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Government announces independent review into HS2 programme

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LNW-GW Joint

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For the Virgin Birmingham trains clogging up the station, why not just electrify to Wolverhamton (if its not already electrified?) and terminate them in Wolverhampton?

It already is electrified (since 1967!).
Extension to Shrewsbury would improve efficiency and emissions, though.
Shrewsbury DMUs clog up New St regularly, so do Worcester/Herefords despite wires to Bromsgrove.
 
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matacaster

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In terms of journeys to London, (which, to be honest, are the only terms that the DfT care about) I think the Eastern leg has the weakest case. However, it would be hugely beneficial to CrossCountry services to the north. So on the one hand the eastern leg would be relatively easy to cancel, but on the other hand it has the potential to completely transform travel in the East Midlands and Yorkshire. I believe it is also the leg which has the cheapest per-mile cost.

You could (sorry Mancs types) alternatively go via eastern route from Birmingham, a through station for Sheffield area and via a Leeds through station and terminate in Manchester!! Your note regarding the low cost of the eastern route would be borne out by a visit to the areas affected!
 

Bletchleyite

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Or maybe just not running 4-car sets to save the access charges.

There are very, very few 4-car sets running around now. Only against the flow and shoulder-peak. One good thing Abellio et al have done is to near enough wipe out weekend 4-car running, for instance. On a weekday there is still a fair bit but not enough units to wipe it out.

You could take all peak trains to 12 which would give you a bit of a capacity uplift (and I suspect will happen with the coming of the Aventras), but that will require Euston work - there aren't enough 12-car platforms, the "middle" ones of each group of 4 (4-7, 8-11 and 12-15) are 8-car.
 

Aictos

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No need for extra connections to Heathrow if the new runway gets cancelled and any extra flights are simply spread around other airports in the country which already have said capacity. Manchester has loads of spare capacity for example and if northerners are forced to go south, then it is only fair that southerners use Manchester rather than fouling up their own air quality.

Heathrow though isn’t in competition with Manchester or Birmingham but rather the likes of Paris, Madrid or Amsterdam for the long haul travellers, a extra runway would go a long way to ease capacity issues at Heathrow meaning room for more flights both UK only and International bound.
 

Glenn1969

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Not sure where the idea of NPR going through central Bradford has come from. Bradford could just be served by a parkway station fed by increased local infrastructure. I have heard it said however that NPR will effectively replace the Calder Valley route rather than the Huddersfield one
 

ABB125

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You could (sorry Mancs types) alternatively go via eastern route from Birmingham, a through station for Sheffield area and via a Leeds through station and terminate in Manchester!! Your note regarding the low cost of the eastern route would be borne out by a visit to the areas affected!
Or maybe eastern arm to Sheffield, then a split with one arm to Manchester (+Liverpool) and one to Leeds. This has the added benefit of building NPR in one go (via Sheffield!).
However it's probably best to stop the speculation.
 

matacaster

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Not sure where the idea of NPR going through central Bradford has come from. Bradford could just be served by a parkway station fed by increased local infrastructure. I have heard it said however that NPR will effectively replace the Calder Valley route rather than the Huddersfield one

The idea of going through central Bradford is the current requirement of the West Yorkshire councils (particularly Bradford!!!), there is even a mock up of the station on the internet. Whilst in principle it could make sense, sadly in practice its inordinately expensive and difficult to do and not even in a straight line between Leeds and Manchester. A parkway would be a more doable option, but hardly high speed on the old Bradford avoiding line around Bowling.
 

matacaster

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Or maybe eastern arm to Sheffield, then a split with one arm to Manchester (+Liverpool) and one to Leeds. This has the added benefit of building NPR in one go (via Sheffield!).
However it's probably best to stop the speculation.

Your probably right re the speculation, but can't resist Woodhead tunnel could be used on your suggestion above!!!
 

Glenn1969

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I live in the West Yorkshire conurbation and have only heard mention of an NPR stop in Bradford but not where it would be located
 

Snapper

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Those predicting that the review will see Hs2 scrapped need to look at who is on the review Ctte and how said Ctte is structured. Plus, there's no political advantage to scrapping it. The grassroots opposition to Hs2 has always been a tiny bunch of Nimbys who live very close to the route. But they have no political clout.
 

Neen Sollars

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I used to think HS2 was a good idea, until I realised it was going to cost well in excess of £100 million, and just transfer more wealth to the South East of England rather than the other way around. There can only be one logical decision from this review and that is to scrap HS2 from London to Birmingham. There may be a case for line from Euston to Old Oak Common and restoring the South Ruislip line. If anything HS2 should start at Birmingham Int and head north to Curzon Street and north to Leeds and Manchester. But the stupid out of town stations which serve no one should be reviewed. The line from Bham Intl to Curzon street should have four tracks with new stations to enable the local population (customers, fare paying passengers) to benefit from an enhanced service and their taxes.
As I stated on another thread, no sane Prime Minister when paper and pen is placed before him (her) is going to sign off this project.
 

GRALISTAIR

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0) Politician speak -WARNING - Grayling big mistake is Cancelling - never ever do that - postpone - what should have happened with ALL the cancelled schemes - POSTPONE
1) Get HS2 built to Birmingham - postpone the other bits
2) Electrify existing Birmingham-Derby-Sheffield-Leeds and York (seems like politicians are giving something and appearing Green and environmentalist)- takes care of phase 2B
3) Fill in electrify rest of MML
4) Announce completion of Northern Transpennine upgrade with electrification and NPR in the future to keep the north happy.

I just can not see a total cancellation - I think Boris is a bit more politically astute than Grayling. I doubt things will be cancelled merely postponed
 

Ianno87

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Those predicting that the review will see Hs2 scrapped need to look at who is on the review Ctte and how said Ctte is structured. Plus, there's no political advantage to scrapping it. The grassroots opposition to Hs2 has always been a tiny bunch of Nimbys who live very close to the route. But they have no political clout.

If anything, it's likely to make the benefits and opportunities of HS2 more clearly and objectively stated than they've ever been before.
 

HSTEd

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I used to think HS2 was a good idea, until I realised it was going to cost well in excess of £100 million, and just transfer more wealth to the South East of England rather than the other way around. There can only be one logical decision from this review and that is to scrap HS2 from London to Birmingham. There may be a case for line from Euston to Old Oak Common and restoring the South Ruislip line. If anything HS2 should start at Birmingham Int and head north to Curzon Street and north to Leeds and Manchester. But the stupid out of town stations which serve no one should be reviewed. The line from Bham Intl to Curzon street should have four tracks with new stations to enable the local population (customers, fare paying passengers) to benefit from an enhanced service and their taxes.
As I stated on another thread, no sane Prime Minister when paper and pen is placed before him (her) is going to sign off this project.
So build the parts of the line with the weakest business case?

What trains will run on this?
I very much doubt you will get more than two or three trains an hour onto the Phase 2 segments without the Phase 1 segment.
And what use is the New North Main Line line? It goes from nowhere to nowhere in modern railway terms. About the only purpose it could potentially serve would be closing Marylebone and transferring most of it's trains to Crossrail......
 

hwl

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No need for extra connections to Heathrow if the new runway gets cancelled and any extra flights are simply spread around other airports in the country which already have said capacity. Manchester has loads of spare capacity for example and if northerners are forced to go south, then it is only fair that southerners use Manchester rather than fouling up their own air quality.
The 40 year Gatwick Airport 2nd runway moratorium expires at Midnight tonight. Gatwick has fulfilled all the requirements for second runway under the agreement and in return all the local authority signatories have to support Gatwick' planning application when it goes in.
 

Taunton

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But the stupid out of town stations which serve no one should be reviewed.
I agree. Look at the places which have both central and out-of-town stations, with frequent services. There's Derby and Nottingham, both with good demand to London. And then there's East Midlands Parkway :(
 

irish_rail

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Those predicting that the review will see Hs2 scrapped need to look at who is on the review Ctte and how said Ctte is structured. Plus, there's no political advantage to scrapping it. The grassroots opposition to Hs2 has always been a tiny bunch of Nimbys who live very close to the route. But they have no political clout.
Nimbys? U mean the majority of the population? Like it or not HS2 is incredibly unpopular with the electorate , and it just jumped up 30 billion in price. I know Boris has a magic money tree but come on!!
 

hwl

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Those predicting that the review will see Hs2 scrapped need to look at who is on the review Ctte and how said Ctte is structured. Plus, there's no political advantage to scrapping it. The grassroots opposition to Hs2 has always been a tiny bunch of Nimbys who live very close to the route. But they have no political clout.
The problem is 2 Nimbys are on the panel...
 

Sceptre

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Shapps could find out the costs tomorrow.
Five, how would Shapps explain cancellation to the Mayors, and indeed the people, of Birmingham, Greater Manchester and Merseyside? But he won’t have to.

The Western arm may survive as a bribe to the likes of Street and Burnham. However, the Tories demonstrably don't give a **** about Yorkshire and will probably refuse to meet with Jarvis or the WYCA.

If he promises something better and more appealing to the people of those towns, then it'd be a vote winner there. HS2 will have very little benefit for huge numbers of locals in Manchester who desperately want better local services for commuting/shopping/schools, etc. Plans to improve the existing local public transport in the short term will make the locals far happier than a 10/15 year plan for high speed trains to London.

Leeds have been on the short end of "we have to cancel this but we promise we'll give you something better" since Eurostar Regional went down the pan.
 

GRALISTAIR

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I found this statement in the terms of reference from the DfT interesting

QUOTE whether and how the project could be reprioritised; in particular, whether and, if so how, Northern Powerhouse Rail (NPR) (including the common sections with HS2 Phase 2b) could be prioritised over delivering the southern sections of HS2 End quote

or electrify Birmingham-Derby-Sheffield-Leeds/York/Doncaster and the rest of the MML
 
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I found this statement in the terms of reference from the DfT interesting

QUOTE whether and how the project could be reprioritised; in particular, whether and, if so how, Northern Powerhouse Rail (NPR) (including the common sections with HS2 Phase 2b) could be prioritised over delivering the southern sections of HS2 End quote

or electrify Birmingham-Derby-Sheffield-Leeds/York/Doncaster and the rest of the MML

By the time NPR is ready to begin construction Phase 1 & 2a should be nearing completion.
 

matacaster

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0) Politician speak -WARNING - Grayling big mistake is Cancelling - never ever do that - postpone - what should have happened with ALL the cancelled schemes - POSTPONE
1) Get HS2 built to Birmingham - postpone the other bits
2) Electrify existing Birmingham-Derby-Sheffield-Leeds and York (seems like politicians are giving something and appearing Green and environmentalist)- takes care of phase 2B
3) Fill in electrify rest of MML
4) Announce completion of Northern Transpennine upgrade with electrification and NPR in the future to keep the north happy.

I just can not see a total cancellation - I think Boris is a bit more politically astute than Grayling. I doubt things will be cancelled merely postponed


That sounds like a fair summary of what will happen!
 

Neen Sollars

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By the time NPR is ready to begin construction Phase 1 & 2a should be nearing completion.
But in the meantime you try to deliver projects that are further along the planning line, and try to fast track where possible. East West Rail green light due in next four to six weeks, diggers in the ground by end of 2019, accelerate EWR and similar proven cost effective rail infrastructure projects, and dare I say road and air infrastructure too.
 

matacaster

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The 40 year Gatwick Airport 2nd runway moratorium expires at Midnight tonight. Gatwick has fulfilled all the requirements for second runway under the agreement and in return all the local authority signatories have to support Gatwick' planning application when it goes in.

That works for me!
 

matacaster

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The Western arm may survive as a bribe to the likes of Street and Burnham. However, the Tories demonstrably don't give a **** about Yorkshire and will probably refuse to meet with Jarvis or the WYCA.



Leeds have been on the short end of "we have to cancel this but we promise we'll give you something better" since Eurostar Regional went down the pan.

Burnham did himself no favours asking for Tunnel to Piccadilly and thereby holding up NPR.
 

433N

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This is probably just a review to make sure that it is now all Boris Johnson's mates that get the contracts rather than Theresa May's mates.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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This is probably just a review to make sure that it is now all Boris Johnson's mates that get the contracts rather than Theresa May's mates.

Government contracting doesn't work like that, as you probably well know.
Most of the contracts are with international joint ventures, not jobbing builders.
The money mostly ends up in the pockets of the workers actually doing the work, as in projects like Crossrail.
 
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