Cardiff Central - Milford Haven and connections questions regarding timetabling?

Peregrine 4903 · 18 Aug 2019

Recently I went on holiday by train from London Paddington to Milford Haven and return and really enjoyed the journey but noticed some things about the timetabling regarding services running from Cardiff west that doesn't really seem to make much sense. Also this if my first post so sorry if I am posting this in the wrong place.

When booking the train tickets I wanted to catch one of the xx45 trains out of Paddington to Swansea and change there for Milford Haven but then realised the train connections are timed so that you have to change at Cardiff Central unless you want your journey to be 30 minutes longer to a journey that is already over 5 hours long. This is a little annoying as it means less time spent on the ieps and more time on the 175's.

However after going on the the 175 from Cardiff Central to Milford Haven catching the 13:43 from Cardiff Central to Milford Haven and the 11:10 return both on a Friday from Milford Haven back to Cardiff Central I can say that a 2 coach 175 is not adequate for the service and the service suffers from severe overcrowding particularly between Cardiff and Swansea but is full in terms of seats until Haverfordwest.

I noticed on realtime trains that 6 minutes after the Milford Haven train there is the 13:49 to Swansea. What I wonder is to try and reduce overcrowding could the 13:43 to Milford Haven come after the 13:49 to Swansea meaning passengers travelling from London wishing to change to Milford Haven change at Swansea instead of Cardiff Central reducing overcrowding on the 2 coach 175 without the train needing to be longer and vice versa on the way back. Also local people travelling from Cardiff to Swansea would take the 9 coach IEP instead of the 2 coach 175.

I understand this probably isn't feasible as the Milford Haven trains come from Manchester Picadilly where timetabling is tights, but it seems to make logical sense to me to do. On the way back because of the overcrowding and the train having to wait for passengers and passengers with bikes to get on at Neath, Port Talbot and Bridgend we nearly missed our connections at Cardiff Central.

Sorry for this post being a bit long,and if I seem to have a lack of knowledge or posted it in the wrong place.

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PHILIPE · 18 Aug 2019

Peregrine 4903 said:
Recently I went on holiday by train from London Paddington to Milford Haven and return and really enjoyed the journey but noticed some things about the timetabling regarding services running from Cardiff west that doesn't really seem to make much sense. Also this if my first post so sorry if I am posting this in the wrong place.

When booking the train tickets I wanted to catch one of the xx45 trains out of Paddington to Swansea and change there for Milford Haven but then realised the train connections are timed so that you have to change at Cardiff Central unless you want your journey to be 30 minutes longer to a journey that is already over 5 hours long. This is a little annoying as it means less time spent on the ieps and more time on the 175's.

However after going on the the 175 from Cardiff Central to Milford Haven catching the 13:43 from Cardiff Central to Milford Haven and the 11:10 return both on a Friday from Milford Haven back to Cardiff Central I can say that a 2 coach 175 is not adequate for the service and the service suffers from severe overcrowding particularly between Cardiff and Swansea but is full in terms of seats until Haverfordwest.

I noticed on realtime trains that 6 minutes after the Milford Haven train there is the 13:49 to Swansea. What I wonder is to try and reduce overcrowding could the 13:43 to Milford Haven come after the 13:49 to Swansea meaning passengers travelling from London wishing to change to Milford Haven change at Swansea instead of Cardiff Central reducing overcrowding on the 2 coach 175 without the train needing to be longer and vice versa on the way back. Also local people travelling from Cardiff to Swansea would take the 9 coach IEP instead of the 2 coach 175.

I understand this probably isn't feasible as the Milford Haven trains come from Manchester Picadilly where timetabling is tights, but it seems to make logical sense to me to do. On the way back because of the overcrowding and the train having to wait for passengers and passengers with bikes to get on at Neath, Port Talbot and Bridgend we nearly missed our connections at Cardiff Central.

Sorry for this post being a bit long,and if I seem to have a lack of knowledge or posted it in the wrong place.

Welcome to the Forum. Journey Planner always gives you the first available connectional point you come to along the route even if it would be more convenient to spend any time elsewhere along the journey. The TFW services are formed by 2 or 3 Car 175s and the 2 Cars have been the subject of complaint in terms of capacity for years with nothing being able to be done due to the TOC being tied up in a franchise. However, more capacity is being promised in new trains but we will have to 3/4 years to reap the benefit of these.

30907 · 18 Aug 2019

A quick look at the provisional December timetable shows the westbound Carmarthen services following the Paddingtons from Cardiff. It doesn't work eastbound.

Peregrine 4903 · 18 Aug 2019

30907 said:
A quick look at the provisional December timetable shows the westbound Carmarthen services following the Paddingtons from Cardiff. It doesn't work eastbound.

Thankyou for saying that. I was wondering if this would be changed in the December timetabel change considering how GWR is massively changing its timetable.

Paul Kelly · 19 Aug 2019

PHILIPE said:
Journey Planner always gives you the first available connectional point you come to along the route even if it would be more convenient to spend any time elsewhere along the journey.

Which journey planner do you mean? They all have different algorithms for this. If the overall journey time is the same, some will change at the first opportunity, some at the last, and some will take into account other factors. In any case the OP explains why the change is at Cardiff; it's because it would be a longer journey otherwise, so all journey planners will give this result.

PHILIPE · 19 Aug 2019

Indigo2 said:
Which journey planner do you mean? They all have different algorithms for this. If the overall journey time is the same, some will change at the first opportunity, some at the last, and some will take into account other factors. In any case the OP explains why the change is at Cardiff; it's because it would be a longer journey otherwise, so all journey planners will give this result.

NRE Journey Planner

yorkie · 19 Aug 2019

PHILIPE said:
NRE Journey Planner

That's SilverRail's journey planner then; I think it's misleading to this as "Journey Planner" as if it's the only one!

PHILIPE said:
Journey Planner always gives you the first available connectional point you come to along the route...

This is an incorrect statement. I just did a search for Milford Haven to Paddington for a random date and time, and it came up with an itinerary changing at Newport (which is the last opportunity to change).

Paul Kelly · 19 Aug 2019

But yes, NRE/SilverRail does indeed always seem to change at the first opportunity when other parameters are equal. In my opinion this can lead to quite sub-optimal itineraries, e.g. Euston to Llanfairpwll leaving at 09:10 on a weekday is possible by remaining on the through Virgin Voyager until Bangor, followed by a short 5-minute journey on a local train, but NRE tells you to change over an hour earlier at Chester.

PHILIPE · 19 Aug 2019

yorkie said:
That's SilverRail's journey planner then; I think it's misleading to this as "Journey Planner" as if it's the only one!

This is an incorrect statement. I just did a search for Milford Haven to Paddington for a random date and time, and it came up with an itinerary changing at Newport (which is the last opportunity to change).

I've just done a random check in the opposite direction from Paddington to Milford Haven and Newport comes up. This, in practice, is unsuitable because the connection is a service from Manchester to Milford Haven via the Marches route, If there is late running along the Marches this service is frequently terminated at Cardiff Central and a fresh train started at Cardiff Right Time. In a case like this, the passenger could have continued to Cardiff or Swansea instead of being stranded at Newport and unnessessarily missed their connection. The ideal place to change in the Up direction would be Newport allowing passengers to get comfortably settled on a starting service.

Envoy · 19 Aug 2019

It is quite ridiculous that the 2 or 3 coach Manchester to west Wales trains leave Cardiff 9 minutes before the 9 or 10 coach GWR London to Swansea trains. So, what happens is that people who are going no further than Swansea tend to pile into the first train that comes along thus making it overcrowded. It is a pity that they don't have priority boarding at Cardiff onto the Transport for Wales train for people who are going west of Swansea. The ‘surplus’ passengers should be told to wait for the train from London if no seats are available. As far as I know, they don't even make announcements about this at Cardiff Central.

Peregrine 4903 · 19 Aug 2019

Envoy said:
It is quite ridiculous that the 2 or 3 coach Manchester to west Wales trains leave Cardiff 9 minutes before the 9 or 10 coach GWR London to Swansea trains. So, what happens is that people who are going no further than Swansea tend to pile into the first train that comes along thus making it overcrowded. It is a pity that they don't have priority boarding at Cardiff onto the Transport for Wales train for people who are going west of Swansea. The ‘surplus’ passengers should be told to wait for the train from London if no seats are available. As far as I know, they don't even make announcements about this at Cardiff Central.

I completely agree. I don't understand why it is done this way. Priority boarding for passengers travelling west of Swansea at Cardiff actually sounds like a really good idea. I don't know how feasible it is though unfortunately.

30907 · 20 Aug 2019

Peregrine 4903 said:
I completely agree. I don't understand why it is done this way. Priority boarding for passengers travelling west of Swansea at Cardiff actually sounds like a really good idea. I don't know how feasible it is though unfortunately.

TfW could price Advances higher than GW (unlikely); they could introduce an train-specific evening peak restriction; or they could recast the timetable as mentioned upthread.
Of course we will then get complaints about the extended journey time across Cardiff...

VT 390 · 20 Aug 2019

Envoy said:
It is quite ridiculous that the 2 or 3 coach Manchester to west Wales trains leave Cardiff 9 minutes before the 9 or 10 coach GWR London to Swansea trains. So, what happens is that people who are going no further than Swansea tend to pile into the first train that comes along thus making it overcrowded. It is a pity that they don't have priority boarding at Cardiff onto the Transport for Wales train for people who are going west of Swansea. The ‘surplus’ passengers should be told to wait for the train from London if no seats are available. As far as I know, they don't even make announcements about this at Cardiff Central.

Whilst the timetable could be better and they could make announcements at Cardiff as the GWR Swansea service is clearly shown on the departure boards at Cardiff, for passengers going no further than Swansea it is there choice to board the TFW train and (even though the TFW service should have more carriages) should not complain about the overcrowding as they have the option to wait few minutes to get a less busy train.

yorkie · 20 Aug 2019

VT 390 said:
..should not complain about the overcrowding as they have the option to wait few minutes to get a less busy train.

Is it made clear to passengers that the next train is less busy? In my experience passengers often have little knowledge of such matters and just get on the first available train.

VT 390 · 20 Aug 2019

yorkie said:
Is it made clear to passengers that the next train is less busy? In my experience passengers often have little knowledge of such matters and just get on the first available train.

This is a good point which I had not thought of, though they usually announce how many carriages each train has. I know this does not mean people will realise which service is quieter though.

Starmill · 20 Aug 2019

30907 said:
TfW could price Advances higher than GW

Erm, until recently TfW did not sell Advance tickets between Cardiff Central and Swansea. GWR still don't sell Standard Class ones. It's TfW that are encouraging more people to use their trains, not GWR.

VT 390 said:
This is a good point which I had not thought of, though they usually announce how many carriages each train has.

If people book a ticket online or at a ticket machine they aren't told how many carriages each train has...

VT 390 · 20 Aug 2019

Starmill said:
If people book a ticket online or at a ticket machine they aren't told how many carriages each train has...

I know that but it is usually announced at the station when they do the platform announcements for each train as well as on the departure boards (not the main ones the ones on the platform) for each service.

Starmill · 20 Aug 2019

VT 390 said:
I know that but it is usually announced at the station when they do the platform announcements for each train as well as on the departure boards (not the main ones the ones on the platform) for each service.

Yes, but as my post implied this is already too late for many people, who have already made their travel plans, is it not?

Furthermore, the screen will tell you that the train is formed of 2 or 3 coaches, but it will not tell you that the following train is formed of 5, 9 or 10 coaches unless you cross to the platform for that service. Most people will not know there is a possibility of this.

Envoy · 20 Aug 2019

I have been looking at schedules at Cardiff Central after the December timetable change. Looks like the PAD > SWA will leave CDF at x40 with the MAN > west Wales leaving at x45 - which is rather regrettable as we have 2 express services leaving almost together. At least people from London can stay on the IET as far as SWA and then make an on the flat change to the 175’s going west.

However, I notice that say at 11.05 the PAD > CDF (terminates) arrives and at 11.12 a Transport for Wales stopper heads off to Llanelli. So, we could well find people coming off the IET only to transfer to a 2 coach 150? Yikes!

Peregrine 4903 · 20 Aug 2019

Envoy said:
I have been looking at schedules at Cardiff Central after the December timetable change. Looks like the PAD > SWA will leave CDF at x40 with the MAN > west Wales leaving at x45 - which is rather regrettable as we have 2 express services leaving almost together. At least people from London can stay on the IET as far as SWA and then make an on the flat change to the 175’s going west.

However, I notice that say at 11.05 the PAD > CDF (terminates) arrives and at 11.12 a Transport for Wales stopper heads off to Llanelli. So, we could well find people coming off the IET only to transfer to a 2 coach 150? Yikes!

I'm glad that they have moved the Swansea stopped to before the Manchester to West Wales service. It will clearly reduce overcrowding. It is a bit of shame the services couldn't be slightly more spaced out.

However I feel dreadfully sorry for the passengers transferring to the 2 car 150 to Llanelli. I have never been on a 150 but from what I hear of them that sounds like a thoroughly unpleasant journey especially if the train is overcrowded which it is likely to be.

Wilts Wanderer · 21 Aug 2019

What's even worse is that in most hours TfW have extended their Ebbw Vale service through to Bridgend and it has been shoehorned into the timetable 4 mins in front of the Padd-Swansea, which then has to wait outside Bridgend while the TfW unit shunts platforms.

This particularly moronic piece of timetabling costs at least 5 mins in journey time for GWR. It's almost as if the industry has forgotten why the Great Western electrification is happening!

krus_aragon · 21 Aug 2019

Wilts Wanderer said:
What's even worse is that in most hours TfW have extended their Ebbw Vale service through to Bridgend and it has been shoehorned into the timetable 4 mins in front of the Padd-Swansea, which then has to wait outside Bridgend while the TfW unit shunts platforms.

This particularly moronic piece of timetabling costs at least 5 mins in journey time for GWR. It's almost as if the industry has forgotten why the Great Western electrification is happening!

That's awkward. It took me a moment to remember that bay Platform 1A is only accessible from the Barry direction, so isn't of any use here.

This extension of Ebbw Vale to Bridgend doesn't look like the first step toward a path for a half-hourly Maesteg service either, as it arrives at Bridgend ten minutes after the current Maesteg service. It doesn't serve any intermediate stations between Cardiff and Bridgend either. I can't see what the motivation for extending it is (other than possibly filling a half-hour gap in the eastbound service from Bridgend between xx55 and xx25).

Running it after the GWR Swansea train wouldn't help that much, as then it'd be in the way of the TfW service to Carmarthen/Milford.

30907 · 21 Aug 2019

Wilts Wanderer said:
What's even worse is that in most hours TfW have extended their Ebbw Vale service through to Bridgend and it has been shoehorned into the timetable 4 mins in front of the Padd-Swansea, which then has to wait outside Bridgend while the TfW unit shunts platforms.

This particularly moronic piece of timetabling costs at least 5 mins in journey time for GWR. It's almost as if the industry has forgotten why the Great Western electrification is happening!

It's more like 1 1/2 minutes. Except when (I missed these in an earlier comment) the Manchester isn't looped at Cardiff - then it gets tight. I agree it isn't clever.

nw1 · 21 Aug 2019

To simplify the timetable and produce a more even service, as well as avoid the overcrowding mentioned above, I'm wondering whether it would be better to run all Paddington-Cardiff trains onto Swansea (thus producing a half-hourly service) and then run the Milford Haven service to and from Swansea only... much like it was done back in the early 1990s? The Manchester service could then terminate at Cardiff for onward connections.

The other problem with running the West Wales services to and from Manchester is that it renders them more susceptible to delays. Is it actually necessary to have trains running through to everywhere or would the service be more reliable, regular and less prone to overcrowding if split into sub-sections, with through passengers changing? Are there really huge numbers of passengers travelling from the Manchester line through to West Wales to justify a through service? If you're travelling from the Solent or Bristol/Bath areas to West Wales you have to change, so it's only like that.

Peregrine 4903 · 21 Aug 2019

nickw1 said:
To simplify the timetable and produce a more even service, as well as avoid the overcrowding mentioned above, I'm wondering whether it would be better to run all Paddington-Cardiff trains onto Swansea (thus producing a half-hourly service) and then run the Milford Haven service to and from Swansea only... much like it was done back in the early 1990s? The Manchester service could then terminate at Cardiff for onward connections.

The other problem with running the West Wales services to and from Manchester is that it renders them more susceptible to delays. Is it actually necessary to have trains running through to everywhere or would the service be more reliable, regular and less prone to overcrowding if split into sub-sections, with through passengers changing? Are there really huge numbers of passengers travelling from the Manchester line through to West Wales to justify a through service? If you're travelling from the Solent or Bristol/Bath areas to West Wales you have to change, so it's only like that.

I think this is a great idea apart from the fact that passengers travelling from Manchester to the West of Wales will now have to do 2 changes to complete their journey. Maybe the Manchester trains should terminate at Swansea instead.

I definetley think that all the Paddington to Cardiff services should be extended to Swansea if capacity permits it.

krus_aragon · 21 Aug 2019

nickw1 said:
To simplify the timetable and produce a more even service, as well as avoid the overcrowding mentioned above, I'm wondering whether it would be better to run all Paddington-Cardiff trains onto Swansea (thus producing a half-hourly service) and then run the Milford Haven service to and from Swansea only... much like it was done back in the early 1990s? The Manchester service could then terminate at Cardiff for onward connections.

The other problem with running the West Wales services to and from Manchester is that it renders them more susceptible to delays. Is it actually necessary to have trains running through to everywhere or would the service be more reliable, regular and less prone to overcrowding if split into sub-sections, with through passengers changing? Are there really huge numbers of passengers travelling from the Manchester line through to West Wales to justify a through service? If you're travelling from the Solent or Bristol/Bath areas to West Wales you have to change, so it's only like that.

The services were joined together to reduce the number of trains terminating at Cardiff Central. I don't know whether the new layout makes this easier to acommodate, or if the larger number of services these days has effectively eaten it up already.

Operating Milford-Swansea and Cardiff-Manchester would necessitate two changes for those travelling from West Wales to destinations north of Newport. That might be a hard sell.

tomwills98 · 21 Aug 2019

yorkie said:
Is it made clear to passengers that the next train is less busy? In my experience passengers often have little knowledge of such matters and just get on the first available train.

Most of the time it's made very clear. Countless times I've been on platform 3 & 4 and passengers have been told the GWR train is next but whilst you can lead a horse to water... It's like those five minutes are life and death to some people.

krus_aragon · 21 Aug 2019

Roughly a decade ago, I was travelling from Cardiff to Llanelli on a semi-regular basis. One one occasion I found that I'd missed the ATW train, as I forgot about differing times on weekdays and Saturdays. I got on the GWR service a few minutes later, and knowing the layout at Swansea, knew that the ATW service couldn't depart for Llanelli until the GWR service had arrived. I positioned myself at a door near the front of the train, and on arrival I opened the door, strode across the platform, and boarded the ATW train, all within about five seconds. Moments later the hustle alarm sounded, then we were off, and I was feeling very chuffed!

Envoy · 22 Aug 2019

Yesterday, in mid afternoon, I saw a rammed 2 coach 150 Sprinter leaving Cardiff for Llanelli. Apparently, it was operating a Holyhead to Llanelli service - yes, a train intended for short journeys on branch lines! Anyway, it seems to me that a re think about services west of Cardiff is needed? I was very surprised to read here that the Ebbw Vale service was going to run to Bridgend just ahead of GWR’s London to Swansea express. Could the Ebbw Vale service not have gone down the Vale of Glamorgan Coast line to terminate in the bay platform at Bridgend? I am sure that they have good reason for not doing that but all very unfortunate - especially as it does not provide stops at Pontyclun, Llanharan & Pencoed.

I wonder if it would be better to have the Transport for Wales Cheltenham services extended to Kidderminster via Droitwich & Worcester in or to give these places better connectivity with the the south west via a change at Cheltenham? Furthermore, I would suggest that it would be useful for these services to be extended to a terminal in the bay at Bridgend to thus provide direct links for Cheltenham & Gloucester with the seaside town of Barry (nearest point on coast) as well as Cardiff Airport via the short bus link from Rhoose station?

krus_aragon · 22 Aug 2019

Envoy said:
I was very surprised to read here that the Ebbw Vale service was going to run to Bridgend just ahead of GWR’s London to Swansea express. Could the Ebbw Vale service not have gone down the Vale of Glamorgan Coast line to terminate in the bay platform at Bridgend?

Reading between the lines, I guessed that the Ebbw service is extended to Bridgend in order to fill a half-hour gap in the eastbound mainline departures back to Cardiff. If that's the motivation, going the long way via the VoG line might not get them there in time. Plus there's no access from the bay platform to the mainline, so you'd still have to shunt around at Bridgend.

Cardiff Central - Milford Haven and connections questions regarding timetabling?

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