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New trains for East Midlands Franchise

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krus_aragon

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A quick slap-and-dash transcript of the relevant parts of the video for the regional fleet:
Julian Edwards said:
We'll see a significant uplift in Turbostar class 170 units in both two- and three-car formations. There'll be no longer any line served by just one-car trains, so as early as this December when the 156s come across from a sister company we'll have minimum two-car operation on all of our lines.
...
the 170s start coming in mid-2020 so that we uplift the regional fleet pretty quickly.
...
we'll probably want to save one or two small fleets of 153 to give us some flexibility before the two- and three-car formation 170s join us; they won't be running on their own, they'll be bolted to PRM-compliant 156s.
 
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222001

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Class 170 Turbostars for Regional service

Definitely confirms that some extra 170s will have to come from somewhere then. Take your pick out of SR/LM/AW/CH/SN/XC/NT. Seems like the LM ones are already bagged for EM, and I'd say you could rule out XC and CH. Leaves you with SR/AW/SN/NT for a possible swap for 158s, which seems the only realistic option in the timescales specified. Of course we could all be completely way off. No harm in guessing though eh!
 

59CosG95

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Definitely confirms that some extra 170s will have to come from somewhere then. Take your pick out of SR/LM/AW/CH/SN/XC/NT. Seems like the LM ones are already bagged for EM, and I'd say you could rule out XC and CH. Leaves you with SR/AW/SN/NT for a possible swap for 158s, which seems the only realistic option in the timescales specified. Of course we could all be completely way off. No harm in guessing though eh!
The Greater Anglia ones (170201-208, 170270-273) are all bound for Transport for Wales, so they can be ruled out.
Northern now have their full complement of 170/4s (453-461; 472-478), so they can be ruled out too.
ScotRail has 170416-420, originally due to go to Southern for conversion to 171s, coming off-lease quite soon (after displacement by 385s), and WMR obviously has their new 196s shaking things up, so 170501-517 & 170630-635 seem like the most likely to transfer.
I am, however, also hedging my bets on the 5 Eversholt 170s (416-420) coming to the East Midlands...
 

222001

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I am, however, also hedging my bets on the 5 Eversholt 170s (416-420) coming to the East Midlands...

Same here. After the 5 SR ones and all the LM ones, there needs to be 24 extra carriages in the fleet to make up the 340 carriages that EMR have promised.
 

RealTrains07

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Same here. After the 5 SR ones and all the LM ones, there needs to be 24 extra carriages in the fleet to make up the 340 carriages that EMR have promised.
The 5 170s from SR I thought were already confirmed for EMR
 

RealTrains07

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The Greater Anglia ones (170201-208, 170270-273) are all bound for Transport for Wales, so they can be ruled out.
Northern now have their full complement of 170/4s (453-461; 472-478), so they can be ruled out too.
ScotRail has 170416-420, originally due to go to Southern for conversion to 171s, coming off-lease quite soon (after displacement by 385s), and WMR obviously has their new 196s shaking things up, so 170501-517 & 170630-635 seem like the most likely to transfer.
I am, however, also hedging my bets on the 5 Eversholt 170s (416-420) coming to the East Midlands...
Also might be worth pointing out CR are swapping their 172s for WMR 170s which means less 170s for other companies

Cause the plan is for WMR to add 172s from CR into their long term fleet?
 

swt_passenger

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I can’t see any likelihood whatsoever of any of Southern’s existing 171s being offleased and returned to 170 status.

(Mind you I never thought 442s would ever be resurrected...)
 

Jorge Da Silva

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Definitely confirms that some extra 170s will have to come from somewhere then. Take your pick out of SR/LM/AW/CH/SN/XC/NT. Seems like the LM ones are already bagged for EM, and I'd say you could rule out XC and CH. Leaves you with SR/AW/SN/NT for a possible swap for 158s, which seems the only realistic option in the timescales specified. Of course we could all be completely way off. No harm in guessing though eh!

There are currently 62 EMR regional trains, 21x153's, 15x156's and 26x158's. My bet is on the 23 from LM (West Midlands Railway) to EMR, the 5 from ScotRail and the other 34 units come from???? However it is important to note that Liverpool-Nottingham WILL be transferred to another operator so maybe not as many as 62 170's will be required, so... anyone know how many will be required?
 

Jorge Da Silva

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Wait what?! Has that been confirmed?

Also might be worth pointing out CR are swapping their 172s for WMR 170s which means less 170s for other companies

Cause the plan is for WMR to add 172s from CR into their long term fleet?

Has CR confirmed 172's swap? as far as I was aware the WMR 170's are not going to anyone at the moment so they are free for EMR to use. Plus the plan is 170's not 172's
 

59CosG95

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Has CR confirmed 172's swap? as far as I was aware the WMR 170's are not going to anyone at the moment so they are free for EMR to use. Plus the plan is 170's not 172's
Mind you, an exchange of the 4 172/1s (going to WMR), the non-XC 170/5s and 170/6s (going to EMR), and the 5 ScotRail Eversholt 170/4s (going to Chiltern) could work...but that's just speculation on my part.
 

59CosG95

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That’s only 23 at least 55 are required if not more ? The other 22 (or 34 as I originally calculated) come from?
Are you talking "units" or "Vehicles"? If the latter, there's 34 vehicles with the 170/5s alone (17 2-car units), plus another 18 from the 170/6s (6 3-car units), giving 52 vehicles in total. Add the 5 ScotRail units, and you have another 15 vehicles - a total of 67.
 

59CosG95

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Number crunching:
"At least 340 carriages", of which:
  • 165 (33x 5-car units) - new bi-modes for intercity services;
  • 64 (21x 4-car Class 360s) - ex-Greater Anglia EMUs for Corby services;
  • thus "at least" 91 - Regional units. It's worth bearing in mind that 22 3-car Class 185s are due to become available soon...
    • these would form 66 carriages.
    • Add in 34 Class 170/5 vehicles (17 units), and 18 Class 170/6 vehicles (6 units), and that's another 52...
 

swt_passenger

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There is a video linked in the article



Also mentions only three fleets for the franchise eventually when all stock has been delivered and in service:

  • Hitachi bi-Mode AT300's for InterCity services
  • 110mph Class 360s for Corby services
  • Class 170 Turbostars for Regional service

But at the same time he says in the video that the regional DMU fleet will be “brand new or refurbished”. Clear as mud, especially if brand new is given its normal meaning...
 

RealTrains07

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Wait what?! Has that been confirmed?
Has CR confirmed 172's swap? as far as I was aware the WMR 170's are not going to anyone at the moment so they are free for EMR to use. Plus the plan is 170's not 172's
Not officially confirmed as of yet however it is expected to happen as CR are said to have a want for more 170s as the 172s are mechanically different and CR want a uniform fleet of 170 units

If this goes ahead Whether WMR will keep the exchanged 172s long term is unknown but it makes sense as it will create a uniform fleet of 172s.

I cant remember a time where things like this are ‘officially announced’

Its said to be an opportunity really as WMR are looking at cascading and having a few extra 172s isnt a bad thing considering the 196s might be late

End of the day, EMR will still have at least 18 units to take from WMR if it goes ahead
 

RealTrains07

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  • thus "at least" 91 - Regional units. It's worth bearing in mind that 22 3-car Class 185s are due to become available soon...
And yet their has been no mention of where the 185s are going next?
That would plug the gap in terms of 156 replacement surely
 

222001

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And yet their has been no mention of where the 185s are going next?
That would plug the gap in terms of 156 replacement surely

185s would not be a good fit for EMR. Their lack of ability to do HST or SP speeds would severely restrict the routes they could operate.
 

RealTrains07

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185s would not be a good fit for EMR. Their lack of ability to do HST or SP speeds would severely restrict the routes they could operate.
These would be regional trains though, couldn’t you argue the same for the 170s they are not suited for HST speed either
 

Speedbird96

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These would be regional trains though, couldn’t you argue the same for the 170s they are not suited for HST speed either

You need to consider the fact that Class 185s are considerably heavier than the Class 170s, that was one of the reasons why TPE utilised Class 170s from South West Trains for their Manchester Piccadilly to Hull services due to their reduced weight, before those sets were acquired by Chiltern.

Is their any confirmation the 156s are not staying with EMR long term???

Been stated numerous times, the Class 156s are not staying long-term.
 

edwin_m

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These would be regional trains though, couldn’t you argue the same for the 170s they are not suited for HST speed either
I think the point was about differential speeds, which 170s can use but 185s can't. On many of EMR's regional routes SP differentials mean a 185 would have to run a lot slower than a 170, unless money was spent to upgrade the infrastructure to allow all units to run faster. There are a few HST differentials on the EMR regional network introduced by the Cross Country upgrade and possibly for other reasons, but most or all of them are for speeds above 100mph which neither class can reach.

185s might well appear on the Nottingham-Liverpool service after this is removed from the EMR network. I don't think differential restrictions between Nottingham and Sheffield are significant, and west of Sheffield the similar timings of the current EMR and TPE services show that the better performance of the 185 outweighs the penalty of lower speeds on this particular route.
 

RealTrains07

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I think the point was about differential speeds, which 170s can use but 185s can't. On many of EMR's regional routes SP differentials mean a 185 would have to run a lot slower than a 170, unless money was spent to upgrade the infrastructure to allow all units to run faster. There are a few HST differentials on the EMR regional network introduced by the Cross Country upgrade and possibly for other reasons, but most or all of them are for speeds above 100mph which neither class can reach.

185s might well appear on the Nottingham-Liverpool service after this is removed from the EMR network. I don't think differential restrictions between Nottingham and Sheffield are significant, and west of Sheffield the similar timings of the current EMR and TPE services show that the better performance of the 185 outweighs the penalty of lower speeds on this particular route.
What about lines such as derby to crewe. Thats more isolated from the rest of the HST part of the EMR network?
 

RealTrains07

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Dont know whether this has been said already but EMR have said today that they expect all 222s and their regional (except 153) will be rebranded
 
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