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March 2019 Oyster Extensions Confirmed

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Starmill

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* Losers being those who currently get an off-peak day return that want to travel in the evening peak and those who travel at weekends. Oh, and those who want to break their journey.
Although, if these people can continue to use paper tickets to make their journey...
 
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Hadders

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GTR set the inter-available fare between St Pancras and Luton Airport Parkway so they're not allowed to introduce a permanent 'Thameslink' only fare.

Although, if these people can continue to use paper tickets to make their journey...

My concern is that people leisure travellers switch to contactless in the belief that it is cheaper. Weekend travellers who currently use a Network Railcard will lose out massively.

The TOC will then withdraw the paper tickets claiming no demand and simplification....
 

JonathanH

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The TOC will then withdraw the paper tickets claiming no demand and simplification....

Still possible that the DfT will do that anyway.
When are the DfT going to publish the outcome of their consultation on the extension of PAYG?
When are DfT going to agree on the recommendations of the RDG report on wholesale changes to the fare system?
 

Hadders

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Still possible that the DfT will do that anyway.

I'm not against paper tickets being withdrawn but what I am against is massive fares increases via the back door which is the likely outcome of all this.
 

matt_world2004

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Tru118 seeems to imply no oyster validity at all on some stations beyond zone 6

'We have since learned that the ticketing arrangements for stations at the western end of the elizabeth line have not been finalised and proposals may not include full zone 6 oyster availability as we are led to believe. We will provide more information on this once a final decision has been taken"

[,...] An updated version of a pay as you go map will be published at the end of August to coincide with the first two sextions of PAYG validity
 

Mojo

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Interesting dilema there - do you
* charge less for Contactless initially because it is restricted to certain operators then find you can't put the fare up when it is extended to the other operators, or;
* charge the standard fare in the first place expecting it to become available on all operators later.

I would say that the second is the safer strategy.
There is precedent for this to an extent; when London Overground started in November 2011 there was a large (at the time) expansion of stations and routes Oyster Pay As You Go became accepted on. Despite PAYG being valid on London Overground services between Euston and Watford Junction it was not valid on London Midland trains.

In the week following the launch of Overground there were reports of thousands of customers travelling on LM trains with Oyster despite it technically not being valid, but due to the mass of customers and the shared gatelines at both ends it was not possible to charge everyone, numerous negative news stories about the situation, and pressure from local & national politicians, LM accepted the assistance from TfL and relented just a week after the franchise change.
 

matt_world2004

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I am sure that the GwR franchise agreement requires it to accept Oyster to Reading. It talks about working with the Crossrail operator to ensure multi modal smart tickets that are accepted on its services are alsp accepted on GwR
 

infobleep

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There is precedent for this to an extent; when London Overground started in November 2011 there was a large (at the time) expansion of stations and routes Oyster Pay As You Go became accepted on. Despite PAYG being valid on London Overground services between Euston and Watford Junction it was not valid on London Midland trains.

In the week following the launch of Overground there were reports of thousands of customers travelling on LM trains with Oyster despite it technically not being valid, but due to the mass of customers and the shared gatelines at both ends it was not possible to charge everyone, numerous negative news stories about the situation, and pressure from local & national politicians, LM accepted the assistance from TfL and relented just a week after the franchise change.
Not surprised to hear stories of them not cooperating. I use to regularly catch London Midland trains from Harrow & Wealdstone, a station run by TfL. Communication between the two wasn't always the best shall we say.

Still possible that the DfT will do that anyway.
When are the DfT going to publish the outcome of their consultation on the extension of PAYG?
When are DfT going to agree on the recommendations of the RDG report on wholesale changes to the fare system?
Maybe they are too busy dealing with franchise competition issues, that they don't wish to publish it right now. Another cynical view might be that the results didn't match their ideas, so they are figuring out how to make the report fit what they want to do. Not that I'm cynical or anythjng.
 

MarlowDonkey

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I am sure that the GwR franchise agreement requires it to accept Oyster to Reading.

I believe GWR will continue to operate semi fast services, for which the stopping pattern appears to be Ealing, Hayes, Slough, Maidenhead, Twyford, Reading. I don't see how users of Oyster and contactless can be prevented from using these services.

There's also the question as to what ticket arrangements those travelling to and from the Windsor, Marlow and Henley branches are expected to have.
 

matt_world2004

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I believe GWR will continue to operate semi fast services, for which the stopping pattern appears to be Ealing, Hayes, Slough, Maidenhead, Twyford, Reading. I don't see how users of Oyster and contactless can be prevented from using these services.

There's also the question as to what ticket arrangements those travelling to and from the Windsor, Marlow and Henley branches are expected to have.
The TfL revenue bulletin issued above seems to indicate that oyster may not be valid at apl beyond west Drayton(Including on TfL Rail)Or if it is valid, not valid for the whole route. That seems like a major inconsistency given how other tfl services are run.

I suspect they havent got the equipment at all the stations to validate oyster cards. Or if they have the equipment its not set up Properly. Thats a huge oversightn
 

hkstudent

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GTR set the inter-available fare between St Pancras and Luton Airport Parkway so they're not allowed to introduce a permanent 'Thameslink' only fare.



My concern is that people leisure travellers switch to contactless in the belief that it is cheaper. Weekend travellers who currently use a Network Railcard will lose out massively.

The TOC will then withdraw the paper tickets claiming no demand and simplification....
I doubt DfT can withdraw paper ticket no matter how low the demand it is. Not everyone will be having a contactless card, especially for foreign visitors. (The SE PAYG consultation also mentioned the unlikeliness of withdrawing paper tickets)
Even for Netherlands, the country with the most sophisticated smartcard PAYG / Season Ticket system, they still have to sell paper tickets and mobile tickets.
 
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Railguy1

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I doubt DfT can withdraw paper ticket no matter how low the demand it is. Not everyone will be having a contactless card, especially for foreign visitors. (The SE PAYG consultation also mentioned the unlikeliness of withdrawing paper tickets)
Even for Netherlands, the country with the most sophisticated smartcard charging system, they still have to sell paper tickets and mobile tickets.

Paper tickets were removed from London buses. Tourists are simply expected to buy a travel oyster card. Not sure if "Oyster" counts as a "paper ticket" or not though?
 

Deerfold

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Paper tickets were removed from London buses. Tourists are simply expected to buy a travel oyster card. Not sure if "Oyster" counts as a "paper ticket" or not though?

You can still buy a paper bus day ticket at Oyster shops and underground stations.
 
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Paper tickets were removed from London buses. Tourists are simply expected to buy a travel oyster card.

Or pay with a bank card, I wonder what the relative stats are? Also, paper tickets were effectively removed from National Rail throughout London, for off-peak purposes. Only the anytime fares remain available on paper for journeys within the zones.
 

Hadders

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I doubt DfT can withdraw paper ticket no matter how low the demand it is. Not everyone will be having a contactless card, especially for foreign visitors. (The SE PAYG consultation also mentioned the unlikeliness of withdrawing paper tickets)
Even for Netherlands, the country with the most sophisticated smartcard PAYG / Season Ticket system, they still have to sell paper tickets and mobile tickets.

They’ll withdraw all the paper tickets other than Anytime ones. That’s what they did in London.

Goodbye Super Off Peak tickets and Network Railcard discounts....
 

MarlowDonkey

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The TfL revenue bulletin issued above seems to indicate that oyster may not be valid at apl beyond west Drayton(Including on TfL Rail)Or if it is valid, not valid for the whole route. That seems like a major inconsistency given how other tfl services are run.

Impractical too, once there are through trains from the central core running beyond West Drayton. How are passengers expected to end their Oyster/cardless journey and where or how would they be expected to purchase the ticket for travel beyond West Drayton?
 

jon0844

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It also implies extension to Potters Bar and Radlett was due to have happened today.

29th. Potters Bar for Oyster and Brookmans Park for contactless. Stations further north done by end of November.
 

matt_world2004

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Speculatively, I think Oyster will be expanded to stations on the GWML where TfL will become the fare setter into London Paddington so that I believe will be

Iver
Langley
Burnham
Taplow.

They will want to avoid islands where Oyster is no longer valid(Like Slough) So I would take a guess that only Iver and Langley will get oyster acceptance in December.
 

transmanche

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You can still buy a paper bus day ticket at Oyster shops and underground stations.
Although I believe the version sold at Oyster Ticket Stops is just a (cardboard) disposable Oyster card these days.

daily-bus-590x356.jpg
 

matt_world2004

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Although I believe the version sold at Oyster Ticket Stops is just a (cardboard) disposable Oyster card these days.

daily-bus-590x356.jpg
This is correct paper bus paases and zonal travelcards however are still retailed through tourist sites. The TfL services only travelcard. Which is part of the rip off the tourist market is also only on paper
 

drspa44

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I went to Brookman's Park yesterday and found this installed and ready to be used. There was another Oyster pedestal that had a '90' sticker on it (I am sure they are not offically called pedestals). Both say 'Validate card for entry or exit', but I didn't try using it as there were no trains. I didn't see any notices about Osyter or contactless, other than the now-out-of-date maps which say the Oyster validity zone ends at Hadley Wood.

Potter's Bar had Oyster readers on the gatelines and TVMs that let you check your Oyster balance.
Pv02c8K.jpg



People are posting on the fares they were charged at Potters Bar recently here: https://www.oyster-rail.org.uk/2019/07/new-northern-extensions/

And apprently there is a sign saying Oyster will be launched on Thursday 29 August.

Also, some vague reports about the rollout at Radlett: https://www.mynewsmag.co.uk/oyster-joy-radlett-station-is-finally-ready/
Essentially it says the stations are ready for Oyster and the MP is looking forward to the official launch, whenever that may be. Also he says, 'Passengers who purchase a Radlett to London Underground Zones 1-2 return ticket will save £4.80 by using their Oyster or contactless card instead'.
 

Surreytraveller

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Paper tickets were removed from London buses. Tourists are simply expected to buy a travel oyster card. Not sure if "Oyster" counts as a "paper ticket" or not though?
Yes, and children travel free. If you wanted to do away with paper tickets on the railway, you'd have to do away with child fares.
 

MikeWh

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Yes, and children travel free. If you wanted to do away with paper tickets on the railway, you'd have to do away with child fares.
Absolute rubbish. Oyster successfully has several different levels of 'child' fares depending on which Oyster card is held.
 

Hadders

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I hope the local MP will also warn passengers travelling at weekends that they face large increases in fares with Oyster/Contactless.

Due to the closure of the ECML this weekend I travelled into London from Hertford East. This gave me the opportunity to investigate fares where paper and Oyster/Contactless are available.

Off Peak from Hertford East to Liverpool Street on Oyster/Contactless is £5.90 do £11.80 for a return.
But a Super Off Peak Day Return from Hertford Stations to London Terminals is £9.10

Say I want to go to Oxford Circus then a journey from Hertford East using Oyster/Contactless is £8.60 so £17.20 for a return. The daily cap is £18.80
But a Super Off Peak Day Travelcard from Hertford Stations to London Zones 1-6 is £14.60

The issue is far more pronounced for users of Network Railcards, Two Together and Friends & Family Railcards. These can be used to obtain a discount on paper tickets but cannot be added to Oyster/Contactless.

So someone using a Network Railcard to make a return journey from Hertford East to Liverpool Street at the weekend currently pays £6.00 for a railcard discounted paper ticket
With Oyster/Contactless they pay £11.80. Almost double the fare.

A railcard discounted Weekend Super Off Peak Travelcard from Hertford Stations to London Zones 1-6 is £9.65 with railcard discount
A journey from Hertford East plus one journey into Zone 1 is £17.20, with the daily cap being £18.80. Again, using Oyster/Contactless will cost almost double.

We are constantly told that Oyster and contactless is cheaper but this isn't the case, especially outside the Greater London Boundary. My casual observations at Hertford East on both Saturday and Sunday afternoons revealed that most passengers were tapping in with Oyster or contactless rather than using cheaper paper tickets.

There really should be publicity advising passengers about this. We're not talking about a few pennies or a couple of pounds, we're talking about a doubling of fares for many passengers.

I keep saying this but how long will it be before TOCs aided and abetted by the DfT (who we know have no expertise on fares) withdraw paper tickets under the guise of 'simplification' because 'it's what passengers want'. I can bet they won't be citing a doubling of fares for weekend fares yet this is what is happening.....
 

Surreytraveller

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Absolute rubbish. Oyster successfully has several different levels of 'child' fares depending on which Oyster card is held.
Yes, in London where it is accepted on everything, and is easily obtainable. Outside London it is a different matter. Paper tickets are still obtainable and valid in London. The post I quoted mentioned about buses not accepting paper tickets, and the same applying to the railway. In order to do away with buses doing away with paper tickets, they've had to do away with child fares. You can no longer obtain a child fare to travel on a London bus, unless you know differently?
 

Deerfold

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Yes, in London where it is accepted on everything, and is easily obtainable. Outside London it is a different matter. Paper tickets are still obtainable and valid in London. The post I quoted mentioned about buses not accepting paper tickets, and the same applying to the railway. In order to do away with buses doing away with paper tickets, they've had to do away with child fares. You can no longer obtain a child fare to travel on a London bus, unless you know differently?

11-15 and 16-17 Oyster Zip cards get you child fare on a London bus, single fare or season. Under 11s travel free. Children can also travel on child rate travelcards.
 

Surreytraveller

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11-15 and 16-17 Oyster Zip cards get you child fare on a London bus, single fare or season. Under 11s travel free. Children can also travel on child rate travelcards.
Aren't 11-15s free on London Buses? Don't know about 16/17s. Obviously you get child rate seasons, but as for single tickets you cannot get a child rate single on a London bus.
 
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