Northern 180?

Oggworth · 20 Aug 2019

According to Wikipedia (the oracle of truth, I know), Northern have leased a single class 180 unit from Grand Central for use between Hebden Bridge and Leeds (on diagrams 1S98 and 1S99). Is / was this the case? I know Northern had a few units until around 2011, but this is the first I've heard of a 180 since then.

Anyone have further info? Was this a short-term thing? Is it still going? Any pictures?

Link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_180#Northern

Cheers!

RailUK Forums

EM2 · 20 Aug 2019

It's not leased by Northern, but GC run that service for Northern.

Neptune · 20 Aug 2019

Northern hire in the train and crew. Only runs an AM turn now. The PM turn is now a northern unit and crew since May 2018.

swt_passenger · 20 Aug 2019

The wiki exaggeration will be where the author wrote “leased a unit”. It’s not really that unusual for a TOC to run the odd service on behalf of another if it fits the bigger picture, especially if it can be done in marginal time (when the unit isn’t on it’s normal service pattern). I suppose in this case being an Open access operator makes it slightly more unusual.

It’s more like sub-contracting the service.

Entertexthere · 20 Aug 2019

So potentially, this is the only Northern service with first class :smile:

Oggworth · 20 Aug 2019

Entertexthere said:
So potentially, this is the only Northern service with first class

Interesting stuff! Do you reckon that means it's declassified as Northern don't do first class tickets, or would normal rates apply as it's run on behalf of northern?

Oggworth · 20 Aug 2019

swt_passenger said:
The wiki exaggeration will be where the author wrote “leased a unit”. It’s not really that unusual for a TOC to run the odd service on behalf of another if it fits the bigger picture, especially if it can be done in marginal time (when the unit isn’t on it’s normal service pattern). I suppose in this case being an Open access operator makes it slightly more unusual.

It’s more like sub-contracting the service.

Ah, okay - thanks! I remember reading that stopping services are actually bad for the 180 and Northern Rail used to have to replace the brake pads every 3 days when they were running Manchester-Preston-Blackpool because of all the stops, I wonder how this unit's holding up...

Crossover · 20 Aug 2019

Oggworth said:
Interesting stuff! Do you reckon that means it's declassified as Northern don't do first class tickets, or would normal rates apply as it's run on behalf of northern?

Don't quote me on it, but I believe it is declassified

Starmill · 20 Aug 2019

Oggworth said:
Interesting stuff! Do you reckon that means it's declassified as Northern don't do first class tickets, or would normal rates apply as it's run on behalf of northern?

At the time it was introduced it did offer First Class. It was not unique though - until May 2018 Northern offered First Class on some services to Blackpool North and Barrow-in-Furness.

National Rail Enquiries now says that only Standard Class is available on the morning service.

Llama · 20 Aug 2019

Oggworth said:
Ah, okay - thanks! I remember reading that stopping services are actually bad for the 180 and Northern Rail used to have to replace the brake pads every 3 days when they were running Manchester-Preston-Blackpool because of all the stops, I wonder how this unit's holding up...

Not sure it was as often as that, but the dynamic brake was isolated on the 180s Northern ran between 2008-12 so only the friction brake was in use and they were certainly stopping more frequently than they would've been on FGW, although from lower speeds. The only time they really stretched their legs was on the WCML south of Preston and then only up to 100mph as per Northern's safety case.

Lemmy99uk · 20 Aug 2019

Starmill said:
At the time it was introduced it did offer First Class. It was not unique though - until May 2018 Northern offered First Class on some services to Blackpool North and Barrow-in-Furness.

Northern NEVER offered First Class on the borrowed 185s. The services were standard class only.

I travelled on them regularly between Preston and Picc and always availed myself of the declasified area.

I did hear some tales of the former TPE Guards thinking that First was still available and removing standard ticket holders from the area, but that was only in the early days.

superkev · 20 Aug 2019

It was the only northern service with driver operated doors and hence had quicker station stops. I'm surprised the RMT allowed it.
K

Starmill · 20 Aug 2019

Lemmy99uk said:
Northern NEVER offered First Class on the borrowed 185s. The services were standard class only.

This is wrong - I travelled in it.

Lemmy99uk said:
I travelled on them regularly between Preston and Picc and always availed myself of the declasified area.

Some services were indeed declassified.

Starmill · 20 Aug 2019

superkev said:
It was the only northern service with driver operated doors and hence had quicker station stops. I'm surprised the RMT allowed it.
K

Weren't they modified specifically to allow the guard to open the doors?

Entertexthere · 20 Aug 2019

Starmill said:
At the time it was introduced it did offer First Class. It was not unique though - until May 2018 Northern offered First Class on some services to Blackpool North and Barrow-in-Furness.

National Rail Enquiries now says that only Standard Class is available on the morning service.

So did they lock the first class area out of use?

Shaw S Hunter · 20 Aug 2019

Starmill said:
Weren't they modified specifically to allow the guard to open the doors?

Absolutely correct. A guard's control panel was fitted to the brake van area at one end of each unit in use.

Llama · 21 Aug 2019

superkev said:
It was the only northern service with driver operated doors and hence had quicker station stops. I'm surprised the RMT allowed it.
K

The driver absolutely didn't do the doors on 180s.

Bertie the bus · 21 Aug 2019

The driver didn't do much at all on the evening service. It rarely ran. I tried to catch it several times and it was usually cancelled. When I asked a bloke at the customer service desk at Leeds if it ever runs he replied 'not very often'.

ainsworth74 · 21 Aug 2019

Starmill said:
At the time it was introduced it did offer First Class.

Did it? I did it a couple of times and sat in first class on a standard class ticket and there was no complaint or attempt to charge extra! I'm sure you were with me on one of the occasions!! :lol:

Starmill · 21 Aug 2019

ainsworth74 said:
Did it? I did it a couple of times and sat in first class on a standard class ticket and there was no complaint or attempt to charge extra! I'm sure you were with me on one of the occasions!!

When the morning service was introduced it only ran from Bradford to Leeds, with no return service. At that time, for a period of at least a few weeks, First Class was definitely shown as available in the timetable. I travelled on it in November 2016.

When we travelled was more than a year later, after the morning service had been changed to start back first from Halifax and then from then from Hebden Bridge, and the afternoon service introduced.

ainsworth74 · 21 Aug 2019

Starmill said:
When the morning service was introduced it only ran from Bradford to Leeds, with no return service. At that time, for a period of at least a few weeks, First Class was definitely shown as available in the timetable. I travelled on it in November 2016.

When we travelled was more than a year later, after the morning service had been changed to start back first from Halifax and then from then from Hebden Bridge, and the afternoon service introduced.

Ahhh gotcha!

Lemmy99uk · 22 Aug 2019

Starmill said:
This is wrong - I travelled in it.

You might well have travelled in it and you might well have been charged a first class fare, but I can assure you that Northern operated the service as standard class only.

Starmill · 23 Aug 2019

Lemmy99uk said:
You might well have travelled in it and you might well have been charged a first class fare, but I can assure you that Northern operated the service as standard class only.

Well you're wrong.

Lemmy99uk · 23 Aug 2019

Starmill said:
Well you're wrong.

Could you offer some evidence for that?

Tracked · 23 Aug 2019

Entertexthere said:
So potentially, this is the only Northern service with first class

I caught an ex-Scotrail 170 with 1st class last month

(and the 331's on DON-LDS feel like 1st class in comparison to the 321/322 and -usually late at night - Pacer's that have been on there)

Entertexthere · 23 Aug 2019

Tracked said:
I caught an ex-Scotrail 170 with 1st class last month

(and the 331's on DON-LDS feel like 1st class in comparison to the 321/322 and -usually late at night - Pacer's that have been on there)

Ah yes, I forgot about the declassified 170s

PomWombat · 1 Sep 2019

Entertexthere said:
Ah yes, I forgot about the declassified 170s

They're very tired compartments, but do give more space. The first of the 170s with declassified first class has now been through refurb .... but I've yet to see what they've done to the compartment in the refurb.

Entertexthere · 2 Sep 2019

PomWombat said:
They're very tired compartments, but do give more space. The first of the 170s with declassified first class has now been through refurb .... but I've yet to see what they've done to the compartment in the refurb.

From what I've seen, they've basically just made it like the rest of the coach

themiller · 4 Sep 2019

Starmill said:
Well you're wrong.

I’ve travelled a couple of times on the Barrow to Manchester Airport on 185s on Northern service and checked with the conductor who confirmed that the first class section was declassified.

Starmill · 4 Sep 2019

Lemmy99uk said:
Could you offer some evidence for that?

First Class was:
- Displayed in the timetable
- Signed in a specifically reserved area on the train
- Available to purchase by means of First Class tickets (including Advance tickets)

What other criteria could there actually be for the existence of First Class? The latter isn't even really a necessary criterion, although it does give the result, that there was indeed First Class, a good sense-check.

themiller said:
I’ve travelled a couple of times on the Barrow to Manchester Airport on 185s on Northern service and checked with the conductor who confirmed that the first class section was declassified.

First Class was declassified on all of these services after May 2018, and on some before that.

Northern 180?

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