 8h15 so it should actually feel like 33 unless you get unlucky all the time off spare.
About 50% of Sundays worked.
How does South Eastern at Victoria shape up in comparison?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't the night tube jobs at New Cross Gate in a separate link that you have to volunteer for?
SE is a 35hr 4 day week, sundays inside, maximum job length 9hrs 15m (which is a long time on intensive work).
Victoria used to be classed as a "non residential" depot and had a taxi agreement and reasonable start/finish times, however that is now out the window and they have 04xx starts and 01xx finishes too, plus some nights. The fact that management did this and the union were complicit in it speaks volumes.
Vic used to sign only the Chatham stuff and go all the way to the coast, having some pretty decent work. A few years ago they signed Charing Cross and Cannon Street and everything in the DOO metro area making the bottom link jobs pretty grim. Mainline wise they only go to Canterbury via Maidstone East and Faversham I believe - however the vast bulk of this work is top link. Once thameslink start running on the Maidstone East line you have to wonder how much of this work Vic will retain.
Also, if SE metro does go over to TFL (which is very much on the cards), then you'll be stuck doing ARL work for less money, with the chances of all night running on Orpy-Vics being pretty high anyway.
Travel facilities are another factor to consider.... with SE you get free SE and GTR plus the 75% priv card (after 6 months). With TFL you get free TFL tube, buses etc plus the 75% priv. Presumably you also get other Arriva TOCs free, but not sure about that. If you live in London the free TFL for you and your family is a big consideration. SE staff pay full price on the tube and bus.
SE is a 35hr 4 day week, sundays inside, maximum job length 9hrs 15m (which is a long time on intensive work).
Victoria used to be classed as a "non residential" depot and had a taxi agreement and reasonable start/finish times, however that is now out the window and they have 04xx starts and 01xx finishes too, plus some nights. The fact that management did this and the union were complicit in it speaks volumes.
Vic used to sign only the Chatham stuff and go all the way to the coast, having some pretty decent work. A few years ago they signed Charing Cross and Cannon Street and everything in the DOO metro area making the bottom link jobs pretty grim. Mainline wise they only go to Canterbury via Maidstone East and Faversham I believe - however the vast bulk of this work is top link. Once thameslink start running on the Maidstone East line you have to wonder how much of this work Vic will retain.
Also, if SE metro does go over to TFL (which is very much on the cards), then you'll be stuck doing ARL work for less money, with the chances of all night running on Orpy-Vics being pretty high anyway.
Travel facilities are another factor to consider.... with SE you get free SE and GTR plus the 75% priv card (after 6 months). With TFL you get free TFL tube, buses etc plus the 75% priv. Presumably you also get other Arriva TOCs free, but not sure about that. If you live in London the free TFL for you and your family is a big consideration. SE staff pay full price on the tube and bus.
Hey guys, all this info has been really helpful and I appreciate everyone that took the time to comment, I think with all the info I’m gona go with ARL, my main reason for goin to SE was the routes but from what everyone has said I’ll be better off at ARL. I didn’t realise NXG have a car park for their drivers as well so this will be much more convenient for me!! Thanks again everyone
Bromley boy
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Hey guys, all this info has been really helpful and I appreciate everyone that took the time to comment, I think with all the info I’m gona go with ARL, my main reason for goin to SE was the routes but from what everyone has said I’ll be better off at ARL. I didn’t realise NXG have a car park for their drivers as well so this will be much more convenient for me!! Thanks again everyone
Sounds like a sensible decision.
I’d say focus on keeping your nose clean and then see where you are after a couple of years with a key.
All the best with it!
Appreciate that, thanks a lot
I'd say GWR is the best non InterCity only TOC to work at in London ie Paddington as it has a huge swathe of depots in very nice locations you can do moves to. Southern has very few depot a outside the London commuter belt only Barnham and Eastbourne spring to mind.
Depends if you're happy in London. Southeastern have outer depots in Faversham , Ramsgate, Hastings, Dover and Gillingham with high speed work available too
I don't know Kent well at all so not sure how attractive the county is to live in. Canterbury looks lovely.
DOO is easier with internal cameras in a brand new train which are optimum quality. Networkers use external cameras or perhaps the look back technique which is much worse
Overground does look mind numbing
Depends if you're happy in London. Southeastern have outer depots in Faversham , Ramsgate, Hastings, Dover and Gillingham with high speed work available too
I don't know Kent well at all so not sure how attractive the county is to live in. Canterbury looks lovely.
DOO is easier with internal cameras in a brand new train which are optimum quality. Networkers use external cameras or perhaps the look back technique which is much worse
Overground does look mind numbing
Imagine night bus popular then
whoosh
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According to ASLEF website it's 32 days leave (Bank Holidays are a normal working day) at ARL, increasing to 34 after five years.
Sometimes the ASLEF website contains errors, but I have seen other documentation stating this.
28 days leave at South Eastern according to the ASLEF site, is that correct?
Silly really. Everyone has to travel into London depots, so making them less desirable to work at just leaves shortages. When GN merged with Thameslink, FCC got rid of London Allowance for Kings Cross depot. A fair few drivers transferred to Hitchin as it was the same distance for them to get to, but there was no incentive to stay.
I know that's pay, but the changes to start/finish times and taxis you mention must have a similar effect.
Very true.
Sometimes the ASLEF website contains errors, but I have seen other documentation stating this.
28 days leave at South Eastern according to the ASLEF site, is that correct?
Actually, now you mention it, that might be the case.
Silly really. Everyone has to travel into London depots, so making them less desirable to work at just leaves shortages. When GN merged with Thameslink, FCC got rid of London Allowance for Kings Cross depot. A fair few drivers transferred to Hitchin as it was the same distance for them to get to, but there was no incentive to stay.
I know that's pay, but the changes to start/finish times and taxis you mention must have a similar effect.
Very true.
There are some absolutely lovely places in Kent and some places with serious poverty, crime and social problems. The good news is that not far from all the dumps there are some wonderful places to live, however prices in the nice places are not cheap due to it all being in the south east. Places like Sevenoaks, Tonbridge, Tunbridge Wells etc are all nice places to live but you'll pay for the privilege. Canterbury, while very nice in the centre, has a lot of issues with crime, drugs and antisocial behaviour. Then there are places along the estuary and the north end of the Medway that are just downright evil.
There is no question that Southeasterns mainline work is far more desirable.
If the metro work transfers to TFL that will make transferring internally to these locations impossible anyway.
Not much more so than SE metro. At NXG you have ELL core to Clapham and West Croydon. On SE the only variety you have is whether you are going into Vic or through London Bridge. If you are really lucky you might get a Blackfriars job. Ok you've got 3 routes out to Dartford and Gravesend and the delights of Hayes but its still intensive metro at both places.
Say what you like about metro though, you see a lot more life working metro trains. It's not all bad.
Very true Rochester aside Medway is depressing
Most of the journey from woolwich to rainham has a bleakness about it full of places you'd be brave to wonder around in.
Wasn't aware of the problems in Canterbury. I grew up in Chichester so assumed it might be similar being another Cathedral city
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