Northern 323s refurbishment and cascade

td97 · 19 Aug 2019

The Preston - Victoria stopper is currently 2 diagrams for 1tph, with tight turnarounds at each end. To clarify, I meant maintaining 1tph but including more stops and longer turnarounds. Especially since the turnaround siding east of Victoria is now electrified, it wouldn't be blocking P6 for 45 minutes.

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DC2001 · 19 Aug 2019

Xenophon PCDGS said:
"All stops" by its understood meaning would therefore have to include Clifton.

I had forgot about Clifton!

td97 said:
The Preston - Victoria stopper is currently 2 diagrams for 1tph, with tight turnarounds at each end. To clarify, I meant maintaining 1tph but including more stops and longer turnarounds. Especially since the turnaround siding east of Victoria is now electrified, it wouldn't be blocking P6 for 45 minutes.

I don't think that passengers at Blackrod and Adlington would be very happy at having more stops added if they didn't get an extra service every hour though. If Northern had enough staff three extra diagrams could probably be added without significant alterations to current services; the 'extra' could be sent from Preston just behind the TPE to Manchester Airport and a return could be sent so it is somewhere between the Northern service from Hazel Grove and the service from Manchester Airport along the Chorley line.

Mollman · 19 Aug 2019

Roast Veg said:
What's the status of 6 car working east of the Pennines? Could we see doubled up 333/0s over there as opposed to single 331/1s with the influx of all these units?

Presume you mean 331/0s rather than 333/0s. I thing the issue is that 6 car working is not possible until platform lengthening work is completed.

agbrs_Jack · 20 Aug 2019

js1000 said:
If needs be they could just be operated with ASDO with the rear carriage out of use (assuming all stations can have a minimum 120m length platform) if it was too expensive or not possible to extend certain platforms.

6 carriage 323 is approximately 141 metres.
Kidsgrove Up = 138m

Northern ran alcohol free dry trains as double 323s on the last Manchester - Stoke services on Saturdays in December 2017. These presumably would've called at Kidsgrove.

CHAPS2034 · 20 Aug 2019

jonesy3001 said:
Rail magazine are also running the story about the 323s.

https://t.co/u2FBnRB2mu?amp=1

which says

Northern is to retain its 17 three-car Class 323s (323223-323239), as well as receiving 17 of West Midlands Trains’ 26-strong ‘323’ fleet.

So which is it then - 17 or all 26?

LOL The Irony · 20 Aug 2019

CHAPS2034 said:
which says

So which is it then - 17 or all 26?

I think someone may have got it a bit wrong - This is rail magazine after all

DC2001 · 20 Aug 2019

CHAPS2034 said:
which says

So which is it then - 17 or all 26?

I would hope it would be 26 to allow some doubling up!

Bovverboy · 20 Aug 2019

CHAPS2034 said:
So which is it then - 17 or all 26?

DC2001 said:
I would hope it would be 26 to allow some doubling up!

Whichever figure is correct it still represents an increase in total capacity compared to the EMU stock in use now. Whether that capacity increase filters through to the travelling public remains to be seen.
And don't forget, the ex-WM 323s aren't going to be coming to Northern anytime soon.

DC2001 · 21 Aug 2019

Bovverboy said:
Whichever figure is correct it still represents an increase in total capacity compared to the EMU stock in use now. Whether that capacity increase filters through to the travelling public remains to be seen.
And don't forget, the ex-WM 323s aren't going to be coming to Northern anytime soon.

Does anyone know if the Northern 323s have a dedicated bike section?

Llama · 21 Aug 2019

td97 said:
The Preston - Victoria stopper is currently 2 diagrams for 1tph, with tight turnarounds at each end. To clarify, I meant maintaining 1tph but including more stops and longer turnarounds. Especially since the turnaround siding east of Victoria is now electrified, it wouldn't be blocking P6 for 45 minutes.

There isn't a turnaround siding at the east end of Victoria, the line is electrified up to Bromley Street Jn but there is no useful move eastwards that wouldn't still cause conflict with other movements to/from Victoria.

323235 · 21 Aug 2019

DC2001 said:
Does anyone know if the Northern 323s have a dedicated bike section?

Yes there's two areas with tipup seats in the middle carriage, which are used for bicycles and also intended for buggies - one side is a priority wheelchair area.

Usually on the Stoke line (and last time I travelled) in the morning peak you get upto 10 bicycles stacked up together at the same time.

43096 · 21 Aug 2019

LOL The Irony said:
I think someone may have got it a bit wrong - This is rail magazine after all

Quite. Modern Railways says Northern are taking all 43 (i.e. 17+26). I know which I would believe.

DC2001 · 21 Aug 2019

323235 said:
Yes there's two areas with tipup seats in the middle carriage, which are used for bicycles and also intended for buggies - one side is a priority wheelchair area.

Usually on the Stoke line (and last time I travelled) in the morning peak you get upto 10 bicycles stacked up together at the same time.

That's good to hear, is it by any chance signed as the bike storage?

py_megapixel · 21 Aug 2019

Since the refurbishment will probably have to involve PRM mods, does anyone know what PIS is being fitted? I've heard that WMR are getting the LCD screens which are also being fitted to 158s. These convey no more information than a simple scrolling LED matrix and feel rather poorly thought out.

The best solution IMO would be retrofitting the same screens seen in the 195s (if possible)
Failing that, a decent high-res dot matrix as seen on most Bombardier stock built less than 10 years ago (S-stock/Manchester Metrolink/newer Electrostars)

jonesy3001 · 21 Aug 2019

CHAPS2034 said:
which says

So which is it then - 17 or all 26?

better description in modern railways;

https://modern-railways.keypublishi...SHOnZJG0lG0vvgngaQN9oh_T3lDspXI09joMqbG-MpBPQ

Bovverboy · 21 Aug 2019

LOL The Irony said:
I think someone may have got it a bit wrong - This is rail magazine after all

'Rail' contains lots of errors. I pointed one out to them a few months ago, but no correction appeared in print, and I didn't get an acknowledgement by return e-mail.

CHAPS2034 · 21 Aug 2019

Thanks for the replies.

Knowing the reputation of Rail magazine, I'm not surprised they have probably got it wrong..

It will be great to have all the 323s up here as I have grown quite fond of them on my local services - apart from when they disgraced themselves just after they were introduced when they took a dislike to frost on the wires. Nippy, reliable and comfortable.

driver_m · 21 Aug 2019

I would take anything Rail have to say with a massive pinch of salt, their current thing seems to be a Arriva defence campaign after what seems to be constant digs against Andy Burnham online (Mayor of Greater Manchester) by the likes of Clinnick and Harris because he wants them gone. Sure, he doesn’t know the full goings on and has give TPE an easy ride in comparison, but Northern Rail have been absolutely awful, and no cheerleading by RAIL can change that. Plus, it is his job to change something he doesn’t agree with, i’d expect nothing less from a politician. They wanted him to go and say well done to Northern just because they’ve binned off a few pacers. Why on earth would he want to go along with that when he’d then get called by them for then being an opportunist?!

61653 HTAFC · 21 Aug 2019

driver_m said:
I would take anything Rail have to say with a massive pinch of salt, their current thing seems to be a Arriva defence campaign after what seems to be constant digs against Andy Burnham online (Mayor of Greater Manchester) by the likes of Clinnick and Harris because he wants them gone. Sure, he doesn’t know the full goings on and has give TPE an easy ride in comparison, but Northern Rail have been absolutely awful, and no cheerleading by RAIL can change that. Plus, it is his job to change something he doesn’t agree with, i’d expect nothing less from a politician. They wanted him to go and say well done to Northern just because they’ve binned off a few pacers. Why on earth would he want to go along with that when he’d then get called by them for then being an opportunist?!

LIAR. the Grauniad of the railway press.

NoMorePacers · 21 Aug 2019

61653 HTAFC said:
LIAR. the Grauniad of the railway press.

Do you mean The Scum of the railway press?

43096 · 21 Aug 2019

61653 HTAFC said:
LIAR. the Grauniad of the railway press.

No, more like the Mail. Big sensationalist headlines and absolutely nothing of substance underneath it.

anamyd · 21 Aug 2019

Not trying to moderate but there is a thread called "opinions on quality of journalism in RAIL magazine", just to let people know

driver_m · 21 Aug 2019

anamyd said:
Not trying to moderate but there is a thread called "opinions on quality of journalism in RAIL magazine", just to let people know

Fair call. Suppose it should get back to 323s. With a 323 already been PRM’d will it just take the usual couple of weeks or a bit longer whilst it’s Northerns first one to be done?

northernchris · 21 Aug 2019

td97 said:
The Preston - Victoria stopper is currently 2 diagrams for 1tph, with tight turnarounds at each end. To clarify, I meant maintaining 1tph but including more stops and longer turnarounds. Especially since the turnaround siding east of Victoria is now electrified, it wouldn't be blocking P6 for 45 minutes.

Could running a Victoria - Bolton work interlinking with the Preston - Victoria? It would still give Kearsley, Farnworth and Moses Gate 2 trains per hour using the additional 323s once received

Xenophon PCDGS · 21 Aug 2019

northernchris said:
Could running a Victoria - Bolton work interlinking with the Preston - Victoria? It would still give Kearsley, Farnworth and Moses Gate 2 trains per hour using the additional 323s once received

Thinking of the existing use made of the line from Salford Crescent to Bolton, would any of these extra proposed station stops referred to above have any detrimental affect on the timetabling of all services using that stretch of line. I must confess that every train that I have used in recent times on that line section has been non-stop.

northernchris · 21 Aug 2019

Xenophon PCDGS said:
Thinking of the existing use made of the line from Salford Crescent to Bolton, would any of these extra proposed station stops referred to above have any detrimental affect on the timetabling of all services using that stretch of line. I must confess that every train that I have used in recent times on that line section has been non-stop.

Potentially, looking at the timetable there's a gap of around 12 minutes in each direction but would give an uneven frequency at the intermediate stops

ainsworth74 · 21 Aug 2019

anamyd said:
Not trying to moderate but there is a thread called "opinions on quality of journalism in RAIL magazine", just to let people know

Yes quite. Anyone else wishing to comment on RAIL please use the existing thread which can be found here. Otherwise lets get back to 323s please.

_toommm_ · 21 Aug 2019

As soon as it gets released to the public, I should end up seeing it in service within the week - most of my commute is on 323s so I'm well versed in them

I'll try and post photos as soon as it gets released to the general public.

AMD · 22 Aug 2019

driver_m said:
With a 323 already been PRM’d will it just take the usual couple of weeks or a bit longer whilst it’s Northerns first one to be done?

It should be a matter of weeks, with the caveat that it's the first Northern one, as you note. From September they'll be going into Wolverton two at a time and it's going to be pretty rapid as the programme wraps up in May next year.

prod_pep · 22 Aug 2019

On Twitter, Richard Clinnick of Rail magazine has insisted that only 17 of the 26 West Midlands 323s are due for Northern, at least for now. He claims that Northern "would like" all 26.

I can't see any reason for all 26 to not go to Northern, other than a lack of available work for them. Surely Porterbrook would rather have the future of the entire class secured?

Northern 323s refurbishment and cascade

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