Manchester to St Pancras in 1972?

Robin Saunter · 5 Aug 2019

I visited Manchester from Bedford twice in 1972 and remember leaving Manchester at about 18:00 and arriving in Bedford just after 22:00. I'm sure it was the same train all the way, but having just walked the trackbed of the Bakewell to Buxton line I realise that that couldn't have been the route. I know the service called at New Mills, so could the route have been via Edale and Dronfield? Sorry for the vague details! Anyone have a BR
timetable for 1972?

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Dr Hoo · 5 Aug 2019

Regular services ran via the Hope Valley and Dore South Curve for quite a few years after closure of the Bakewell line, so 'yes'.
(Buxton was generally served as a branch from Millers Dale or by local trains from Chinley rather than being on the main St Pancras-Manchester route).

Robin Saunter · 5 Aug 2019

Dr Hoo said:
Regular services ran via the Hope Valley and Dore South Curve for quite a few years after closure of the Bakewell line, so 'yes'.
(Buxton was generally served as a branch from Millers Dale or by local trains from Chinley rather than being on the main St Pancras-Manchester route).

Many thanks for that. Another railway puzzle solved.

alistairlees · 6 Aug 2019

In the May 1972 timetable there is an 1809 Manchester piccadilly to London st Pancras service arriving at Bedford at 22.14.

Calls at New Mills Central, Chinley, Chesterfield, Derby, Leicester and all main stations on the main line to st Pancras.

16 minutes waiting time at derby and 20 more at Leicester! Lots at all stations in fact, probably for parcels.

Robin Saunter · 6 Aug 2019

alistairlees said:
In the May 1972 timetable there is an 1809 Manchester piccadilly to London st Pancras service arriving at Bedford at 22.14.

Calls at New Mills Central, Chinley, Chesterfield, Derby, Leicester and all main stations on the main line to st Pancras.

16 minutes waiting time at derby and 20 more at Leicester! Lots at all stations in fact, probably for parcels.

Yes, that's the one! I remember the long waits at several stations, sitting alone in my darkened Mk1 compartment. Many thanks for digging that info up. It was wintertime on both trips so saw nothing of the Derbyshire scenery. Thanks again!

alistairlees · 6 Aug 2019

Robin Saunter said:
Yes, that's the one! I remember the long waits at several stations, sitting alone in my darkened Mk1 compartment. Many thanks for digging that info up. It was wintertime on both trips so saw nothing of the Derbyshire scenery. Thanks again!

No problem.

70014IronDuke · 6 Aug 2019

alistairlees said:
In the May 1972 timetable there is an 1809 Manchester piccadilly to London st Pancras service arriving at Bedford at 22.14.

Calls at New Mills Central, Chinley, Chesterfield, Derby, Leicester and all main stations on the main line to st Pancras.

16 minutes waiting time at derby and 20 more at Leicester! Lots at all stations in fact, probably for parcels.

IIRC, this was the last up Class 1 train of the day. Ddn't it arrive at Leicester c 20.50 to be overtaken by a Sheffield via Nottingham, Luton (s) and St Pancras?

Robin Saunter said:
I visited Manchester from Bedford twice in 1972 and remember leaving Manchester at about 18:00 and arriving in Bedford just after 22:00. I'm sure it was the same train all the way, but having just walked the trackbed of the Bakewell to Buxton line I realise that that couldn't have been the route. I know the service called at New Mills, so could the route have been via Edale and Dronfield? Sorry for the vague details! Anyone have a BR
timetable for 1972?

After the Peak Forest route closed to passengers in June (?) 68, the remaining St Pancras - Man Picc trains were routed north of Derby via Chesterfield and the Hope Valley. Invariably a Cl 45 and 7 or 8 Mk 1s. I think there were four trains a day, usually at four hourly intervals, although early morning out of St Pancras there was an 06.50 (about 07.40 ex Bedford) and an 08.25 (about 09.15). You probably caught one of these to Manchester?

These loco-hauled trins were supplemented by Nottingham - Man Picc DMUs. I think they went up the Erewash rather than via Derby.
I'm not sure when the St Pancras - Man Picc service was finally withdrawn - late 70s? I remember when I went on them they were generally not well filled.

alistairlees · 6 Aug 2019

70014IronDuke said:
IIRC, this was the last up Class 1 train of the day. Ddn't it arrive at Leicester c 20.50 to be overtaken by a Sheffield via Nottingham, Luton (s) and St Pancras?

Yes, it was caught and overtaken by a Leeds - Bristol TM at Derby, then by a Sheffield - St Pancras via Nottingham at Leicester. Both connections for parcels I imagine. In fact it was also possible to connect with the Sheffield - St Pancras at Chesterfield!

Ash Bridge · 6 Aug 2019

70014IronDuke said:
IIRC, this was the last up Class 1 train of the day. Ddn't it arrive at Leicester c 20.50 to be overtaken by a Sheffield via Nottingham, Luton (s) and St Pancras?

After the Peak Forest route closed to passengers in June (?) 68, the remaining St Pancras - Man Picc trains were routed north of Derby via Chesterfield and the Hope Valley. Invariably a Cl 45 and 7 or 8 Mk 1s. I think there were four trains a day, usually at four hourly intervals, although early morning out of St Pancras there was an 06.50 (about 07.40 ex Bedford) and an 08.25 (about 09.15). You probably caught one of these to Manchester?

These loco-hauled trins were supplemented by Nottingham - Man Picc DMUs. I think they went up the Erewash rather than via Derby.
I'm not sure when the St Pancras - Man Picc service was finally withdrawn - late 70s? I remember when I went on them they were generally not well filled.

My memory is also suggesting towards the end of the 70s. We used the 08:00? Manchester Picc-St Pancras several times during 1973/74 for trips over to Toton, performing a quick change at Chesterfield to pick up a normally Peak hauled following service to take us on to Nottingham. I remember them as a class 45 with all mk1 compartment stock with no buffet and never a problem getting a whole compartment to yourself. Going slightly off topic, there was a derailment in Totley Tunnel some years ago involving loco hauled stock, was it not involving this service?

70014IronDuke · 6 Aug 2019

alistairlees said:
Yes, it was caught and overtaken by a Leeds - Bristol TM at Derby, then by a Sheffield - St Pancras via Nottingham at Leicester. Both connections for parcels I imagine.

Well, the cross platform change at Leicester was mainly for passengers. It allowed an hourly connection into and our of the express with the semi fast to everywhere, ie the main stations south of Leicester.

alistairlees said:
In fact it was also possible to connect with the Sheffield - St Pancras at Chesterfield!

Indeed. There was an even more bizarre connection possible in the down direction in the morning. The 08.20 (or 08.25?) ex St Pancras - Man Picc semi fast waited for the Thames-Clyde (08.50?) to overtake it at Leicester.
The TCE duly arrived, stopped 3-4 minutes and roared off behind its Cl 45, to be followed by the semi-fast, which stopped at Loughborough and took the Derby line at Trent.
But because the TCE reversed at Nottingham and then took the Erewash (replete with numerous PSRs from subsidence) northwards, the semi-fast beat the TCE to Chesterfield.
I never heard the announcer suggest passengers should change into the semi-fast at Leicester though!

mailbyrail · 6 Aug 2019

Checking the May 77 to May 78 timetable shows StPancras to Manchester Piccadilly through trains only on Sundays, nothing Mon-Sat.
Two trains each way on Sundays but all via Sheffield and Derby

alistairlees · 6 Aug 2019

Back to the May 1972 timetable. The only other train from Manchester Piccadilly to London St Pancras (besides the 18.09 departure from Man P) on 'Weekdays' (which meant Mondays to Saturdays) was:

08.01 d. Manchester Piccadilly
08.22 d. New Mills Central
09.10 d. Chesterfield
09.41 a. Derby
09.45 d. Derby
10.03 d. Loughborough
10.17 a. Leicester
10.35 d. Leicester
10.52 d. Market Harborough
11.06 d. Kettering for Corby
11.15 d. Wellingborough
11.37 d. Bedford Midland Road
11.57 a. Luton
12.08 a. St Albans City
12.32 a. St Pancras

At Leicester it was overtaken by a Sheffield - St Pancras service.

The 18.09 from Manchester Piccadilly to St Pancras also called at Chinley.

On Sundays there were still two direct Manchester Piccadilly to St Pancras trains, but they ran a bit later and went via Sheffield.

Northbound trains to Manchester left St Pancras at 06.50 and 18.25 on weekdays.

GusB · 6 Aug 2019

Ash Bridge said:
My memory is also suggesting towards the end of the 70s. We used the 08:00? Manchester Picc-St Pancras several times during 1973/74 for trips over to Toton, performing a quick change at Chesterfield to pick up a normally Peak hauled following service to take us on to Nottingham. I remember them as a class 45 with all mk1 compartment stock with no buffet and never a problem getting a whole compartment to yourself. Going slightly off topic, there was a derailment in Totley Tunnel some years ago involving loco hauled stock, was it not involving this service?

Would this be the derailment in question?
http://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/eventsummary.php?eventID=1355

"There is no doubt that this derailment was caused by the fracture of an adjustment switch rail at its 'running-on' end as the passenger train passed over it, as a result of which the whole rail end disintegrated. While it is impossible to be certain of the exact course of the derailment, it seems likely that the fracture took place under the locomotive but did not derail it; the driver stated that the locomotive gave a "severe lurch" and the secondman said there was a "terrific bump". It is probable that the leading bogie of the first coach became derailed after it had struck and displaced the switch rail which was only held in position by the sleeper fastenings, the running-off end being free to slide against the other switch rail. All the other bogies of the train then followed the first bogie into derailment."

Ash Bridge · 7 Aug 2019

GusB said:
Would this be the derailment in question?
http://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/eventsummary.php?eventID=1355

Many thanks for this Gus, that has to be the one. I remembered it was a Peak and mk1 coaches involved but never would have said it was that long ago, could have sworn it was late 70s.

70014IronDuke · 7 Aug 2019

alistairlees said:
Back to the May 1972 timetable. The only other train from Manchester Piccadilly to London St Pancras (besides the 18.09 departure from Man P) on 'Weekdays' (which meant Mondays to Saturdays) was:

08.01 d. Manchester Piccadilly
08.22 d. New Mills Central....

Gosh, I somehow missed that they'd cut these services back by 1972 to just two trains a day. But thinking about it, I don't think I went to Manchester from Derby after 1971. Hmmm. I did once. In 74. Can't remember how I got there now though.

alistairlees said:
On Sundays there were still two direct Manchester Piccadilly to St Pancras trains, but they ran a bit later and went via Sheffield.

Northbound trains to Manchester left St Pancras at 06.50 and 18.25 on weekdays.

So the Sunday services then reversed in Sheffield? (Or ran round via the old road, perhaps'??)

Anyone got a 1971 timetable? I'm pretty sure there 4 trains a day still then, at least in the summer. But .... it was a long time ago!

70014IronDuke · 7 Aug 2019

GusB said:
Would this be the derailment in question?
http://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/eventsummary.php?eventID=1355

That just shows the power of modern media. That was a Monday. I travelled through Sheffield the day before that derailment (not on the Hope Valley though) but would surely have noted it had i known about it. Instead, I suspect it just made a small news item in Modern Railways - probably the July issue, which would have been published a month later.

alistairlees · 7 Aug 2019

70014IronDuke said:
Anyone got a 1971 timetable? I'm pretty sure there 4 trains a day still then, at least in the summer. But .... it was a long time ago!

I don't have a 1971 timetable, though I do have a 1970 one. This shows four trains from Manchester Piccadilly to St Pancras on weekdays (so your memory is correct!) plus four trains from Manchester Piccadilly to Nottingham (via Derby) on weekdays. All eight went via the Totley curve.

Manchester departures:
07.00 to Nottingham
08.01 to St Pancras
09.43 to Nottingham
12.00 to St Pancras
13.54 to Nottingham
16.16 to St Pancras
18.09 to St Pancras
20.48 to Nottingham

All the St Pancras ones were stoppers from Leicester - passengers to London were meant to go on the electric services to Euston of course, this was just to connect intermediate stations.

Journey time to Nottingham was 2h 12m to 2h 36m; and to St Pancras 4h 17m to 5h 5m (for the 18.09).

Mark62 · 22 Aug 2019

I remember travelling from Derby to Manchester via door curve on the London to Manchester trains. It was usually a peak with around 7 mk 1 stock. Often these were entirely first class corridor stock. Back then very few loco hauled trains rain down the hope valley.
I remember the peak hammering through Totley tunnel with the throttle wide open. I had the window open in the front coach
Fond memories

jfollows · 22 Aug 2019

70014IronDuke said:
I'm not sure when the St Pancras - Man Picc service was finally withdrawn - late 70s? I remember when I went on them they were generally not well filled.

I think, from memory, the through passenger weekday services were withdrawn very soon after 1972, because by September 1973 I was a regular user of the 16:12 departure from Manchester Piccadilly platform 10 (for Poynton) and by then there was still an 18:09 (ish) departure for Saint Pancras from platform 11 which had been demoted to be a parcels train only. There was a road between platforms 10 & 11 at Piccadilly and it was used to deliver parcels for the train.

As others have posted, through passenger services continued to run for a number of years through the 1970s on a Sunday only, reversing at Sheffield Midland. Some Sundays they were diesel-hauled through Woodhead, and then reversed at Nunnery Sidings or somewhere like that.

jfollows · 22 Aug 2019

Thinking on it, the weekday passenger services may have been axed in the major timetable rewrite for May 1974 which introduced hourly services Manchester-Euston, so the Saint Pancras services may have lasted until then.

Mark62 · 22 Aug 2019

From memory, there was a Derby to Manchester on Saturdays leaving around 9am. This ran via Dore curve until mid 70s.
Somewhere I have got the original br timetables from 74 onwards.
I remember the Sunday services via woodhead. They had around 100 mins for the journey to Sheffield via Woodhead
I don't know if its still there but there used to be a shop in Haworth that sold old timtables. I remember buying a marvellous great central tt from 59

jfollows · 22 Aug 2019

Mark62 said:
I remember the Sunday services via woodhead. They had around 100 mins for the journey to Sheffield via Woodhead

The engine had to run round the stock in Sheffield, so the timetable accounted for this I think.
Best ever for me was when the service went Manchester-Sheffield over Woodhead one Sunday, then as far as Bedford before taking the line to Bletchley, where the diesel engine was replaced by (I think) a Class 85 electric for the run into Euston. This would have been in the late 1970s.

Altfish · 22 Aug 2019

When the Trent Valley 4 Track works on the WCML were being carried out in about 2001/2 (IIRC) there were some services from Piccadilly to St Pancras, again using the Dore chord to avoid Sheffield. I did it once.

Mark62 · 22 Aug 2019

I'm envious. I only did it once over woodhead on a Sunday on a 101.i remember it absolutely hammering all the way into Manchester from the tilunnel. My dad was a fireman at woodhead and often took them over tender first in winter in the early hours. Awful job and hard work

alistairlees · 22 Aug 2019

Altfish said:
When the Trent Valley 4 Track works on the WCML were being carried out in about 2001/2 (IIRC) there were some services from Piccadilly to St Pancras, again using the Dore chord to avoid Sheffield. I did it once.

Operation Rio.

Ash Bridge · 22 Aug 2019

jfollows said:
Thinking on it, the weekday passenger services may have been axed in the major timetable rewrite for May 1974 which introduced hourly services Manchester-Euston, so the Saint Pancras services may have lasted until then.

Actually I think it lasted a little later than that as I'm rather sure I used the 08:01 Piccadilly-St Pancras in July or August of that year travelling as far as Chesterfield changing there from Nottingham. I have a copy of the 1974 timetable though not immediately to hand but will check later to see if my memory is correct.

Altfish said:
When the Trent Valley 4 Track works on the WCML were being carried out in about 2001/2 (IIRC) there were some services from Piccadilly to St Pancras, again using the Dore chord to avoid Sheffield. I did it once.

I too used this service back in June 2004. It was interesting passing via Reddish North and Marple on a HST, what did surprise me though was that it also routed via the Erewash Valley Line. Not certain if this was a regular occurrence?

Mark62 said:
I'm envious. I only did it once over woodhead on a Sunday on a 101.i remember it absolutely hammering all the way into Manchester from the tilunnel. My dad was a fireman at woodhead and often took them over tender first in winter in the early hours. Awful job and hard work

Well I'm envious of both of you, as I never managed to traverse the Woodhead line aboard any type of traction, something I always longed to do but sadly never managed.

jfollows · 22 Aug 2019

Ash Bridge said:
I too used this service back in June 2004. It was interesting passing via Reddish North and Marple on a HST, what did surprise me though was that it also routed via the Erewash Valley Line. Not certain if this was a regular occurrence?

Project Rio usually went via Stockport and definitely Erewash Valley and Toton Yard. I did it once.

70014IronDuke · 22 Aug 2019

jfollows said:
Thinking on it, the weekday passenger services may have been axed in the major timetable rewrite for May 1974 which introduced hourly services Manchester-Euston, so the Saint Pancras services may have lasted until then.

You may be correct with the year, but the withdrawal of the Man Pic - St Pancras trains had nothing to do with the introduction of hourly Euston services as such, because nobody was expected to use the St Pancras trains after April 66 to go to London. These were to serve the intermediate stations.

Altfish said:
When the Trent Valley 4 Track works on the WCML were being carried out in about 2001/2 (IIRC) there were some services from Piccadilly to St Pancras, again using the Dore chord to avoid Sheffield. I did it once.

Yes, but this "Project Rio" had a totally different purpose to the older, Cl 45-hauled trains from 1966 to 197x. The HST trains were specifically put on to relieve the WCML while work was underway (rather like, in fact, the accelerated St Pancras - Man Central trains of 1957-66).

Mark62 · 22 Aug 2019

Ash Bridge said:
Actually I think it lasted a little later than that as I'm rather sure I used the 08:01 Piccadilly-St Pancras in July or August of that year travelling as far as Chesterfield changing there from Nottingham. I have a copy of the 1974 timetable though not immediately to hand but will check later to see if my memory is correct.

I too used this service back in June 2004. It was interesting passing via Reddish North and Marple on a HST, what did surprise me though was that it also routed via the Erewash Valley Line. Not certain if this was a regular occurrence?

Well I'm envious of both of you, as I never managed to traverse the Woodhead line aboard any type of traction, something I always longed to do but sadly never managed.

The Erewash was regularly used for trains not calling at Derby or Nottingham. It was also a very fast line back then.

70014IronDuke · 22 Aug 2019

Mark62 said:
The Erewash was regularly used for trains not calling at Derby or Nottingham. It was also a very fast line back then.

In 2004? "Very fast" ? They may have removed many of the PSRs caused by subsidence that once plagued the line, but I'd be surprised if the line speed was above 80 mph. There was little need. Aside from the period of Operation Rio, as I remember, all trains stopped at either Derby or (a few) at Nottingham.
I think there was one odd Sunday working which went straight up the Erewash for a period.

Manchester to St Pancras in 1972?

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