XP 64 coaches

D60 · 13 Mar 2018

Difficult to incorporate reply quotes in replies on this phone.. but, with regard to the moquette in 3083...

I have no first hand personal experience of the vehicle.. just pics posted online.. and somewhat hazy memories of the types of moquette still to be found in use on various types of stock 35-odd years ago.

Could we assume that 3083 received a mid-life refurb during its mainline career? Certainly the XP64 stock received a mid-life rebuild circa 1971... so possibly a refurb with new moquette for 3083 in the mid- /late-60s..?

Does anyone else recall such a colour of moquette being used by BR during this period? Like I say, I seem to recall something similar in declassified 1st saloons in 1st generation dmus in the early 1980s... Alternatively, a black/dark charcoal grey moquette with a similar checquer-board pattern was in use in 1st class compartment stock at this time..?

So it's possible it may have arrived at the SVR with relatively recently re-covered seats..? Alternatively, it didn't receive such a refurb, and a re-trim of the seats would have been an early priority for the SVR..?

It's my perception (perception only) that moquette of that era (40 to 50 years ago, so 1960s/70s) could sustain a longer service life than that of today.

And online pics (possibly on the VCT entry for 3083) show that it now sports a tasteful blue moquette on those inviting-looking seats..

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Hydraulic Jack · 17 Mar 2018

D60 said:
I believe also that the prototype Mk2 vehicle, FK 13252, ended its BR days, like the XP64 stock, on WR secondary services around the Wessex/West of England/S.Wales area, so presumably/probably working alongside the XP64 stock at this time? And apparently withdrawn around the same time too.

The VCT register informs us that W13252 was claimed by the National Collection (NRM) for preservation in 1982 due to its historical significance, initially at York, then also at Swindon... but subsequently disposed of.. and now owned by the Mid-Norfolk Railway.. where it seems that asbestos content has also proved to be an issue... although restoration is said to have been completed between 2009 and 2011 and the vehicle is now not considered to be "at risk" (in contrast to the last pair(?) of XP64).

In terms of asbestos content, this was certainly an issue for the Swindon Inter-city dmu vehicles (developmental precursors to the Mk2 prototype) in the care of the SRPS (Brechin? Boness?), and it took a substantial Heritage Lottery Fund grant for restoration to be undertaken, and for asbestos and corrosion to be dealt with.

There is a very detailed and informative account on one of the SRPS pages relating to the restoration of the class 126 Swindon Inter-city dmu vehicles (sorry can't post link on this phone but it's worth seeking out, try class126.co.uk), that describes how structural box sections were incorporated into the design of the stressed-skin body sides to enable underframe trussing to be dispensed with.. such that the coach body became integral to the chassis and to the structural strength of the vehicle (unlike with traditional carriage building up to then, including the Mk1s, ie hefty underframes with a substantially lighter framed body fabricated on top)...

And that the same design principles and semi-integral methods were carried through into the Mk2 prototype.. which was actually built on the same jigs as the Swindon Inter-city (and Cross-country) dmus.

So asbestos content does not need to be the literal death-knell for preserved coaching stock if its historical significance can be recognised and acknowledged.. and the money and the will can be found...

With reference to your para 1 the 11.15 Paddington-Cardiff in the early seventies was regularly formed of at least four XP64 vehicles . I believe the circuit working was, Mon -Fris. 08.10 Cheltenham - Padd/ 11.15 Padd-Cardiff/16.15 or 15.25 Cardiff-Padd/19.25 Padd - Worcester. There's a picture ref. (plate 77) in 'Power of the Westerns ' of 1033 Western Trooper leaving Reading on the 11.15 ex Padd (incorrectly captioned as 11.05 Padd-Birmingham) & the leading vehicle is quite clearly XP64.

Wensleydale Ry · 21 Aug 2019

hi, we at Wensleydale Railway have the last 2 remaining xp64 coaches and had an asbestos survey done on them last year to see how extensive and how much it would cost to remove. The cost of restoration of each coach we have estimated to be in the region of £100k and wondered whether any of you know any suitable grant funds that may be interested in saving these last 2 coaches of their type?
thanks

LOL The Irony · 21 Aug 2019

Wensleydale Ry said:
hi, we at Wensleydale Railway have the last 2 remaining xp64 coaches and had an asbestos survey done on them last year to see how extensive and how much it would cost to remove. The cost of restoration of each coach we have estimated to be in the region of £100k and wondered whether any of you know any suitable grant funds that may be interested in saving these last 2 coaches of their type?
thanks

Crowd-sourcing?

Cowley · 21 Aug 2019

Wensleydale Ry said:
hi, we at Wensleydale Railway have the last 2 remaining xp64 coaches and had an asbestos survey done on them last year to see how extensive and how much it would cost to remove. The cost of restoration of each coach we have estimated to be in the region of £100k and wondered whether any of you know any suitable grant funds that may be interested in saving these last 2 coaches of their type?
thanks

Welcome to the forum WR.
Is it possible to apply for Heritage Lottery funding for a project like this? I would have thought that as time goes on they could be thought of as historically important, although I think it’s a very complicated process applying so it would definitely be worth talking to other groups that have taken the HL route to see what’s involved.
Various items of rolling stock have been restored this way over the years, but to receive funding it would have to be proved that your group is ultra professional and has a watertight business plan for a start.
As above though, crowd funding is another option but would no doubt take a lot longer.

Have you thought about looking into finding out if there are any people around that were involved in the original design and launch of them?

theblackwatch · 21 Aug 2019

I'm sure Nigel Park mentioned going to apply for lottery funding a few years back when Wensleydale acquired them from the NYMR. They last saw use in the early 90s.

I'm pretty sure 4729 still survives at the Dean Forest too (their FK was scrapped a few years ago).

gimmea50anyday · 21 Aug 2019

Why not give First group an approach. Think LNER offer something similar

https://tpexpress.co.uk/about-us/community/transform-grants

ForestRail · 22 Aug 2019

theblackwatch said:
I'm sure Nigel Park mentioned going to apply for lottery funding a few years back when Wensleydale acquired them from the NYMR. They last saw use in the early 90s.

I'm pretty sure 4729 still survives at the Dean Forest too (their FK was scrapped a few years ago).

Yes, it's still there

fireftrm · 22 Aug 2019

gimmea50anyday said:
Why not give First group an approach. Think LNER offer something similar

https://tpexpress.co.uk/about-us/community/transform-grants

Unfortunately this grant and many others will require that the project is able to: tackle youth unemployment, promote social inclusion and improve the environment. Restoring a carriage is unlikely to do any of these (especially social inclusion and environmental improvement) unless it employs local youths and at £5000 is not going to go far....

gimmea50anyday · 23 Aug 2019

No, but there may be other schemes the railway can put the funding to use. May as well give them the link and let them decide wether they fit the criteria

colchesterken · 25 Aug 2019

May be worth a Just Giving, or the like preferably one that takes the tax benefit of gift aid
The people looking after 4 VEP Gordon tried this they said they did not think they would get much as it is so specialist
but the raised £12500

37114 · 26 Aug 2019

fireftrm said:
Unfortunately this grant and many others will require that the project is able to: tackle youth unemployment, promote social inclusion and improve the environment. Restoring a carriage is unlikely to do any of these (especially social inclusion and environmental improvement) unless it employs local youths and at £5000 is not going to go far....

Good luck with the Endeavour, I have just made a model of W25508. 're Youth unemployment I would argue part of your plan could include using an apprentice to support the restoration and therefore teaching them new skills. I believe that the baby Deltic team did something similar last year to help them with some welding. There are other railway projects such a the Wickham DMU that secured HLF funding so it can be done.

fireftrm · 29 Aug 2019

37114 said:
Good luck with the Endeavour, I have just made a model of W25508. 're Youth unemployment I would argue part of your plan could include using an apprentice to support the restoration and therefore teaching them new skills. I believe that the baby Deltic team did something similar last year to help them with some welding. There are other railway projects such a the Wickham DMU that secured HLF funding so it can be done.

£5000 isn't going to help unless you are already employing the apprentice - if you're not then the apprentice is an extra cost and the grant is onloy going to reduce your costs of employing one!

TOPSman · 29 Jun 2020

A fatality at Gloucester on the morning of 23 Sept 2014 gave me the opportunity to pop out of my train at Lydney and take these photo's of XP64 Mk 1 TSO 4729 - in a sorry state unfortunately. An hour later I was on the move. (For the uninitiated this vehicle has Mk2 windows and seating)

Ash Bridge · 29 Jun 2020

Hi @TOPSman welcome to the forum. Many thanks for posting these shots; what a tragic sight to behold! I don't suppose there is much hope now for the long term future of W4729?

Cowley · 29 Jun 2020

Thanks for posting the photos @TOPSman, really interesting I must say and I’ll echo Mr Bridge and also say welcome to the forum.

37114 · 29 Jun 2020

I did read recently (Rail Express?) that there was a plan to try and raise some funds to get 4729 repaired so there may be some home for it.

gimmea50anyday · 30 Jun 2020

Did you post these on the coaching stock Facebook page too?

Rick1984 · 30 Jun 2020

British Pathé video mentioned a few pages ago. Doors wide enough for a fat man with 2 suitcases no less!

CW2 · 3 Jul 2020

I recall there was an experimental Lounge First vehicle used on the Oxford - Paddington commuter circuit for a time in the early 70s. The lounge took up about half the length of the carriage, and had rotating executive-style leather arnchairs. I think the remainder of the vehicle had 3 or 4 conventional compartments. Was this a member of the XP64 family, or something altogether different?

Ash Bridge · 3 Jul 2020

CW2 said:
I recall there was an experimental Lounge First vehicle used on the Oxford - Paddington commuter circuit for a time in the early 70s. The lounge took up about half the length of the carriage, and had rotating executive-style leather arnchairs. I think the remainder of the vehicle had 3 or 4 conventional compartments. Was this a member of the XP64 family, or something altogether different?

There were actually three of these constructed in total, and they were converted from MK1 corridor firsts. Having said that there were some design elements of the XP64 incorporated internally.

Stathern Jc · 5 Jul 2020

Ash Bridge said:
There were actually three of these constructed in total, and they were converted from MK1 corridor firsts. Having said that there were some design elements of the XP64 incorporated internally.

Thanks, that's really interesting.
I've a distant recollection of a childhood journey returning from St Pancras to Nottingham (late 60s?) in what I remember my Dad said was a "Lounge Car" that had been built to an experimental layout. I remember it being an extra bit special beyond the normal First Class coaches (travel there was a benefit of Dad working on the railway), with freestanding seats in a much larger compartment.
Being on the MML it probably wasn't new, I think it could have been moved across from the WCML.
I've often wondered what that had been, and whether it might have been part of the XP64 project.

Ash Bridge · 5 Jul 2020

Stathern Jc said:
Thanks, that's really interesting.
I've a distant recollection of a childhood journey returning from St Pancras to Nottingham (late 60s?) in what I remember my Dad said was a "Lounge Car" that had been built to an experimental layout. I remember it being an extra bit special beyond the normal First Class coaches (travel there was a benefit of Dad working on the railway), with freestanding seats in a much larger compartment.
Being on the MML it probably wasn't new, I think it could have been moved across from the WCML.
I've often wondered what that had been, and whether it might have been part of the XP64 project.

It's equally interesting to hear your recollections also! The information that I have to hand suggests that the first vehicle went into service on the Western Region with the XP64 set during 1967 with the other two following later that year on Kings Cross-Bradford and Glasgow-Lancashire workings, however there is an illustration of coach M14902 in a rake of mk1 stock at what to me definitely appears to be Nottingham Midland and dated 1969, so this seems to perfectly fit your distant memory?

delt1c · 16 Jul 2020

I have vague memory of traveling in one on the SVR in mid 70's. At the time what i noticed differnt was that the seats swivelled 180 %

Ash Bridge · 18 Jul 2020

delt1c said:
I have vague memory of traveling in one on the SVR in mid 70's. At the time what i noticed differnt was that the seats swivelled 180 %

Travelled on that one also about 30 years ago, but it's actually a MK1 vehicle built in (I think) 1958 by Gloucester RC&W Co.

delt1c · 19 Jul 2020

Ash Bridge said:
Travelled on that one also about 30 years ago, but it's actually a MK1 vehicle built in (I think) 1958 by Gloucester RC&W Co.

Thats the one. Great for scenic lines

edwin_m · 19 Jul 2020

I think I travelled on some sort of XP64 coach on the NYMR in the 1980s.

XP 64 coaches

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