New trains - could they have tinted windows?

Ash Bridge · 20 Aug 2019

hexagon789 said:
Forgot about the Manchester Pullman, I was more thinking about the introduction of the Mk2Ds gave equal air-con rights in the early 1970s on the ECML and the introduction of the HSTs in the late 1970s gave equal rights for speed to first and second class.

Ah...understood. I can get a bit carried away with the detail sometimes, my apologies

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hexagon789 · 20 Aug 2019

Ash Bridge said:
Ah...understood. I can get a bit carried away with the detail sometimes, my apologies

No problem at all, it does mean that for a period the WCML wasn't quite so democratic as the ECML!

Ash Bridge · 20 Aug 2019

hexagon789 said:
No problem at all, it does mean that for a period the WCML wasn't quite so democratic as the ECML!

Thinking about it, yes I suppose it was. Certainly for a couple of years or so...

D6975 · 20 Aug 2019

Wasn't the Liverpool Pullman rake the same as a Manchester Pullman rake?

Ash Bridge · 20 Aug 2019

D6975 said:
Wasn't the Liverpool Pullman rake the same as a Manchester Pullman rake?

It was, but I seem to recall it also included several mk2 2nd class vehicles in the formation during a period of its operation, can't think exactly when though.

hexagon789 · 20 Aug 2019

D6975 said:
Wasn't the Liverpool Pullman rake the same as a Manchester Pullman rake?

The Manchester Pullman was 8 coaches all Pullman; the Liverpool was 4 Pullmans and 4 ordinary seconds.

trainophile said:
In case anyone is wondering, the train in question yesterday was a TfW 2-coach 175. Several of the windows are misted where the double glazing has failed, which may enhance the glare effect? The window causing me a problem was okay though, just dirty as usual.

I must acquire one of those folding black panel things with a suction cup that I think are meant for shielding babies in the back of cars, although I probably wouldn’t be allowed to use it!

Could try it, maybe have a pair of sunglasses as a back up though.

170s are quite bad for misted glazing, I wonder if it's the modern glazing units don't have enough ventilation to get rid of the condensation.

edwin_m · 20 Aug 2019

hexagon789 said:
170s are quite bad for misted glazing, I wonder if it's the modern glazing units don't have enough ventilation to get rid of the condensation.

Double glazing units are supposed to be sealed. If the seal goes then water vapour gets in and condenses out. In the extreme there can be several inches of water in the bottom of the pane, that sloshes around as the train accelerates and brakes.

I don't think this is a new thing - I seem to recall Alan Williams complaining about it in 455s way back in the 80s. However 170s and all but the final batches of Electrostar have ribbon glazing that is glued in, and I believe replacing a pane is much harder on these than on older and newer designs.

hexagon789 · 20 Aug 2019

edwin_m said:
Double glazing units are supposed to be sealed. If the seal goes then water vapour gets in and condenses out. In the extreme there can be several inches of water in the bottom of the pane, that sloshes around as the train accelerates and brakes.

I don't think this is a new thing - I seem to recall Alan Williams complaining about it in 455s way back in the 80s. However 170s and all but the final batches of Electrostar have ribbon glazing that is glued in, and I believe replacing a pane is much harder on these than on older and newer designs.

I've only ever noticed it on 158s and 170s myself, I don't know if the opening windows make 156s less susceptible.

Ash Bridge · 20 Aug 2019

hexagon789 said:
I've only ever noticed it on 158s and 170s myself, I don't know if the opening windows make 156s less susceptible.

Wouldn't have thought so as they too are double glazed sealed units, can't be certain about the opening toplights but should think they are also.

hexagon789 · 20 Aug 2019

Ash Bridge said:
Wouldn't have thought so as they too are double glazed sealed units, can't be certain about the opening toplights but should think they are also.

It was the only significant difference I could think of.

43096 · 20 Aug 2019

Ash Bridge said:
It was, but I seem to recall it also included several mk2 2nd class vehicles in the formation during a period of its operation, can't think exactly when though.

They would have had to be vacuum braked, though, which rules out anything Mark 2A or later.

hexagon789 · 20 Aug 2019

43096 said:
They would have had to be vacuum braked, though, which rules out anything Mark 2A or later.

Late 1960s/early 1970s pictures show 4 Pullmans, 2×Mk2z TSO, Mk1 RMB, Mk2z BSO.

Ash Bridge · 20 Aug 2019

43096 said:
They would have had to be vacuum braked, though, which rules out anything Mark 2A or later.

Indeed, and I believe another non standard feature of the mk2 Pullmans if I'm not mistaken was the power requirements (800-1000V at 50Hz AC) for the air conditioning systems, until they were refurbished and modified during the early 80s.

hexagon789 said:
Late 1960s/early 1970s pictures show 4 Pullmans, 2×Mk2z TSO, Mk1 RMB, Mk2z BSO.

I too searched for a shot of the Liverpool Pullman but to no avail.

43096 · 20 Aug 2019

Ash Bridge said:
Indeed, and I believe another non standard feature of the mk2 Pullmans if I'm not mistaken was the power requirements (800-1000V at 50Hz AC) for the air conditioning systems, until they were refurbished and modified during the early 80s.

All of which essentially restricted them to haulage by Classes 81-86.

hexagon789 · 20 Aug 2019

Ash Bridge said:
Indeed, and I believe another non standard feature of the mk2 Pullmans if I'm not mistaken was the power requirements (800-1000V at 50Hz AC) for the air conditioning systems, until they were refurbished and modified during the early 80s.

There was something non-standard about the ETH which meant only available electrics could haul them. Possibly a similar reason as to why only certain Mk2D and no Mk2E could be hauled by 55s and 47401-20.

Ash Bridge said:
I too searched for a shot of the Liverpool Pullman but to no avail.

Could look up the booked formation in the carriage workings.

Ash Bridge · 20 Aug 2019

hexagon789 said:
There was something non-standard about the ETH which meant only available electrics could haul them. Possibly a similar reason as to why only certain Mk2D and no Mk2E could be hauled by 55s and 47401-20..

I believe the majority of mk2ds were fitted with aircon equipment manufactured by Stone Platt Ltd. On the later mk2e/f stock they switched to Temperature Ltd equipment, and this was also fitted to some 2d stock, possibly some of the last batch built? I don't know but perhaps the ETH index was higher on the later Temperature Ltd equipped vehicles? And of course the first 20 Brush 47s were fitted with a rather non standard ETH set up as were the Deltics, both types being incapable of supplying a reliable and steady ETH voltage compared to a later production series 47, 50 or AC electric etc.

edwin_m · 21 Aug 2019

Wasn't it something to do with the 55s and 47401-20 supplying DC power and the aircon in question needing AC?

hexagon789 · 21 Aug 2019

Ash Bridge said:
I believe the majority of mk2ds were fitted with aircon equipment manufactured by Stone Platt Ltd. On the later mk2e/f stock they switched to Temperature Ltd equipment, and this was also fitted to some 2d stock, possibly some of the last batch built? I don't know but perhaps the ETH index was higher on the later Temperature Ltd equipped vehicles? And of course the first 20 Brush 47s were fitted with a rather non standard ETH set up as were the Deltics, both types being incapable of supplying a reliable and steady ETH voltage compared to a later production series 47, 50 or AC electric etc.

edwin_m said:
Wasn't it something to do with the 55s and 47401-20 supplying DC power and the aircon in question needing AC?

It was to do with the fact that on 55s and 47401-420 the ETH was supplied straight from the main generator and the voltage would fluctuate when power was increased/decreased.

On the Mk2D thus would cause coaches without specially modified motor alternator sets to trip out when the voltage went below 800V.

Ash Bridge · 21 Aug 2019

edwin_m said:
Wasn't it something to do with the 55s and 47401-20 supplying DC power and the aircon in question needing AC?

hexagon789 said:
It was to do with the fact that on 55s and 47401-420 the ETH was supplied straight from the main generator and the voltage would fluctuate when power was increased/decreased.

On the Mk2D thus would cause coaches without specially modified motor alternator sets to trip out when the voltage went below 800V.

That’s as I’ve read and understood, but also as edwin_m mentions was there also a requirement for the ETH supply to be converted to AC somewhere as I thought the standard ETH was 800-1000V DC provided from the loco? Obviously the class 81-86s must have been able to supply 1000VAC for the mk2 Pullman stock back in the day but a class 47 or similar could not? or could I perhaps be getting things a bit wrong here?

DY444 · 16 Nov 2019

Ash Bridge said:
I believe the majority of mk2ds were fitted with aircon equipment manufactured by Stone Platt Ltd. On the later mk2e/f stock they switched to Temperature Ltd equipment, and this was also fitted to some 2d stock, possibly some of the last batch built? I don't know but perhaps the ETH index was higher on the later Temperature Ltd equipped vehicles? And of course the first 20 Brush 47s were fitted with a rather non standard ETH set up as were the Deltics, both types being incapable of supplying a reliable and steady ETH voltage compared to a later production series 47, 50 or AC electric etc.

edwin_m said:
Wasn't it something to do with the 55s and 47401-20 supplying DC power and the aircon in question needing AC?

hexagon789 said:
It was to do with the fact that on 55s and 47401-420 the ETH was supplied straight from the main generator and the voltage would fluctuate when power was increased/decreased.

On the Mk2D thus would cause coaches without specially modified motor alternator sets to trip out when the voltage went below 800V.

Bit late to this but:
Deltics. As correctly stated above the ETH came from the main generator and the voltage used to fluctuate which caused the MA trips.
47401-420. ETH came from a DC auxiliary generator (not the main generator) and the supply voltage would drop too low at low engine revs which again caused MA trips.
WCML Mk2 Pullmans. These required an AC ETH supply which was only available from the AC electric locomotives (all BR diesels with ETH provided a DC supply). AC was required because each coach had a transformer across the incoming supply to provide a nominal 240V AC for some of the onboard equipment. If a diesel ETH supply were to be used then a very high current would flow because of the low resistance of the transformer to DC and if you were lucky then the coach supply fuses would blow or the locomotive eth circuit would trip. If you were unlucky the coach transformers would fail in a very smoky molten mess.

hexagon789 · 18 Nov 2019

DY444 said:
Bit late to this but:
Deltics. As correctly stated above the ETH came from the main generator and the voltage used to fluctuate which caused the MA trips.
47401-420. ETH came from a DC auxiliary generator (not the main generator) and the supply voltage would drop too low at low engine revs which again caused MA trips.
WCML Mk2 Pullmans. These required an AC ETH supply which was only available from the AC electric locomotives (all BR diesels with ETH provided a DC supply). AC was required because each coach had a transformer across the incoming supply to provide a nominal 240V AC for some of the onboard equipment. If a diesel ETH supply were to be used then a very high current would flow because of the low resistance of the transformer to DC and if you were lucky then the coach supply fuses would blow or the locomotive eth circuit would trip. If you were unlucky the coach transformers would fail in a very smoky molten mess.

The issue was only with Mk2d until they were modified and certain Mk2e coaches. The Mk2f having improved motor alternators (which the Mk3s also utilised) gave no issues.

Indeed there are a few photos of Deltics hauling the prototype Mk3s and they also hauled Scottish Region Mk3s to Oban a few times.

New trains - could they have tinted windows?

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