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Penalty Fares - Thousands of Passengers Overcharged

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Starmill

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I do not to argue against the wrong done to passengers but please recognise where the seat of incompetence lies.
Parliament gave the Railway Industry a Statutory Instrument that told them what they were allowed to do last year. The wording used is quite clear to me.

Some train companies ignored it, and did what they wanted to instead.

So where does the 'seat of incompetence' lie?
 
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thedbdiboy

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Parliament gave the Railway Industry a Statutory Instrument that told them what they were allowed to do last year. The wording used is quite clear to me.

Some train companies ignored it, and did what they wanted to instead.

So where does the 'seat of incompetence' lie?

You are mixing up Parliament and the DfT. The relevant train companies are contracted to the DfT who audit them. So why has it taken them so long to pick up this error? This root of this lies in lack of oversight by suitably experienced people, I can tell you that it was not deliberately ignored.
 
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Tetchytyke

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This root of this lies in lack of oversight by suitably experienced people

DfT aren't the policeman, they're not there to make sure TOCs aren't ripping off passengers.

The TOCs and RDG should have "suitably qualified people". If they don't, well, it just goes to show they can't be trusted to have Penalty Fares if they can't be chewed to abide by fairly clear and concise legislation.

I don't think it "deliberate" exactly, more that they don't give a toss as the overcharging is in their favour. I'm sure they'd be more attentive if it was the other way around.
 

thedbdiboy

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DfT aren't the policeman, they're not there to make sure TOCs aren't ripping off passengers.

The TOCs and RDG should have "suitably qualified people". If they don't, well, it just goes to show they can't be trusted to have Penalty Fares if they can't be chewed to abide by fairly clear and concise legislation.

I don't think it "deliberate" exactly, more that they don't give a toss as the overcharging is in their favour. I'm sure they'd be more attentive if it was the other way around.

I'm sorry but the government specifies and directs how the railway operates - so yes, the DfT are the policemen. The industry is not privatised at arms length, it is micromanaged from Horseferry Road. To paraphrase your reply, the DfT bears ultimate responsibility to ensure that RDG and TOCs are sufficiently equipped to discharge their duties. It's taken a few years to reach criticality but last year's massive timetable launch failure finally exposed these sorts of gaps, which is why the Williams review is currently happening.

You'd be amazed at the things that have happened that have lost TOCs money, at least for a time, without anyone noticing because of the same gaps in capability!
 

furlong

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DfT aren't the policeman, they're not there to make sure TOCs aren't ripping off passengers.
But that statement is part of the problem - the DfT bears ultimate responsibility but has divided up and delegated overlapping parts of its role to several different bodies, and each one then prefers to hope one of the others will deal with any tricky problems in the areas that overlap and their first instinct is then often to pass the buck and do nothing.
 

sheff1

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A sorry state of affairs if TOCs fail to ensure they have suitably competent people in place to implement legal requirments and then try to hide behind "well the DfT haven't ensured we employ suitably qualified staff".
 
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js1000

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An RDG spokesman said: “When people haven’t paid to travel, it’s important for train companies to take a firm but fair approach because fare dodging denies the railway around £200 million a year which could otherwise be invested to improve services for all passengers.

“People who have been charged a penalty fare shouldn’t be overcharged, though.

“We have investigated this issue and will ensure that staff have the right advice and people affected are reimbursed quickly and easily.”
Why do the train companies try to condone their actions? They've broken the law and overcharged. Just own up. It's this embedded 'we can do no wrong' mentality in the rail industry that irritates passengers.

I have no problem with the principle penalty fares. What I have a problem with (and many on here will probably agree) is ill-qualified employees on short-term contracts who are administering penalty fares and possess insufficient knowledge of the law that such a role naturally entails. It's an endemic problem with penalty fares.
 
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Hadders

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What I have a problem with (and many on here will probably agree) is ill-qualified employees on short-term contracts who are administering penalty fares and possess insufficient knowledge of the law that such a role naturally entails.

It's the management rather than the staff who are the problem.
 

Starmill

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So why has it taken them so long to pick up this error?
Why doesn't the TOC have the competence to comply with the legislation internally? General legislative changes in things like consumer rights, data protection and health and safety have to be dealt with in this way. If the law changes, businesses practices may need to be reviewed and updated.

An attempt to blame the DfT because some TOCs took the view that they needn't comply with legislation is an interesting angle? Particularly when, conveniently, they ignored a rule that meant they could charge more?
 

Starmill

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lack of oversight by suitably experienced people
The error has been pointed out many times on this forum several times over several cases since the new rules were published.

If you're saying that some people on an internet forum have more competence to read an SI than management staff in train companies, that's a fairly severe criticism of their competence? Who exactly is working at the TOCs that it's this bad!? Donald Trump??

Maybe if they're struggling so hard for experienced staff, they should come onto this forum to ask for advice!?
You'd be amazed at the things that have happened that have lost TOCs money, at least for a time, without anyone noticing because of the same gaps in capability!
Gaps in capability are one thing. Obvious errors, spotted on an online forum by some enthusiasts in a few minutes of reading... quite another.
 

Starmill

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ill-qualified employees on short-term contracts who are administering penalty fares and possess insufficient knowledge of the law that such a role naturally entails
Exactly. I suppose we'll be expected to believe that low-paid contract staff without railway specific training, and a shocking absence of knowledge, is also somehow the fault of the DfT and not the TOC who used them?
 

furlong

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So why has it taken them so long to pick up this error?
Because the SRA was abolished and replaced effectively with...nothing? So I think policy and rules that should have continued to evolve as conditions changed became frozen in time and the TOCs became more and more confident about ignoring the parts that they didn't like and which the DfT didn't enforce but which nobody was willing to review and make some hard decisions and update. The DfT then seems to have done a smoke and mirrors "simplification" of the whole thing last year, stripping away most of the bits the TOCs were blatantly ignoring without providing any new solutions to the underlying problems. With the rewrite, the fact that it was always double the normal fare (not the highest available one) became more obvious, but this was the same in the old rules - I don't think the DfT actually changed anything in this respect last year. (The railway had just applied its own interpretation of 'full', but when you consider the whole context I think the 'without any railcard type of discount' meaning is the only consistent one.) Meanwhile some TOCs started to create alternative schemes with higher "penalties" by "misusing" the DfT's change to the byelaw 18 penalty (which has to my knowledge still not yet been examined properly by the courts, but an FOI on the matter several years ago worryingly couldn't locate the relevant files).

E.g. Perhaps the most blatantly ignored requirements were the "For this reason, we will not allow tickets to be sold on penalty fares trains unless..." conditions that were almost universally ignored and have now been deleted, which leaves the original problem they were trying to address unsolved, viz. "The basic principle of any penalty fares scheme is that passengers must buy their tickets before they get on their train. If passengers find that they can buy their ticket on the train from the conductor or guard, it undermines this message."

And I think the most serious problem for the reputation of the scheme now is the removal of the fast and separate PERTIS machines, so it is no longer possible quickly to obtain a permit to travel when the slow and complicated TVM or ticket office is busy. So the valid excuses of "the queue was too long" or "I couldn't use the machine because it was too complicated to find the ticket I needed or because I wanted to pay cash" now undermine the scheme. But new technologies are available so there could be other solutions. "Queue too long or machine not issuing tickets and unable to buy a smartphone ticket? Prove you were at the station at that time by telling me the memorable random discount code word that changes every few minutes and was given at the top of the TVM (or on the CIS or PA)." Without the correct discount code for your journey, you'll pay a higher "late purchase" fare. People these days are used to the idea of a discount code (and this code could be printed on the 'Promise to Pay' where those are available), and labelling it 'late purchase' helps with the message to buy before starting the journey.
 
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ainsworth74

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Exactly. I suppose we'll be expected to believe that low-paid contract staff without railway specific training, and a shocking absence of knowledge, is also somehow the fault of the DfT and not the TOC who used them?

Hmm I can't help but suspect that it may very well be, at least in part, the fault of the DfT who have tight control of headcounts and costs and yet want Penalty Fares schemes rolled out on a massive scale. Well, if you want a scheme that needs boots on the ground but don't want to increase headcount and costs? That suggests only one way of doing it...
 

Starmill

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Hmm I can't help but suspect that it may very well be, at least in part, the fault of the DfT
Interesting then given that at the start of the Northern franchise they said there would be a movement away from the use of contracted staff to bring them in house, when in fact the opposite has happened. The franchise agreement also placed weight on 'franchise employees' - but people on this forum say that Northern consider the Carlisle staff to fulfil this requirement. There does not seem to be anybody who actually thinks these staff do a particularly good job - from passengers to employees to former director Alex Hynes, who described their use as 'suboptimal'.
the TOCs became more and more confident about ignoring the parts that they didn't like
This is the crux of the matter.
 

thedbdiboy

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Why doesn't the TOC have the competence to comply with the legislation internally? General legislative changes in things like consumer rights, data protection and health and safety have to be dealt with in this way. If the law changes, businesses practices may need to be reviewed and updated.
An attempt to blame the DfT because some TOCs took the view that they needn't comply with legislation is an interesting angle? Particularly when, conveniently, they ignored a rule that meant they could charge more?
Nothing I have said is intended to imply that the TOCs don't have responsibility for the mistake; the issue I have been trying to point out is that the DfT not only has oversight of those TOCs but micromanages much of their activity and that they have accounatibility too.
 

js1000

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Exactly. I suppose we'll be expected to believe that low-paid contract staff without railway specific training, and a shocking absence of knowledge, is also somehow the fault of the DfT and not the TOC who used them?
My view is that RPI agents should be directly employed by the TOC. At the very least there should be a directly employed Supervisor in a group of RPIs.

The reality is that 'customer service' does not exist with third party/sub-contractors. It's the same in other industries such as construction - they do what they want to make as much money. There have been multiple horror stories on here of RPIs not using discretion and incorrectly issuing penalty fares to disabled passengers with a permit. Others have tried to issue penalty fares for passengers purchasing a monthly season ticket at the destination which is logically daft.

TOCs just want to wash their hands of legal liability and potentially embarrassing arguments between passengers & RPIs at stations (i.e. third parties don't have to wear a hi-vis jacket with 'Northern' on it). The DfT are incredibly weak for not enforcing stricter standards as part of the Penalty Fare changes made last year.
 

thedbdiboy

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Exactly. I suppose we'll be expected to believe that low-paid contract staff without railway specific training, and a shocking absence of knowledge, is also somehow the fault of the DfT and not the TOC who used them?

My view is that RPI agents should be directly employed by the TOC. At the very least there should be a directly employed Supervisor in a group of RPIs.

To paraphrase Starmill, I suppose we should believe that it can't be helped that a contract let and specified by the DfT allows for contract staff to be employed in the manner suggested. The point I have been trying to get across is that the current contracting and specifying mechanism does not have the depth of skill and experience required to ensure that these issues are managed properly. That is because since 2005, civil servants rather than a railway authority have been in charge - people who, however well qualified, will work in rail for six months or a year, and then move on to air, or roads, or Brexit or whatever. The strength in depth of experience is not cultivated sufficiently anywhere (TOC, RDG or DfT to help mitigate poorly thought out or implemented policy decisions, or (dare I say it) to effectively challenge, channel and manage Ministerial whim. Where there has been effort to mitigate this, it is in the area of operational competence, but the biggest weakness is in expertise to manage fares, ticketing , revenue protection and other similar commercial areas, and we are seeing again and again the consequences of this in poor customer/passenger experience.
 

Hadders

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Interestingly I had some dealings with the DfT earlier this year through my work (nothing to do with rail). The people I was dealing with were competent people but one thing they did say to me is that the only way to be successful within the civil service these days is to move roles, anyone staying in the ame role for more than a couple of years would be considered as unambitious and would not find it easy to progress through the salary scale.

This is concerning for any area that requires a very high degree of expert expertise, such as railway ticketing.
 

RJ

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Interestingly I had some dealings with the DfT earlier this year through my work (nothing to do with rail). The people I was dealing with were competent people but one thing they did say to me is that the only way to be successful within the civil service these days is to move roles, anyone staying in the ame role for more than a couple of years would be considered as unambitious and would not find it easy to progress through the salary scale.

This is concerning for any area that requires a very high degree of expert expertise, such as railway ticketing.

It is generally the case that moving around is the best way of getting promoted to higher grades and commanding more money. If you do so, you build up a bigger network of contacts, showcase your talents to a wider audience, enhance transferable skills and increase your bargaining powers when moving upwards into a different role. In some business, grade progression within a role is either a a thing of the past or akin to climbing a greasy pole.

If you're really passionate about what you do and are happy to remain at the same level or wait several years for a chance to compete for a promotion then that is fine. There's always the opportunity to set up a side hustle to get some more coin.
 
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infobleep

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Because the SRA was abolished and replaced effectively with...nothing? So I think policy and rules that should have continued to evolve as conditions changed became frozen in time and the TOCs became more and more confident about ignoring the parts that they didn't like and which the DfT didn't enforce but which nobody was willing to review and make some hard decisions and update. The DfT then seems to have done a smoke and mirrors "simplification" of the whole thing last year, stripping away most of the bits the TOCs were blatantly ignoring without providing any new solutions to the underlying problems. With the rewrite, the fact that it was always double the normal fare (not the highest available one) became more obvious, but this was the same in the old rules - I don't think the DfT actually changed anything in this respect last year. (The railway had just applied its own interpretation of 'full', but when you consider the whole context I think the 'without any railcard type of discount' meaning is the only consistent one.) Meanwhile some TOCs started to create alternative schemes with higher "penalties" by "misusing" the DfT's change to the byelaw 18 penalty (which has to my knowledge still not yet been examined properly by the courts, but an FOI on the matter several years ago worryingly couldn't locate the relevant files).

E.g. Perhaps the most blatantly ignored requirements were the "For this reason, we will not allow tickets to be sold on penalty fares trains unless..." conditions that were almost universally ignored and have now been deleted, which leaves the original problem they were trying to address unsolved, viz. "The basic principle of any penalty fares scheme is that passengers must buy their tickets before they get on their train. If passengers find that they can buy their ticket on the train from the conductor or guard, it undermines this message."

And I think the most serious problem for the reputation of the scheme now is the removal of the fast and separate PERTIS machines, so it is no longer possible quickly to obtain a permit to travel when the slow and complicated TVM or ticket office is busy. So the valid excuses of "the queue was too long" or "I couldn't use the machine because it was too complicated to find the ticket I needed or because I wanted to pay cash" now undermine the scheme. But new technologies are available so there could be other solutions. "Queue too long or machine not issuing tickets and unable to buy a smartphone ticket? Prove you were at the station at that time by telling me the memorable random discount code word that changes every few minutes and was given at the top of the TVM (or on the CIS or PA)." Without the correct discount code for your journey, you'll pay a higher "late purchase" fare. People these days are used to the idea of a discount code (and this code could be printed on the 'Promise to Pay' where those are available), and labelling it 'late purchase' helps with the message to buy before starting the journey.
I can assure you as someone who is dyslexic and not good at remembering previous details, I might not remember such a code but I would write it down providing there was an obvious clearly written instruction saying to do so. Not that I could guarantee I'd remember to do this everytime.

As for complicated ticket machines, a friend ccwent up to a TMV the other day. It was left on the screen of anytime single to our destination, so they bought it.

What they should have bought was a super off peak single. The difference was only 5p in this case but given so many places don't have super off peak singles, let alone off peak singles, you can forgive them in not thinking to check. They also live in London so don't buy many paper tickets. I don't want this to decend into the complexities of ticketing types, those discussions have already taken place on here. I use it to show that if it is complicated already then I don't think making it more complicated when someone is unable to buy a ticket would help.
 

ten7

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https://www.londontravelwatch.org.uk/news/view?id=777&x[0]=news/list London Travelwatch are calling for industry to refund passengers affected by this in full. RDG apparently agreed to refund only the difference. The regulations don’t seem to have anything to deal with cases like this. Although had the appeals bodies allowed these cases, refunds should have been in full according to the regulations. So does this not mean refunds should be in full in these cases?
 

furlong

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You might see being proactive in making the offer as an attempt by the companies to limit their liability at a level below what people might otherwise be entitled to receive. As we said higher up this thread - it's not really something the operators have any discretion over and if they don't repay in full with additional compensation added on, someone might decide to find out what the courts think about it all. Also, anyone affected in a similar way prior to the date stated might also try to get their money back if they consider that the old version of the rules said essentially the same things. (This might also include people who allowed the companies to deduct a fare from their refund after winning an appeal.)
 

swt_passenger

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The London Travelwatch statement is nearly 3 weeks old, and their verified rep had posted it in our “general discussion” forum, (without reply) on the day it was issued.

My question is do LTW actually have sharp enough teeth to get RDG to do anything?
 

bakerstreet

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Saw this poster.

Two things struck me as interesting.

1. The headline ‘regulations’ rather than ‘refunds’ (made me less likely to read it, although I still read it)

2. That they are confident that all penalty fares for more than £20 were given for the correct reason.

That may be true. It may not.

Anyway, am posting here for info.

upload_2019-9-23_23-18-46.jpeg
 
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