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Greater Anglia V Great Northern GTR

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Jadey

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I am after some advice and appreciate anyone who has time to reply, so thank you in advance.

I am trying to find out the main differences between working for Greater Anglia as a driver compared to working for Great Northern GTR

I can see GTR’s base pay is 63,196 from October

Greater Anglia base pay is 48,737

Would anyone know why there is a large difference in base pay between the two companies?

Are the shifts quite similar for either company?

Appreciate any help.

Thanks
 
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ComUtoR

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Most pay disparity is down to history of each TOC. Conditions vary considerably and that can have a huge impact on pay. Money is great but conditions can mean the difference between a healthy work/life balance.

I work a maximum day of 9hrs 15mins but GTR have a maximum day of 9hrs 50mins. I started on 9hrs 45mins and I don't think I could go back to a longer day.
GTR also has Sundays outside but their latest deal is to have a committed number of Sundays per year. It pays considerably well but I work a 4 day week and even 12 extra Sundays per year (making a 5 day week) would upset me.
DOO is a factor.
Taxi agreement is a factor.

Numerous conditions are bought and sold by each TOC year by year. It also depends on when you decide to sell out. My TOC has sold various conditions cheaply and we have very little to sell. When you give up conditions when your low paid its 'cheaper' If you were offered a 4% rise, cash only. Would you take it or would you prefer 2% cash and 2% worth of condition improvements ?

If GTR sell their Sundays (which almost happened) They would be in for a huge pay rise. Their Sundays are worth an additional £5k. If the company decided to buy this now it would cost the current rate. In the future it would cost more because your basic pay and Sunday rates are higher.

GTR are primarily London based metro so have a wage that reflects the living costs for London. As you go further out then your cost of living reduces and wages are reflected accordingly.

Lots and lots of factors tbh.

I don't work for GA or GTR but I guarantee there is a disparity between Ts&Cs too.
 

OneLowban

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ComUtoR has pretty much summed it up. Whilst not too clued up myself yet, I have heard the word “conditions” many, many times at GA in the good sense.

As you are mentioning GTR GN I would assume you are looking at the West Anglia side, in which case the base pay at GA will be £51,100 without Sundays.
 

387star

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Most pay disparity is down to history of each TOC. Conditions vary considerably and that can have a huge impact on pay. Money is great but conditions can mean the difference between a healthy work/life balance.

I work a maximum day of 9hrs 15mins but GTR have a maximum day of 9hrs 50mins. I started on 9hrs 45mins and I don't think I could go back to a longer day.
GTR also has Sundays outside but their latest deal is to have a committed number of Sundays per year. It pays considerably well but I work a 4 day week and even 12 extra Sundays per year (making a 5 day week) would upset me.
DOO is a factor.
Taxi agreement is a factor.

Numerous conditions are bought and sold by each TOC year by year. It also depends on when you decide to sell out. My TOC has sold various conditions cheaply and we have very little to sell. When you give up conditions when your low paid its 'cheaper' If you were offered a 4% rise, cash only. Would you take it or would you prefer 2% cash and 2% worth of condition improvements ?

If GTR sell their Sundays (which almost happened) They would be in for a huge pay rise. Their Sundays are worth an additional £5k. If the company decided to buy this now it would cost the current rate. In the future it would cost more because your basic pay and Sunday rates are higher.

GTR are primarily London based metro so have a wage that reflects the living costs for London. As you go further out then your cost of living reduces and wages are reflected accordingly.

Lots and lots of factors tbh.

I don't work for GA or GTR but I guarantee there is a disparity between Ts&Cs too.
I used to think this but GWR pay 62k from next year and have depots in pemzance etc

Greater Anglia have a depot in Cambridge a very expensive city with a much lower wage
 

ComUtoR

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Greater Anglia have a depot in Cambridge a very expensive city with a much lower wage

SE are also getting screwed over and GTR are their Sister TOC. Even with Southern (*before they were eaten by the great beast Thameslink) The wage gap with SE just grew over time and they had the same District Organiser !

SE are very far behind any other London TOC and falling behind nationally too.



*bonus internet points for the literary reference
 

gazza87

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18 Sep 2018
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Great information everyone.
Just in your opinion, if you had the choice to work between the two companies out of the same Depot location, which would you be leaning towards? Many Thanks
 

Jadey

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ComUtoR has pretty much summed it up. Whilst not too clued up myself yet, I have heard the word “conditions” many, many times at GA in the good sense.

As you are mentioning GTR GN I would assume you are looking at the West Anglia side, in which case the base pay at GA will be £51,100 without Sundays.

Yes I am looking at Cambridge, which is on the West Anglia side I believe?
 

Jadey

Member
Joined
18 Aug 2019
Messages
15
Location
Baldock
Most pay disparity is down to history of each TOC. Conditions vary considerably and that can have a huge impact on pay. Money is great but conditions can mean the difference between a healthy work/life balance.

I work a maximum day of 9hrs 15mins but GTR have a maximum day of 9hrs 50mins. I started on 9hrs 45mins and I don't think I could go back to a longer day.
GTR also has Sundays outside but their latest deal is to have a committed number of Sundays per year. It pays considerably well but I work a 4 day week and even 12 extra Sundays per year (making a 5 day week) would upset me.
DOO is a factor.
Taxi agreement is a factor.

Numerous conditions are bought and sold by each TOC year by year. It also depends on when you decide to sell out. My TOC has sold various conditions cheaply and we have very little to sell. When you give up conditions when your low paid its 'cheaper' If you were offered a 4% rise, cash only. Would you take it or would you prefer 2% cash and 2% worth of condition improvements ?

If GTR sell their Sundays (which almost happened) They would be in for a huge pay rise. Their Sundays are worth an additional £5k. If the company decided to buy this now it would cost the current rate. In the future it would cost more because your basic pay and Sunday rates are higher.

GTR are primarily London based metro so have a wage that reflects the living costs for London. As you go further out then your cost of living reduces and wages are reflected accordingly.

Lots and lots of factors tbh.

I don't work for GA or GTR but I guarantee there is a disparity between Ts&Cs too.

Thank you for all your time in replying, this is really useful. If the money was the same pay, would you say that GA is a better place to work than GTR?
 

ComUtoR

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I've never worked for either. You need to speak to Drivers and staff from both sides to get any real useful information. When it comes down to conditions, what people want are very personal to them. Over time, my opinions have changed and my needs have changed. Some prefer a long day with a well paced diagram and others prefer short and sweet. Do you have a preference for what you would drive ? Do you want more leave days per annum ? Does working Sunday bother you ? I drive Metro and I like it (yes I'm odd) but some like Mainline work so they would have a preference for the routes they drive.

There really is so much to consider and what you are willing to sacrifice.
 

MrPIC

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Great information everyone.
Just in your opinion, if you had the choice to work between the two companies out of the same Depot location, which would you be leaning towards? Many Thanks

GTR All day long.
 

whoosh

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West Anglia side of Greater Anglia has:

No booking on before 05:00
No booking off after 01:00

(The GN side of GTR miss this condition the most, as it went when harmonisation took place between GN and Thameslink under First Capital Connect)

Maximum 10 hour day.

Commitment to work ALL Sundays rostered (although you can get someone else to cover a shift if they want to and are available)

I *think* it's flat rate on Sundays.

I might not have up to date information, so happy to be corrected on all of that.



GTR have:

Turns can book on or off at anytime. New drivers are not part of the taxi agreement.

Commitment to work 12 rostered Sundays per year (three per quarter). You can get someone else to work one of these for you if they want to and are available.

Maximum turn length 9 hours 54 minutes.

Sundays pay time plus 55%.



West Anglia - each depot has one big link everyone is in. This makes it easy to swap shifts or weeks of work, as route and traction knowledge isn't an issue. Same with swapping holiday weeks.


GTR, previously had one big link at each depot, but some depots now have separate links (Cambridge is one - There is the Brighton link, and the Maidstone link who will maybe one day learn to Maidstone!). Hornsey has two links where there are route AND traction differences.


The GN side has historically lost drivers to LNER and the Thameslink side to East Midlands. West Anglia and Great Northern were one franchise as WAGN with the same pay and T&Cs, but since the GN merged with Thameslink (as First Capital Connect) the pay deals they've had over the years have brought changes to the flexibility of booking on/off times, with a taxi agreement initially brought in to aid in this, which has since been adjusted in the latest GTR pay deal to not include new drivers.

Sundays used to be all committed on the GN when it was WAGN, but the harmonisation with Thameslink under FCC made Sundays entirely voluntary for a time - which has now been changed to a commitment to work 12 per year.
Pay and annual leave entitlement also increased on the GN to harmonise with Thameslink under FCC.

Route and traction specific links have been now been introduced with the latest pay deal, doing away with a "facets of work to be shared as equally as possible," condition.

GTR and it's forerunners have basically always had a shortage of drivers which has never been caught up on as the service has increased each year. Factor in that drivers leave to do Intercity or even Continental work with other TOCs and Eurostar, good pay at Crossrail and the Overground, and to retain drivers during this critical period of the Thameslink programme a good pay offer was made.


Greater Anglia have competition for drivers with GTR and Cross Country at Cambridge. They did offer a large rise in a multi-year deal last year I think it was, but the drivers voted against it as they didn't like the changes to terms and conditions. I never did see what was on offer in any real detail, except that it included moving Sundays into the working week.

GTR All day long.

Funnily enough, one driver left GTR, taking a pay cut, to be at a GA depot nearer to home. However, he returned within 18 months as he didnt like it at all in comparison. Better management, better union representation, better work content, nicer route - just better all round, is his opinion. It was something he felt he had to give a try, as being nearer to home was desirable, but he's definitely happier at GTR.

SE are very far behind any other London TOC and falling behind nationally too.


South Eastern got a good deal a few years ago with a good rise which brought to an end the poor 'annualised hours' system they were on. I think it put them on a 4 day week as well.

It seemed to seek to stem the flow of inner suburban drivers jumping to London Overground.

Since then though, there seems to have been some stagnation in comparison to elsewhere.
 
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Bromley boy

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South Eastern got a good deal a few years ago with a good rise which brought to an end the poor 'annualised hours' system they were on. I think it put them on a 4 day week as well.

Whatever may or may not have happened a few years back, as per the previous poster, SE are now well off the pace in terms of pay.

It’s not a matter of a couple of grand, they’re approaching £10k behind GTR for similar work.

Add in a weak union, rubbish work, and lots of uncertainty about a potential TFL takeover of the metro routes, and it isn’t a happy ship!
 

whoosh

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Yes with the exception of that particular deal a few years ago, the impression I get is that the union isn't very strong there.

In fact, the union is mostly very good at GTR, and I was amazed at the difference in this from my previous TOC. Much more pro-active and approachable. Better at getting out information as to what agreements are, etc.
 
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