SWR Strike Action: Strikes every day in December except 1st, 12th, 25th & 26th

Goldfish62 · 20 Aug 2019

infobleep said:
What I find is that people are standing by the door and not pressing the door release button to open them. They are expecting a tube style of operation where the doors open automatically. This must surely delay services, as it impedes swift entries and exits. The other day I was standing behind someone and had to press the button because they were just standing there with their suitcase. Other times people have pressed it but there has been a delay.

What do you propose to deal with that if time is so critical?

All-doors automated opening in the inner suburban area. All doors opening already occurs in the Thameslink core and will become automated once ATO is switched open.

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infobleep · 21 Aug 2019

Goldfish62 said:
All-doors automated opening in the inner suburban area. All doors opening already occurs in the Thameslink core and will become automated once ATO is switched open.

Does that mean trains from London to Weymouth, Poole etc will get automatic door opening or are you just talking about Thameslink?

With more other rolling stock having automatic door opening, this might lead to more people expecting the doors to open for them.

Of course there is the reverse. Someone leaves there bike against a door and then it opens up, due to doors opening up on a different side to the one they got on and bike falls out. Serves them right for leaving their bike against the door but may also delay the train.

Goldfish62 · 21 Aug 2019

infobleep said:
Does that mean trains from London to Weymouth, Poole etc will get automatic door opening or are you just talking about Thameslink?

With more other rolling stock having automatic door opening, this might lead to more people expecting the doors to open for them.

Of course there is the reverse. Someone leaves there bike against a door and then it opens up, due to doors opening up on a different side to the one they got on and bike falls out. Serves them right for leaving their bike against the door but may also delay the train.

No, I'm just talking about implementing on the inner suburban area where station dwell times are critical to providing an intensive service. All doors opening has been implemented on Thameslink for ages now and I'm not aware of issues with bikes falling on to platforms or passengers thinking that doors will open automatically at Wivelsfield.

Dstock7080 · 21 Aug 2019

infobleep said:
They are expecting a tube style of operation where the doors open automatically.

Train doors on LU rolling Stock are currently released by the driver in all cases. More modern Stock has the ability for auto-release but this has not yet be activated.

Goldfish62 · 21 Aug 2019

Dstock7080 said:
Train doors on LU rolling Stock are currently released by the driver in all cases. More modern Stock has the ability for auto-release but this has not yet be activated.

It makes a lot of sense at busy stations. LU implemented it because as the tube got busier it helped station dwell times. You do sometimes get door release only on the outer reaches of the Met, and of course it applies at all termini on the sub surface network to help the HVAC.

infobleep · 21 Aug 2019

Goldfish62 said:
No, I'm just talking about implementing on the inner suburban area where station dwell times are critical to providing an intensive service. All doors opening has been implemented on Thameslink for ages now and I'm not aware of issues with bikes falling on to platforms or passengers thinking that doors will open automatically at Wivelsfield.

Thameslink doesn't just serve inner suburban. I would have assumed dwell times are a problem outside of the inner surbaban too but perhaps not. I mean during parts of the morning there are 22 trains through Clapham Junction on the fast lines. Whilst these trains don't stop there, they do stop elsewhere and would surely need to be on time through Clapham Junction to avoid delays to other services.

Also fast trains mostly use platform 1 at Surbtion and that is used by stopping trains. Dwell on a fast train, e. g. train from Alton to Waterloo, could affect a stopping train, suchas Guildford to Waterloo. Those are often late departing Surbtion as there is only a three minute gap between services.

If any or all of those trains do not have automatic door opening then they can delay other trains.

I'm not actually adverse to the driver opening the doors. My issue is ensuring there is a guard on all trains who is fully safety trained. However if we are looking at drivers to save time with doors then surely they also need to look at passengers.

infobleep · 21 Aug 2019

Goldfish62 said:
It makes a lot of sense at busy stations. LU implemented it because as the tube got busier it helped station dwell times. You do sometimes get door release only on the outer reaches of the Met, and of course it applies at all termini on the sub surface network to help the HVAC.

What does HAVC stand for?

swt_passenger · 21 Aug 2019

infobleep said:
What does HAVC stand for?

Heating Ventilation and Air Conditioning (HVAC) is a widely used term, not just on the railway.

Goldfish62 · 21 Aug 2019

infobleep said:
Thameslink doesn't just serve inner suburban.

I know Thameslink doesn't just serve the inner suburban. I've used it God knows how many times to places such as Gatwick and Cambridge. Just to reiterate, all doors opening only takes place in the central core. When ATO is finally switched on December the opening will be taken out of the driver's hands. Away from the central core the normal driver release/close will continue to apply.

infobleep · 21 Aug 2019

Goldfish62 said:
I know Thameslink doesn't just serve the inner suburban. I've used it God knows how many times to places such as Gatwick and Cambridge. Just to reiterate, all doors opening only takes place in the central core. When ATO is finally switched on December the opening will be taken out of the driver's hands. Away from the central core the normal driver release/close will continue to apply.

OK. I thought you meant it would occur everywhere from December and not just the core.

swt_passenger said:
Heating Ventilation and Air Conditioning (HVAC) is a widely used term, not just on the railway.

Thanks

theironroad · 21 Aug 2019

Goldfish62 said:
All-doors automated opening in the inner suburban area. All doors opening already occurs in the Thameslink core and will become automated once ATO is switched open.

It's one think having all doors auto open in the TL core or central tube tunnels, not sure how it'd be popular in the middle of the day, in the middle of winter having every door open unnecessarily to allow plenty of freezing air in, the opposite in summer.

DMS2019 · 22 Aug 2019

If there is a strike on 30th August to 2nd September. How many days before the strike would they release a schedule for trains etc on their official website? It currently states 'we're currently planning the train service day' for all the days, and the strikes are in a week.. Ish.

Goldfish62 · 22 Aug 2019

theironroad said:
It's one think having all doors auto open in the TL core or central tube tunnels, not sure how it'd be popular in the middle of the day, in the middle of winter having every door open unnecessarily to allow plenty of freezing air in, the opposite in summer.

If combined with short station dwell times then I doubt if anyone would complain. I do think we're clutching at straws here in trying to find reasons why it's not a good idea.

kristiang85 · 22 Aug 2019

DMS2019 said:
If there is a strike on 30th August to 2nd September. How many days before the strike would they release a schedule for trains etc on their official website? It currently states 'we're currently planning the train service day' for all the days, and the strikes are in a week.. Ish.

They usually release 2 days before, but I remember one of the recent strikes it was only the day before.

DMS2019 · 22 Aug 2019

kristiang85 said:
They usually release 2 days before, but I remember one of the recent strikes it was only the day before.

Thanks, will keep an eye out!

infobleep · 22 Aug 2019

Hopefully this time they will update the travel advise so that there is a section to cover passengers who would usually travel on the Guildford to Farnham services, as well as Guildford to Ascot services and Aldershot to Ascot services.

bb21 · 22 Aug 2019

Aldershot - Ascot is buses 1bph.
Aldershot - Guildford use local buses.
Aldershot - Alton 1tph weekdays, 2bph Saturday only (possession).

Sunday still to be formulated.

infobleep · 22 Aug 2019

bb21 said:
Aldershot - Ascot is buses 1bph.
Aldershot - Guildford use local buses.
Aldershot - Alton 1tph weekdays, 2bph Saturday only (possession).

Sunday still to be formulated.

Thanks for that. I know Aldershot to Farnham will be train, so passengers will just change on route.

My point was more about the fact that previously they had no heading for Guildford to Farnham services but did have one for Guildford to Ascot services, despite the strike occurring on days when there are no longer any Guildford to Ascot services running. The services starting from Aldershot instead.

I'm aware it was shortly after the new services to Farnham came in to existing and perhaps they had no time to update the advice.

Hopefully, given the gap since then, they will have had time to or will have time to make changes and introduce a new section covering Guildford to Farnham services. As this strike also covers Sunday they will still need a Guildford to Ascot section for that day.

Ethano92 · 22 Aug 2019

Domeyhead said:
On the line between SOuthampton and Portsmouth SWR and SOuthern trains work side by side and many passengers for stations between Soton and Cosham use either and get a chance to compare the impact of working methods. I have noticed that on the SOuthern Electrostars the station stop is prompt, the doors (usually) are unlocked with tube style efficiency and passengers (dis)embark quickly and safely. On SWR Desiros there is a pause of several seconds while some unknown process is enacted before the doors are finally released. Whatever is occurring does NOT make the passengers any safer - the passengers are more at risk of losing their balance as those behind them sometimes assume those in front have not pressed the door open button! THe reason I mention this on this thread is the constant fallacy of the RMT using "passenger safety" as an apparent justification. No it isn't. Passengers are at least as safe on Southern provided on board staff are present. Strike if you must but don't use me and my fellow travellers as a bargaining tool. WHat passengers want is a reassuring presence of on board staff, so no problem with that - but "safety". It's a red herring, so leave it out. We know why it is used as justification but it's a fallacy. This is not a safety issue, it's about jobs. We aren't stupid.

Repeat of the whole Southern dispute. On the BML Thameslink trains ran on the same lines and called at the same platforms as Southern trains the whole time DOO, as they do now yet as soon as a train was branded Southern insted, suddenly a 2nd member of staff onboard became 'safety critical' which is my biggest issue with RMT. That term 'saftey critical' suggests to the uninformed just that; that a guard on board is critical to a passengers safety which simply isn't true. Otherwise I think the DFT would need to have a chat with EVERY other suburban operator in London...

If they were fighting this battle over accessibility concerns for those that need assistance boarding I'd be with them (all new trains should be specified to the spec of low floor FLIRTS rather than it be just a choice) however this isn't what RMT have chosen to hound on us, they've instead chosen to repeat that guards are critical to passenger safety and I can't support a group that tells a blatant lie such as that. It's the word critical that's the issue.

infobleep said:
What I find is that people are standing by the door and not pressing the door release button to open them. They are expecting a tube style of operation where the doors open automatically. This must surely delay services, as it impedes swift entries and exits. The other day I was standing behind someone and had to press the button because they were just standing there with their suitcase. Other times people have pressed it but there has been a delay.

What do you propose to deal with that if time is so critical?

I'm sure the 701s will have likely an identical door setup to the 710s. If everyone standing within easy acces to the 3 door open buttons genuinely fail to press the bright green flashing button within >3seconds of the start of the door alarm then a) I despair and b) anyone remember the old 'the door buttons are now activated' announcements on the 458s. Either way, still faster than my guard that consistently took >8 seconds to release the doors at each station in comparison to <4 seconds when I changed to thameslink.

theironroad · 22 Aug 2019

Goldfish62 said:
If combined with short station dwell times then I doubt if anyone would complain. I do think we're clutching at straws here in trying to find reasons why it's not a good idea.

Not clutching at straws, one of the reasons that modern trains have an auto door close function after no activity detected is to preserve the AC/heating environment.
Not sure where you commute from, but having all doors pinging opening on a cold, windy day in middle of winter in the countryside would be seriously annoying.

I've no problem with an auto-release system, but auto-opening outside of central urban cores is totally unnecessary.

infobleep · 23 Aug 2019

Ethano92 said:
Repeat of the whole Southern dispute. On the BML Thameslink trains ran on the same lines and called at the same platforms as Southern trains the whole time DOO, as they do now yet as soon as a train was branded Southern insted, suddenly a 2nd member of staff onboard became 'safety critical' which is my biggest issue with RMT. That term 'saftey critical' suggests to the uninformed just that; that a guard on board is critical to a passengers safety which simply isn't true. Otherwise I think the DFT would need to have a chat with EVERY other suburban operator in London...

If they were fighting this battle over accessibility concerns for those that need assistance boarding I'd be with them (all new trains should be specified to the spec of low floor FLIRTS rather than it be just a choice) however this isn't what RMT have chosen to hound on us, they've instead chosen to repeat that guards are critical to passenger safety and I can't support a group that tells a blatant lie such as that. It's the word critical that's the issue.

I'm sure the 701s will have likely an identical door setup to the 710s. If everyone standing within easy acces to the 3 door open buttons genuinely fail to press the bright green flashing button within >3seconds of the start of the door alarm then a) I despair and b) anyone remember the old 'the door buttons are now activated' announcements on the 458s. Either way, still faster than my guard that consistently took >8 seconds to release the doors at each station in comparison to <4 seconds when I changed to thameslink.

To be fair I don't care who opens the doors. I only mention passengers because people seem so concerned about dwell time and not all of it is guard lead dwell time.

I'm sure trains would be much faster without passengers. Only problem then is that there wouldn't be a need for the trains.

Back to the guards though, I would rather have a safety critical guard on the train. Yes I do travel on trains without one but I'd rather they had one too.

We shall of course have to disagree.

Goldfish62 · 23 Aug 2019

theironroad said:
Not clutching at straws, one of the reasons that modern trains have an auto door close function after no activity detected is to preserve the AC/heating environment.
Not sure where you commute from, but having all doors pinging opening on a cold, windy day in middle of winter in the countryside would be seriously annoying.

I've no problem with an auto-release system, but auto-opening outside of central urban cores is totally unnecessary.

I never suggested it outside of the inner suburban area.

ainsworth74 · 23 Aug 2019

We're not rehashing the same old tired debates around DOO such as the perennial favourite "Is it the best thing since sliced bread or is it an idea straight from the desk of Mr Satan CEO of Hell Inc?" or similar such classics around door opening and closing or who is in charge of what part of opening/closing doors and managing the platform train interface, etc etc. Please leave it there as any further such posts are liable for deletion.

Twotwo · 23 Aug 2019

Are the guards striking over their job security or about the hours? I'm sure one of the dispute is to do with the hours they work? It's quite shocking they have a 42 hour contract in comparison to other guards/train managers/obs from other tocs.

pompeyfan · 23 Aug 2019

Twotwo said:
Are the guards striking over their job security or about the hours? I'm sure one of the dispute is to do with the hours they work? It's quite shocking they have a 42 hour contract in comparison to other guards/train managers/obs from other tocs.

The strike is solely around trying to encourage SWR to keep operating procedure for the 701s as is for all the rest of the fleet.

SWR have actually moved away from the idea of running services DOO in exceptional circumstances. I think internal politics has a lot to do with it too.

Regarding a 42 hour week, you’re correct in that it is excessive. Southern OBS and conductors are both on 37.5h weeks for £35k a year. SWR are 39k commercial for 42h average.

Goldfish62 · 23 Aug 2019

pompeyfan said:
The strike is solely around trying to encourage SWR to keep operating procedure for the 701s as is for all the rest of the fleet.

SWR have actually moved away from the idea of running services DOO in exceptional circumstances. I think internal politics has a lot to do with it too.

Regarding a 42 hour week, you’re correct in that it is excessive. Southern OBS and conductors are both on 37.5h weeks for £35k a year. SWR are 39k commercial for 42h average.

What do non-commercial guards earn? Also, what's the ratio of commercial / non-commercial? The inner suburban and Windsor lines, in my experience, are mostly non-commercial.

Twotwo · 23 Aug 2019

Goldfish62 said:
What do non-commercial guards earn? Also, what's the ratio of commercial / non-commercial? The inner suburban and Windsor lines, in my experience, are mostly non-commercial.

Their on about 33k plus regional allowance so if your based in London around £1998 extra.

Ethano92 · 23 Aug 2019

Would it not be in SWRs best interest to turn all guards commercial so ticket checks (well contactless checks mostly) could be done on every service that isn't crush loaded without the need to hire agency staff?

Bletchleyite · 23 Aug 2019

Ethano92 said:
Would it not be in SWRs best interest to turn all guards commercial so ticket checks (well contactless checks mostly) could be done on every service that isn't crush loaded without the need to hire agency staff?

I would agree, I cannot see any sense in non-commercial guards other than in a niche scenario like Caledonian Sleeper. While there would be a personal safety risk of having them do PFs (see the Merseyrail dispute) simply checking, even if they take no action as a result of the checks, is a visible deterrent.

As an example, LNR have staffed barriers for near enough the full period of service using contract security guards who have no revenue training and can't do anything other than ask the passenger to go to the TVM and pay[1], but this does get rid of the "pay when challenged" approach which is the most common form of fare evasion by providing that challenge.

[1] Unlike Northern they don't seem to have attempted to (poorly) revenue train them, and I don't believe they are PF trained either.

Carlisle · 23 Aug 2019

Bletchleyite said:
I would agree, I cannot see any sense in non-commercial guards other than in a niche scenario like Caledonian Sleeper.

Agreed, but in practice since the ending of the Southern dispute there’s almost no evidence to suggest another TOC is willing to risk disagreement with the unions on the scale that would currently be required to actually implement such a change.
leadership appears seriously lacking from the industry side and I believe is now the primary reason behind these continued strikes,

SWR Strike Action: Strikes every day in December except 1st, 12th, 25th & 26th

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