• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

New trains for East Midlands Franchise

Status
Not open for further replies.

Jorge Da Silva

Established Member
Joined
4 Apr 2018
Messages
2,591
Location
Cleethorpes, North East Lincolnshire
Thats what iam wondering cause Scotrail have no other 170s free and all of GAs 170s are going to wales so their are not a huge amount of options

156s must be staying long term

But according to Abellio on one of the websites (I can’t remember which one, I’ll try and find it) they are replacing ALL existing stock.

But I get what you mean, with what stock?

Edit:

Here it is https://www.railmagazine.com/news/network/east-midlands-railway-takes-over-from-emt

As part of the new deal, Abellio promises to replace the entire existing EMR fleet with new and cascaded trains (a deal for 33 bi-mode trains from Hitachi has already been agreed), and double capacity into St Pancras International. It also aims to add 40% more peak-time capacity into Nottingham through more services and longer trains. Hydrogen trains also form part of the long-term plans.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

The Ham

Established Member
Joined
6 Jul 2012
Messages
10,284
Thats what iam wondering cause Scotrail have no other 170s free and all of GAs 170s are going to wales so their are not a huge amount of options

156s must be staying long term

Unless there's a unit swap with XC so that EMR get the 170's and XC use the 158's (in pairs) for the Stansted services and the 222's for the other 170 routes plus some for strengthening the existing Voyager fleet.

That would allow EMT to have 16*3 and 13*2 (29 units) coach 170's that's enough to replace the 158's (26 units) plus a few. How many that few is depends on how many fewer units won't be needed due to changes to services run.
 

krus_aragon

Established Member
Joined
10 Jun 2009
Messages
6,042
Location
North Wales
But according to Abellio on one of the websites (I can’t remember which one, I’ll try and find it) they are replacing ALL existing stock.

But I get what you mean, with what stock?

Edit:

Here it is https://www.railmagazine.com/news/network/east-midlands-railway-takes-over-from-emt
Also at https://railway-news.com/400-million-hitachi-trains-for-east-midlands-railway/
Abellio MD said:
These new [Hitachi] trains form the centrepiece of our ambitious plans for a complete replacement of all the trains on the East Midlands Railway and more than £600 million investment to really improve the regions railways.
 

Jorge Da Silva

Established Member
Joined
4 Apr 2018
Messages
2,591
Location
Cleethorpes, North East Lincolnshire
Unless there's a unit swap with XC so that EMR get the 170's and XC use the 158's (in pairs) for the Stansted services and the 222's for the other 170 routes plus some for strengthening the existing Voyager fleet.

That would allow EMT to have 16*3 and 13*2 (29 units) coach 170's that's enough to replace the 158's (26 units) plus a few. How many that few is depends on how many fewer units won't be needed due to changes to services run.

Could be, that solves the Class 158’s but the Class 156’s?? But seen as most 158’s are used on Norwich to Liverpool which will be split at Nottingham and the Nottingham to Liverpool service transferred to TPE, Could the freed up 170’s (replacing 158’s) be used to replace some 156’s?? With WMR 170s potentially replacing remaining 156’s? In other words, 170s (replacing 158’s) that could have been used on Liverpool-Nottingham section route be used to replace 156’s and other 170’s from WMR used to replace remaining 156’s. Meaning all regional services will be 170s

This would mean:

  • 29 units of 170’s from XC to replace 26 units of 158’s
  • 23 units of 170’s from WMR and 5 units of 170’s from ScotRail to replace 24 units of 156’s (and 153’s replaced by cascaded 156’s in the short term, these would be replaced by the 170’s later on)
 
Last edited:

NoMorePacers

Established Member
Joined
18 Feb 2016
Messages
1,391
Location
Humberside
Could be, that solves the Class 158’s but the Class 156’s?? But seen as most 158’s are used on Norwich to Liverpool which will be split at Nottingham and the Nottingham to Liverpool service transferred to TPE, Could the freed up 170’s (replacing 158’s) be used to replace some 156’s?? With WMR 170s potentially replacing remaining 156’s? In other words, 170s (replacing 158’s) that could have been used on Liverpool-Nottingham section route be used to replace 156’s and other 170’s from WMR used to replace remaining 156’s. Meaning all regional services will be 170s

This would mean:

  • 29 units of 170’s from XC to replace 26 units of 158’s
  • 23 units of 170’s from WMR and 5 units of 170’s from ScotRail to replace 24 units of 156’s (and 153’s replaced by cascaded 156’s in the short term, these would be replaced by the 170’s later on)
That still doesn't quite add up, when you factor in the 153s replaced by GA 156s.
 

The Ham

Established Member
Joined
6 Jul 2012
Messages
10,284
153’s replaced by 5 170s and 9 156’s. These 156’s along with all the others (totals of 24 units) replaced later by 23 170’s. Plus some 153’s are used with 156’s or doubled up so... it could work.

Unless I'm missing something. There's also 29 from XC to replace 26 158's, so that's at least 3 extra, which is more than the 1 too few highlighted.
 

RealTrains07

Established Member
Joined
28 Feb 2019
Messages
1,749
153’s replaced by 5 170s and 9 156’s. These 156’s along with all the others (totals of 24 units) replaced later by 23 170’s. Plus some 153’s are used with 156’s or doubled up so... it could work.
I doubt cross country will give up their 170s that easily
 

Jorge Da Silva

Established Member
Joined
4 Apr 2018
Messages
2,591
Location
Cleethorpes, North East Lincolnshire
Unless I'm missing something. There's also 29 from XC to replace 26 158's, so that's at least 3 extra, which is more than the 1 too few highlighted.

Yes there is 3 extra so that should more than cover the shortage highlighted plus some of the 170’s replacing 158’s will not be used on Liverpool to Nottingham these could be used on other routes? TPE May go with different stock.
 

222001

Member
Joined
1 Sep 2006
Messages
716
Location
Chesterfield
I've been trying to figure out where the replacement local stock is coming from. EMR have been quoted as saying: "Replacement of the entire train fleet with more than 340 carriages".
Once you take the 340 and subtract the 80x order (165), and incoming 360s (84), you have 91 incoming carriages for the regional services.
So if you then take the 91 and subtract the widely reported 5x3 car 170s coming from SR, and expected 17x2 car / 6x3 car 170s to come from the West Midlands, that leaves you with 24 carriages to find from somewhere.
SN have 24 carriages in their 2 car 171 fleet, as do XC in their 170/5 and 170/6 fleet... so who knows, but all of this has to be in place by December 2021... it's a complete mystery.
 

clagmonster

Established Member
Joined
8 Jun 2005
Messages
2,442
This quote from the ITT may be relevant to the rolling stock discussion:
"5.9.38 To that end, only the following rolling stock may be proposed by Bidders for inclusion within the East Midlands franchise Train Fleet:
...
b)Electric or diesel or bi-mode or hybrid multiple units, locomotives, driving van trailers and coaching stock of any class that are leased by a Relevant Operator other than the current East Midlands Franchisee at the date of issuing this ITT and that either:
i)Will be demonstrably surplus to the requirements of that Relevant Operator because:
...
C)The Bidder proposes to release suitable alternative replacement stock from the East Midlands franchise that could be used by the donor franchisee.ii)Will not be demonstrably surplus to the requirements of that operator, but the Bidder can demonstrate that it will be feasible for that operator to secure alternative rolling stock in sufficient time to enable that operator to maintain the operation of its train services to at least current standards.Alternative rolling stock must be capable of delivering comparable or better operational performance characteristics, and of achieving comparable or better levels of passenger satisfaction.For these purposes the Bidder must demonstrate that it has allowed an appropriate lead time for any modifications that may be needed to the alternative rolling stock to enable it to meet the stated operational and quality requirements, for the training of drivers, and a reasonable contingency margin."
https://assets.publishing.service.g...t-midlands-franchise-invitation-to-tender.pdf

It is possible that Abellio have proposed that other units, likely 158s or 222s, are cascaded to another franchise in return for 170s.

It is also possible the Abellio have proposed using 170s from another operator and have a plan to replace said units.

Either way, I highly suspect there is a DfT approved scheme to get at some additional 170s from elsewhere.

For the record, I can't really see 222s to Stansted as a four car would be a capacity reduction over a 3 car 170 and anything longer would not fit in platform 2 at Stansted. The only really suitable route currently operated by Cross Country 170s in my opinion would be Nottingham - Cardiff. This would probably release around 8 units, which if all 3 car would arrive at 24 vehicles. Not sure the concentration of 2 cars on other Cross Country routes would be popular mind.

The other likely possibility is Southern, in which case I suspect they have some form of bimode unit in mind for Uckfield (Marshlink wouldn't displace enough units). This would cascade far more than 24 vehicles.
 

222001

Member
Joined
1 Sep 2006
Messages
716
Location
Chesterfield
The other likely possibility is Southern, in which case I suspect they have some form of bimode unit in mind for Uckfield (Marshlink wouldn't displace enough units). This would cascade far more than 24 vehicles.

If they only took the 2 cars it would equal 24 (with perhaps the 4 cars going elsewhere). It just seems so unlikely, but crazier things have happened.
 

Laketop

Member
Joined
12 Mar 2019
Messages
41
I've been trying to figure out where the replacement local stock is coming from. EMR have been quoted as saying: "Replacement of the entire train fleet with more than 340 carriages".
Once you take the 340 and subtract the 80x order (165), and incoming 360s (84), you have 91 incoming carriages for the regional services.
So if you then take the 91 and subtract the widely reported 5x3 car 170s coming from SR, and expected 17x2 car / 6x3 car 170s to come from the West Midlands, that leaves you with 24 carriages to find from somewhere.
SN have 24 carriages in their 2 car 171 fleet, as do XC in their 170/5 and 170/6 fleet... so who knows, but all of this has to be in place by December 2021... it's a complete mystery.

Something that hasn't been taken into account or discussed a lot is EMRs plan to trial hydrogen trains - perhaps they are also including this in their carriage count?
 

222001

Member
Joined
1 Sep 2006
Messages
716
Location
Chesterfield
Something that hasn't been taken into account or discussed a lot is EMRs plan to trial hydrogen trains - perhaps they are also including this in their carriage count?

Apparently that's just one unit, and I sort of assumed that's why they said 'more than' 340 carriages, as they're not sure on the finer details of that one?
 

Jorge Da Silva

Established Member
Joined
4 Apr 2018
Messages
2,591
Location
Cleethorpes, North East Lincolnshire
There are to be by the end of 2020 of the regional fleet:
  • 5x170’s
  • 24x156’s
  • 26x158’s
So the proposal:


  • 29 units of 170’s from XC to replace 26 units of 158’s

This would have 3 extra as pointed out by The Ham. This would cover the 158’s

  • 23 units of 170’s from WMR and 5 units of 170’s from ScotRail to replace 24 units of 156’s (and 153’s replaced by cascaded 156’s in the short term, these would be replaced by the 170’s later on)

The 23 units of 170’s from WMR would replace the 15x156’s (inherited from EMT) and the 9 units transferred from Greater Anglia. There is also 5 units of 170’s transferred from ScotRail.


The total fleet size of the regional stock would be 57x170 consisting of:

27 x 3-car 170’s
30 x 2-car 170’s

That would mean 2 extra units on the regional fleet than currently and baring in mind some of the 153’s double up or join with the 156’s to for a three car unit.

So it should add up and can anyone come up with any alternatives? If Abellio are replacing ALL there stock with new or cascaded stock I think 170’s seem like the most likely option.
 

Class 170101

Established Member
Joined
1 Mar 2014
Messages
7,909
Presumably EMR will have spare units because of not doing Liverpool to Nottingham.

Class 222s should also be able to operate Birmingham to Leicester but would be unsuitable beyond Leicester to Stansted Airport due to Sprinter Differentials.
 

43096

On Moderation
Joined
23 Nov 2015
Messages
15,165
Rather than everyone playing “fantasy fleets” how about waiting until things are announced?

There’s an awful lot of guesses, general dribble and misunderstandings (e.g. people forgetting the Liverpool-Nottingham service is planned for transfer out, which changes the unit requirements) going on.
 

ExRes

Established Member
Joined
16 Dec 2012
Messages
5,761
Location
Back in Sussex
Rather than everyone playing “fantasy fleets” how about waiting until things are announced?

There’s an awful lot of guesses, general dribble and misunderstandings (e.g. people forgetting the Liverpool-Nottingham service is planned for transfer out, which changes the unit requirements) going on.

Yes, yes and yes
 

Class 466

Established Member
Joined
5 Mar 2010
Messages
1,409
I Personally wouldn’t be surprised to see some Scotrail (another Abellio franchise) 170s swap with 156s/158s from EMR.
 

59CosG95

Established Member
Joined
18 Aug 2013
Messages
6,477
Location
Between Peterborough & Bedlington
I Personally wouldn’t be surprised to see some Scotrail (another Abellio franchise) 170s swap with 156s/158s from EMR.
The "gang of 5" Eversholt 170s still with ScotRail (that is to say, 170416 to 170420) are mooted to come to EMR (as previously discussed), but I don't know for certain if ScotRail wishes to take on more 156s.
 

Class 466

Established Member
Joined
5 Mar 2010
Messages
1,409
The "gang of 5" Eversholt 170s still with ScotRail (that is to say, 170416 to 170420) are mooted to come to EMR (as previously discussed), but I don't know for certain if ScotRail wishes to take on more 156s.

It’s the only place they’ll realistically get 170s from in the timescale set though. I sincerely doubt Southern would do a trade for some 171s either. Especially as they’d have nonstandard couplers.

Bit of a conundrum for sure!
 

Jorge Da Silva

Established Member
Joined
4 Apr 2018
Messages
2,591
Location
Cleethorpes, North East Lincolnshire
https://www.railwaygazette.com/news...-midlands-railway-announces-three-brands.html

UK: Abellio officially launched East Midlands Railway as the new operator of the East Midlands franchise on August 19, the day after it formally took over from Stagecoach which had operated the services for 11 years under the East Midlands Trains brand.

More than £600m is to be spent on enhancements across the new franchise, which runs to August 21 2027 with the Department for Transport having an option for a two-year extension.

The services are to be operated under three sub-brands.

EMR Intercity will be used for long-distance Midland Main Line services between Sheffield, Derby, Nottingham, Loughborough, Leicester and London. The current inter-city fleet of diesel HSTs and Bombardier Class 222 Meridian DEMUs is to be replaced by 33 five-car Hitachi 200 km/h electro-diesel trainsets from 2022. Other plans include an increase in services, shorter journey times and a doubling of capacity into London to take account of growing travel demand.

The franchise’s east–west and regional services in central England are to be branded EMR Regional.

A new electric service between London St Pancras, Luton Airport Parkway, Bedford, Kettering, Wellingborough and Corby will be branded EMR Electrics. This is to be operated using refurbished Siemens Class 360 EMUs, and will have its own website, ‘easier’ ticketing and a dedicated platform at St Pancras. EMR said that once various developments had been completed, passengers would be able to reach the terminal at Luton Airport in ‘a little under half an hour’ from central London.

Other planned enhancements include the provision of more cycle and car parking spaces, the roll-out of smart ticketing by 2020, and £20m of station upgrades including additional seating and better lounge areas at London St Pancras.

‘Abellio’s exciting plans for East Midlands Railway will make a real difference to passengers, delivering state-of-the-art trains with more seats, station improvements and trialling hydrogen fuel cell technology to ensure that East Midlands Railway becomes one of the most environmentally-friendly in the UK’, said Rail Minister Chris Heaton-Harris. ‘This investment will also lead to more punctual journeys for passengers and play a major role in building a railway that’s fit for the future.’

More information.


First New bi-mode stock from April 2022
360's from 2020
Confirming 170's from Mid 2020 for regional fleet

It sounds like 156, 158 and 153's are all going to be replaced by 170's BUT the extra 156's are all temporary until the 170's are introduced and some 153's will remain joining with the 156's until the full 170's are introduced.
 
Last edited:

Class 466

Established Member
Joined
5 Mar 2010
Messages
1,409
https://www.railwaygazette.com/news...-midlands-railway-announces-three-brands.html



More information.


First New bi-mode stock from April 2022
360's from 2020
Confirming 170's from Mid 2020 for regional fleet

It sounds like 156, 158 and 153's are all going to be replaced by 170's BUT the extra 156's are all temporary until the 170's are introduced and some 153's will remain joining with the 156's until the full 170's are introduced.
Where does it say anything about 170s?
 

Jorge Da Silva

Established Member
Joined
4 Apr 2018
Messages
2,591
Location
Cleethorpes, North East Lincolnshire
Where does it say anything about 170s?

There is a video linked in the article


Also mentions only three fleets for the franchise eventually when all stock has been delivered and in service:

  • Hitachi bi-Mode AT300's for InterCity services
  • 110mph Class 360s for Corby services
  • Class 170 Turbostars for Regional service
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top